[Discussion with Proposals] Can we contend next season?

[BigTramFan]

I feel like we have the core to be a contender (Miller, Horvat, Pettersson, Hughes, Demko).

 

Pettersson is underperforming but form is temporary and class is permanent, so he will come right.

 

Bruce has shown that we are a team that should be making the playoffs next season. But once we get into the playoffs I just don't think we have the supporting cast to really contend. We are too soft and our compete level is lacking at important times. However, I also don't feel we are too many pieces away from being a contender.

 

In my opinion what we need is to change up the supporting cast to some bigger, meaner, playoff types to complement the core.

 

I would like to add players of this kind to support our core: Crouse, Jenner, Manson.

 

The players that I feel could be moved to accommodate these guys are: Boeser, Dickinson, Poolman.

 

Just these three changes alone would make a massive difference to the toughness of the team and would make us playoff ready imo.

 

So how could we do that?

 

Sign Boeser to $7m x 8 years, then...

 

Trade 1:

To CBJ: Boeser + Poolman

To VAN: Jenner + 2nd round pick

 

CBJ really needs to focus on building around their young core with Sillinger, Roslovic and Werenski. Laine may or may not be resigned, but Boeser is a great fit age-wise and as a sniper for their top line for years to come. CBJ are severely lacking in Dmen next season, so could do with a steady RD like Poolman on a reasonable contract. Although Jenner is their captain and has a new 4-year contract starting next season with an 8 team NTC, I think he would waive to come to a non-rebuilding team. Trading Jenner commits CBJ to getting younger. From VAN perspective Jenner is in his prime, signed for 4 more years at $3.75m and is a big bruising 3C. Jenner is also some insurance on losing Miller or Horvat when they become UFA. But ideally we keep Miller-Horvat-Jenner as our top 3 centers for the next 4 seasons.

 

Trade 2:

To ARI: Dickinson + 2nd round pick from CBJ trade

To VAN: Lawson Crouse

 

ARI collect more picks for their rebuild. VAN gets a young up and coming player in Crouse (6'4", 220lb) on pace for 40 pts this season on a tire fire of a team.

 

VAN signs Manson as UFA.

 

Lineup next season:

 

Pettersson Miller Hoglander

Crouse Horvat Garland

Pearson Jenner Podkolzin

Highmore Lammikko Motte

(Dowling)

 

OEL Myers

Hughes Manson

Schenn Hamonic

(Rathbone Burroughs)

 

Demko (Martin)

 

 

Importantly we have not moved any of our own picks, plus in moving on from Boeser we create plenty of cap space for future seasons allowing Miller, Horvat, Hogs and Podz to be resigned.

[Phil_314]

On paper I actually like it, and moving Boeser (who's still got potential but who we can't afford if we keep Miller) for a 1st line C signed at a 3rd line rate in Jenner would be a good move (I do hesitate since who knows if Boeser could really break out here after... whatever funk they're in offensively wears off).  If Jenner is down for a shutdown line role then I think I would do a move like this, since there's still wing scoring in Garland/ Podkolzin/ Petey.  I wonder though if Columbus might feel that they would be too winger-heavy (most of their best guys are wingers e.g. Bjorkstrand, Voracek, Laine... and maybe they wouldn't give up on their captain so soon (unless they want to bring up Johnson or play Sillinger/ Texier/ Roslovic bigger minutes).  

Smart move actually, trading out Dickinson to potentially get Crouse (though I think that really only works if they want to part ways, since one could assume that Crouse/ Keller/ Chychrun/ Vejmelka/ Schmaltz/ their 1st round pick this year would be their core moving forward).  If they would sign-and-trade him (he's going to be an RFA) for just another team's second and a now-redundant player then I'd do it. 

[aGENT]

Wrong game plan IMO.

[mll]

CBJ named Boone Jenner their captain and signed him to an extension that starts this coming season.  Davidson says he's part of their fabric and represents the culture they are trying to build.  It seems unlikely that they would want to move such a role model.  Jenner also shelters their younger players.  If they remove him then that role goes to players who might not be ready for it, which could hurt their development and confidence.

 

CBJ uses Sportlogiq for their tracking technology - they've even organised an analytics conference with them as sponsors.  Sportsnet using that same technology concluded that Poolman was one of the worse contracts handed out last summer.  Boeser has a 7.5M qualifying offer and no known ties to Columbus - he could just sign his qualifying offer like Laine did.

 

They are also in a rebuild and would probably be the ones trying to acquire more draft picks rather than give them up.

 

 

[BigTramFan]

1 hour ago, mll said:

CBJ named Boone Jenner their captain and signed him to an extension that starts this coming season.  Davidson says he's part of their fabric and represents the culture they are trying to build.  It seems unlikely that they would want to move such a role model.  Jenner also shelters their younger players.  If they remove him then that role goes to players who might not be ready for it, which could hurt their development and confidence.

 

CBJ uses Sportlogiq for their tracking technology - they've even organised an analytics conference with them as sponsors.  Sportsnet using that same technology concluded that Poolman was one of the worse contracts handed out last summer.  Boeser has a 7.5M qualifying offer and no known ties to Columbus - he could just sign his qualifying offer like Laine did.

