[Discussion] JT Miller, is he tradeable?

[Junkyard Dog]

1 minute ago, HKSR said:

Really??  I don't see it that way.  I see him more of a RHD version of Rathbone.  Maybe a bit better, but not to the point where I'd suggest the Rangers would be insane to move him right now.  Even the article shows, it would take Lundkvist, 1st, 2nd, and maybe another prospect to be equal value to Miller.

You haven't seen him enough then. 

 

If that's what they want to give up I would be happy to take it. Article says they want Schenn too.

[HKSR]

Just now, Junkyard Dog said:

You haven't seen him enough then. 

 

If that's what they want to give up I would be happy to take it. Article says they want Schenn too.

I'll have to see if I can find some more clips on him. 

 

If we can get value on Schenn, then that's a big win lol

[komodo0921]

54 minutes ago, HKSR said:

So clearly a hot topic right now is what to do with Miller. 

 

I'm in the boat that we keep him if his salary demands are no greater than $8.5M AAV.  I can show that mathematically, we have the cap for this moving into the next 4 years.

 

Others are saying to trade him.  For these folks, I'm really curious what trade partners you can find that have the kind of packages you would need such that Rutherford and company wouldn't end up with a loss in the loss column for the trade.

 

JT Miller is currently 12th overall in NHL scoring.  Is a 1C 'power forward', plays on PP and PK, is defensively sound, strong on the puck, has a great shot but is also a fantastic playmaker, plays with grit and sandpaper, good on the faceoff dot, is a natural born leader, and has the swagger that you would want in playoff warrior.  Really one of the most complete forwards we have ever had in Canucks colours. 

 

The only way I could see JTM being moved would be if JR were to give up on the season and re-visiting the youth movement would be on the plate.

Clearly, the Canucks are on fire and a playoff spot is still the goal. Miller is untouchable.

 

[Ghostsof1915]

How about, wait until a week before the trade deadline and see where we stand. 

I'd trade Pearson for a 2nd or 3rd if there were any takers. 

[Curmudgeon]

1 hour ago, Junkyard Dog said:

Next two drafts are deep.

So what. There could be maybe ten really good players and everybody else is a prospect. And unless Vancouver acquires a number of first round picks, they are only going to get one of the top 32 players. One. So it doesn't matter how deep the draft is when you only get one selection in the top 32. It might be an Elias Pettersson or it might be a Brendan Gaunce.  I would never trade a legitimate star for a lottery ticket.

[PunjabiCanucks]

Boeser should get near $7.5 to 8.

 

We have 10M in cap space

---

Pearson Dickinson Motte Chiasson Poolmon and anyone on a minimal deal should be traded even if its for a late pick.

 

Trade anyone of the above and get Kane retained from the Sharks...

he could be a cheap salary to play mid 6 role

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Miller and Horvat Hoglander are the real payments due the next year.

 

I hope we can get all 3 under 20M- hopefully cap goes up somewhat by then

[Coconuts]

48 minutes ago, Ghostsof1915 said:

How about, wait until a week before the trade deadline and see where we stand. 

I'd trade Pearson for a 2nd or 3rd if there were any takers. 

If they're in the mix they probably let them go for it, but there's no guarantee. If they're a ways out of it he should be on the table. 

 

But if they keep him, go for it, and miss they should absolutely be considering moving him at or prior to the draft. 

[Junkyard Dog]

27 minutes ago, Curmudgeon said:

So what. There could be maybe ten really good players and everybody else is a prospect. And unless Vancouver acquires a number of first round picks, they are only going to get one of the top 32 players. One. So it doesn't matter how deep the draft is when you only get one selection in the top 32. It might be an Elias Pettersson or it might be a Brendan Gaunce.  I would never trade a legitimate star for a lottery ticket.

You forgot to quote all of this and missed the entire point.

 

Quote

 

And a lot of cap space saved that can be used towards bolstering the defense and/or etc when we decide we're taking that next step to becoming a long-term playoff team.

 

Cap space and a stock of good young talent is what you need to reshape the roster. Next two drafts are deep. 

 

It's about creating a better window of opportunity to become a long-term contender. Any choice we make will present risks. The risks of keeping Miller and not being able to fill the holes we have holding us back due to a lack of cap space, while having a shorter window when we're already not a consistent playoff team, while risking Miller walking for nothing... 

 

They all present a bigger risk to me than aiming to build a long-term playoff team, especially when we already have a young enough core in place with Petey, Hughes, Pod, Hog, Boeser, Demko.

 

You need cap space and prospects to rebuild the roster. We'll get both when moving Miller.

Edited December 17, 2021 by Junkyard Dog

[VC420]

I believe this team is good enough to compete. Trading Miller for picks and prospects will lengthen our competitive window but will also make it smaller. Trading Miller now makes the team less likely to find success but more likely to prolong success. 

 

The major point that I find many of the pro-trade Miller fans omit is that they make the trade Miller argument under the assumption that the picks/prospects we get for him are going to be top 6 forwards/top 4 dmen. Only playoff teams would be looking to add Miller which means a pick somewhere between 20 - 30th overall which is a player far from guaranteed to be as good as Miller. What if the player we pick is a bust? What if the prospect we get on top of the pick doesn't end up a top 6 forward/top 4 dman? I don't want our team to be selling out good players in a never ending quest to get better players. If we constantly sell out the present for the promise of the future then we find ourselves never succeeding in the present.

 

People are arguing to trade a proven top line forward for a chance that we can get something better down the road. The fact is we were supposed to be a playoff team heading into this season. Underperformance from Petterson, Boeser and Bo  (not Miller) among others early on greatly affected how the start of our season went. We have just one 6 games in a row with Miller being on a 6 game point streak  and people are talking about trading him. How many teams seriously consider trading their best player for picks and prospects that MIGHT make the team better 3-4 years from now. There are guys who continue to excel into their mid 30s, and there are star prospects who never excel. I find it nonsensical to assume that the scenario you like the best to be the most likely. Miller might continue to perform well into his 30s or the guys we get could become great players, none of us know what will actually be best for this team. Hindsight is a b**** as they say.

 

My personal opinion is that we keep Miller for the remainder of season and see if this team can get to the level many expected them to be at this year. Let it be known that Miller can be pried away for a high price during the offseason, keep the phone close by and see what other teams offer. If this team rebounds, makes the playoffs and finishes strong then obviously plans should change. I really like this team, and I really hope we can continue our strong play under Boudreau and would rather wait to see if he can coach this team back to being competitive rather than assume the worst and trade for a pretty picture of a brighter tomorrow.

 

As I said, it all depends on how well we continue to play.

[Coconuts]

3 minutes ago, VC420 said:

I believe this team is good enough to compete. Trading Miller for picks and prospects will lengthen our competitive window but will also make it smaller. Trading Miller now makes the team less likely to find success but more likely to prolong success. 

 

The major point that I find many of the pro-trade Miller fans omit is that they make the trade Miller argument under the assumption that the picks/prospects we get for him are going to be top 6 forwards/top 4 dmen. Only playoff teams would be looking to add Miller which means a pick somewhere between 20 - 30th overall which is a player far from guaranteed to be as good as Miller. What if the player we pick is a bust? What if the prospect we get on top of the pick doesn't end up a top 6 forward/top 4 dman? I don't want our team to be selling out good players in a never ending quest to get better players. If we constantly sell out the present for the promise of the future then we find ourselves never succeeding in the present.

 

People are arguing to trade a proven top line forward for a chance that we can get something better down the road. The fact is we were supposed to be a playoff team heading into this season. Underperformance from Petterson, Boeser and Bo  (not Miller) among others early on greatly affected how the start of our season went. We have just one 6 games in a row with Miller being on a 6 game point streak  and people are talking about trading him. How many teams seriously consider trading their best player for picks and prospects that MIGHT make the team better 3-4 years from now. There are guys who continue to excel into their mid 30s, and there are star prospects who never excel. I find it nonsensical to assume that the scenario you like the best to be the most likely. Miller might continue to perform well into his 30s or the guys we get could become great players, none of us know what will actually be best for this team. Hindsight is a b**** as they say.

 

My personal opinion is that we keep Miller for the remainder of season and see if this team can get to the level many expected them to be at this year. Let it be known that Miller can be pried away for a high price during the offseason, keep the phone close by and see what other teams offer. If this team rebounds, makes the playoffs and finishes strong then obviously plans should change. I really like this team, and I really hope we can continue our strong play under Boudreau and would rather wait to see if he can coach this team back to being competitive rather than assume the worst and trade for a pretty picture of a brighter tomorrow.

 

As I said, it all depends on how well we continue to play.

On the flip side, many who argue for keeping Miller do so under the assumption that he wants to stay. 

 

We don't know what Miller wants, he may not even know. But one can assume he wasn't thrilled to leave Tampa, make less on his current deal to due BC taxes, and watch his former teammates win back to back cups. He may not want to stay in Canada, he may want to play in the US. He may want to play for a team that resembles more of a contender, we don't know. 

 

But assuming it's as simple as keep Miller vs trade him is silly, because there's no guarantee he even wants to stay. There are plenty of folks who believe we can't afford to let him walk for nothing, there's a very real chance he does if he gets to UFA. 

[EternalCanuckFan]

8 minutes ago, Coconuts said:

On the flip side, many who argue for keeping Miller do so under the assumption that he wants to stay. 

 

We don't know what Miller wants, he may not even know. But one can assume he wasn't thrilled to leave Tampa, make less on his current deal to due BC taxes, and watch his former teammates win back to back cups. He may not want to stay in Canada, he may want to play in the US. He may want to play for a team that resembles more of a contender, we don't know. 

 

But assuming it's as simple as keep Miller vs trade him is silly, because there's no guarantee he even wants to stay. There are plenty of folks who believe we can't afford to let him walk for nothing, there's a very real chance he does if he gets to UFA. 

The other factor of Miller staying is the fact that Miller will be 30 when his current contract is up.  Even if Miller wants to say, then how long does he want to stay for?  Is Miller looking for an 8-year deal?  At what AAV?  How much longer can Miller maintain his level of play on his next contract?  If Miller signs for $8.5M AAV, then even with the cap likely rising in the next few years, does that end up being good value and, again, for how long?

 

If JR wants to go all in with the current group, then sure, keep Miller for this and next year.  Miller's value may never be as high however.

 

Considering JR already doesn't seem to think the Canucks are in a position to trade 1sts however, I am personally expecting Miller to at the very least be shopped aggressively.  If the Canucks don't like the return and they keep winning, then sure, maybe they won't deal him this year.

[VC420]

7 minutes ago, Coconuts said:

On the flip side, many who argue for keeping Miller do so under the assumption that he wants to stay. 

 

We don't know what Miller wants, he may not even know. But one can assume he wasn't thrilled to leave Tampa, make less on his current deal to due BC taxes, and watch his former teammates win back to back cups. He may not want to stay in Canada, he may want to play in the US. He may want to play for a team that resembles more of a contender, we don't know. 

 

But assuming it's as simple as keep Miller vs trade him is silly, because there's no guarantee he even wants to stay. There are plenty of folks who believe we can't afford to let him walk for nothing, there's a very real chance he does if he gets to UFA. 

Very true, but none of us know what Miller wants. If by the end of next year we are top 5 team in the league that would definitely cause anyone to consider resigning at a lower price than the open market, and if we are bottom feeders still at that time then no way he resigns. Also if the assets we acquire for Miller turn out to be busts then that is no different than letting him walk for nothing, probably worse actually. No roster player likes it when you trade a top player like Miller and get picks and prospects. I doubt guys in their late 20's early 30s like hearing that they need to wait 3-4 more years before the team is competitive again. 

 

Im not against trading Miller, he may be my 2nd favourite Canuck right now but only a fool gets too attached in the sports world. Im just against trading him anytime soon. The boys are playing themselves back into playoff contention, Miller has been great, Boeser looks better playing with Miller, and the team finally seems to be enjoying the game again.

I think we need to see how this team plays till the TDL. If we regress, then anything is on the table, if we progress then let it ride and see where we can go. 

 

im sure Rutherford and our next GM will have a clear idea of Millers future intentions and I will trust em to make the right decision.

[BarnBurner]

2 hours ago, HKSR said:

 

 

So would you all be happy if you woke up and read this post by Vintage Canuck:

 

[Trade] JT Miller traded to Nashville for Cody Glass and a 1st Round Pick

 

Not at all. Nashville is playing well so far this year, so the 1st round could be in the 20+ range, and secondly, I don't consider Glass a blue chip prospect. 

 

Losing Miller's pizzazz would hurt, so the price would have to be overwhelming.

[Coconuts]

11 minutes ago, EternalCanuckFan said:

The other factor of Miller staying is the fact that Miller will be 30 when his current contract is up.  Even if Miller wants to say, then how long does he want to stay for?  Is Miller looking for an 8-year deal?  At what AAV?  How much longer can Miller maintain his level of play on his next contract?  If Miller signs for $8.5M AAV, then even with the cap likely rising in the next few years, does that end up being good value and, again, for how long?

 

If JR wants to go all in with the current group, then sure, keep Miller for this and next year.  Miller's value may never be as high however.

 

Considering JR already doesn't seem to think the Canucks are in a position to trade 1sts however, I am personally expecting Miller to at the very least be shopped aggressively.  If the Canucks don't like the return and they keep winning, then sure, maybe they won't deal him this year.

All valid points, and I agree with them. And yes, Miller's trade value will likely never be higher for the Canucks than it will be before this season's deadline.

 

I agree he'll probably be shopped, particularly if we're out of the mix which is still possible. We're still a playoff longshot at this point.

 

I could see him being moved leading up to the draft if he's not moved at the deadline. 

 

6 minutes ago, VC420 said:

Very true, but none of us know what Miller wants. If by the end of next year we are top 5 team in the league that would definitely cause anyone to consider resigning at a lower price than the open market, and if we are bottom feeders still at that time then no way he resigns. Also if the assets we acquire for Miller turn out to be busts then that is no different than letting him walk for nothing, probably worse actually. No roster player likes it when you trade a top player like Miller and get picks and prospects. I doubt guys in their late 20's early 30s like hearing that they need to wait 3-4 more years before the team is competitive again. 

 

Im not against trading Miller, he may be my 2nd favourite Canuck right now but only a fool gets too attached in the sports world. Im just against trading him anytime soon. The boys are playing themselves back into playoff contention, Miller has been great, Boeser looks better playing with Miller, and the team finally seems to be enjoying the game again.

I think we need to see how this team plays till the TDL. If we regress, then anything is on the table, if we progress then let it ride and see where we can go. 

 

im sure Rutherford and our next GM will have a clear idea of Millers future intentions and I will trust em to make the right decision.

It'd take a miracle for us to be a top 5 team imo, but it's not impossible. Assuming he's even still here. But yeah, if we miss this season and look to be a middling team next season I could see him walking. 

 

Picks, assets, you're right.. they're no sure thing. But such assets can be packaged for roster players too. It's all a gamble, there's always risk. And you're right about players, but if Miller goes it's likely he's not the only vet imo. 

 

I agree they should let the team play til at least shortly up to the deadline, but if we're floundering he's gotta be on the table. Likely alongside other players. But yeah, getting attached to players in sports is a losing battle. We all do it, but rare is the player who stays on a team for their whole career. Players move every season.

 

Agreed. 

[Canuck Luck]

There is no way I trade JT Miller and Schenn (218lbs & 230lbs) to the rags for draft picks and another small d man.

 

That is not the way to build a tough to play against team. 

 

Anyone wanting to trade two of our very few larger guys away are crazy imo.

[Maniwaki Canuck]

1 hour ago, Coconuts said:

On the flip side, many who argue for keeping Miller do so under the assumption that he wants to stay. 

 

We don't know what Miller wants, he may not even know. But one can assume he wasn't thrilled to leave Tampa, make less on his current deal to due BC taxes, and watch his former teammates win back to back cups. He may not want to stay in Canada, he may want to play in the US. He may want to play for a team that resembles more of a contender, we don't know. 

 

But assuming it's as simple as keep Miller vs trade him is silly, because there's no guarantee he even wants to stay. There are plenty of folks who believe we can't afford to let him walk for nothing, there's a very real chance he does if he gets to UFA. 

This is the crucial question.  I'm very much in the "keep him" camp but if he doesn't want to stay, the only question is when to move him.  While they can't extend him until next summer, an informal talk with his agent would surely reveal whether such an extension is a non-starter.  If he wants to go, he'll probably want to go sooner than later.  If he's willing to stay if the price is right, that's when things get tricky, but if they can't agree on terms, chances are they could still move him at the draft in 2022.  His value drops the longer it takes to reach a resolution. 

[N4ZZY]

3 hours ago, King Heffy said:

1st rounder and a high end prospect

Would be ideal. 

 

Not sure if the Canucks can actually get that. 

 

A 1st and Dahlin from a team like Buffalo? Seems absurd from a Sabres fan’s perspective. 

 

[N4ZZY]

2 hours ago, HKSR said:

I'll have to see if I can find some more clips on him. 

 

If we can get value on Schenn, then that's a big win lol

I’d be more than happy to include Schenn in any trade with Miller. 

 

Though, with that being said, he’s been so so so solid for us when he’s been in the line up. 

 

But hey, Schenn was signed as a depth defenseman on this team, so if we can get some pretty decent assets for him and Miller, I’m down for that. 

 

[Coconuts]

27 minutes ago, Maniwaki Canuck said:

This is the crucial question.  I'm very much in the "keep him" camp but if he doesn't want to stay, the only question is when to move him.  While they can't extend him until next summer, an informal talk with his agent would surely reveal whether such an extension is a non-starter.  If he wants to go, he'll probably want to go sooner than later.  If he's willing to stay if the price is right, that's when things get tricky, but if they can't agree on terms, chances are they could still move him at the draft in 2022.  His value drops the longer it takes to reach a resolution. 

Agreed as a whole 

 

I don't want players who don't want to be here, and I feel what he wants is often an overlooked question, which is strange because it matters.

 

If he doesn't see a future him he's def gotta go, just a matter of when like you said.

[N4ZZY]

26 minutes ago, Maniwaki Canuck said:

This is the crucial question.  I'm very much in the "keep him" camp but if he doesn't want to stay, the only question is when to move him.  While they can't extend him until next summer, an informal talk with his agent would surely reveal whether such an extension is a non-starter.  If he wants to go, he'll probably want to go sooner than later.  If he's willing to stay if the price is right, that's when things get tricky, but if they can't agree on terms, chances are they could still move him at the draft in 2022.  His value drops the longer it takes to reach a resolution. 

I think JR probably needs to start having those conversations with Miller’s agent ASAP, to get a sense and an idea of where Miller is at. If he wants to remain, the team needs to work at it and get to a decent cap and term. If he’s wanting 8M, do you keep him? What if it’s 8.5M for 5 years with a NTC in the first 3 years of that deal, do you do that deal?

 

 I think if the team waits until next year’s Trade Deadline, then it’ll be hard to get maximum value for Miller. If the team deals him this Trade Deadline, what kind of message does that send to the rest of the team battling for a playoff spot?