 

They are also in a rebuild and would probably be the ones trying to acquire more draft picks rather than give them up.

 

 

In my proposal Boeser is already signed and then traded. So it is too late for him to sign his QO for just 1 year. I don't care what links he has/hasn't got to Columbus. Columbus would be his new home for the next 8 years. They will love him there and he will get to play with some exciting youngsters like Sillinger, Roslovic, Chinakhov, Foudy, Werenski, Boqvist, etc.

 

Yes CBJ are in a rebuild, which is why they should trade a very good player in his prime (Jenner) to get another very good player that is much younger (Boeser) and fits their core age and rebuild timeline much better.

 

Having players that mentor and shelter is great, CBJ could easily take on other veterans in other trades (along with picks even) that can mentor and shelter their young players.

 

Of course CBJ would want picks - who wouldn't. Picks are great but a 2nd round pick has about a 15% chance of getting you an impact player. So they either keep their 15% chance, or go for something more certain and net themselves a bonafide top line sniper in Boeser.

 

I'm not suggesting Poolman's contract is great. But he isn't overly expensive either. CBJ either takes Poolman in the deal or coughs up more for Boeser.

 

Poolman, $2.5m x 4 years:

39 games, 3 pts, +3

At ES: oiGF/60 = 2.1, oiGA/60 = 1.9

 

I'm sure there are plenty of Dman contracts handed out last off season that were worse...for example these guys on comparable but more expensive contracts...

 

Ceci, $3.25m x 4 years:

37 games, 10 pts, -7

At ES: oiGF/60 = 2.5, oiGA/60 = 3.1

 

Savard, $3.5m x 4 years:

42 games, 9 pts, -17

At ES: oiGF/60 = 1.9, oiGA/60 = 3.5

[BigTramFan]

2 hours ago, aGENT said:

Wrong game plan IMO.

Fair enough. And I also find myself thinking of options like trading Miller and getting younger (again). But when does it stop? We actually have some darn great core players right now. It is around the edges that we are lacking the strength to seriously contend imo.

[FaninMex]

1 hour ago, BigTramFan said:

Fair enough. And I also find myself thinking of options like trading Miller and getting younger (again). But when does it stop? We actually have some darn great core players right now. It is around the edges that we are lacking the strength to seriously contend imo.

Cannot trade Miller. We need the Center depth more than a random D, especially when the D have at least been defending. When the top 6 start scoring the D will score.

[mll]

3 hours ago, BigTramFan said:

In my proposal Boeser is already signed and then traded. So it is too late for him to sign his QO for just 1 year. I don't care what links he has/hasn't got to Columbus. Columbus would be his new home for the next 8 years. They will love him there and he will get to play with some exciting youngsters like Sillinger, Roslovic, Chinakhov, Foudy, Werenski, Boqvist, etc.

 

Yes CBJ are in a rebuild, which is why they should trade a very good player in his prime (Jenner) to get another very good player that is much younger (Boeser) and fits their core age and rebuild timeline much better.

 

Having players that mentor and shelter is great, CBJ could easily take on other veterans in other trades (along with picks even) that can mentor and shelter their young players.

 

Of course CBJ would want picks - who wouldn't. Picks are great but a 2nd round pick has about a 15% chance of getting you an impact player. So they either keep their 15% chance, or go for something more certain and net themselves a bonafide top line sniper in Boeser.

 

I'm not suggesting Poolman's contract is great. But he isn't overly expensive either. CBJ either takes Poolman in the deal or coughs up more for Boeser.

 

Poolman, $2.5m x 4 years:

39 games, 3 pts, +3

At ES: oiGF/60 = 2.1, oiGA/60 = 1.9

 

I'm sure there are plenty of Dman contracts handed out last off season that were worse...for example these guys on comparable but more expensive contracts...

 

Ceci, $3.25m x 4 years:

37 games, 10 pts, -7

At ES: oiGF/60 = 2.5, oiGA/60 = 3.1

 

Savard, $3.5m x 4 years:

42 games, 9 pts, -17

At ES: oiGF/60 = 1.9, oiGA/60 = 3.5

 

There has yet to be a sign and trade in the salary cap era.  Boeser is not worth 7M on a long term deal either.  

 

The stats you are quoting are highly influenced by goaltending.  CBJ doesn't have Demko in net.  

 

 

 

[Coconuts]

I strongly doubt it. We haven't been a consistent playoff team, let alone a contender, since the late 2000's and early 2010's. Turning a fringe playoff team to a contender is one hell of a turnaround, and I don't see it as realistic. Teams almost never jump right to contender, typically they've got to lose out come playoff time for a bit before getting over the hump. It's why you typically see a group in the mix in the final eight over the span of a few seasons. The only thing we've been consistently over these last eight (likely nine) seasons is a team that loses and misses out. 

 

Possible? Technically? Probable? Nah. 

 

But I don't see why we couldn't be in the mix for a playoff spot next season, even if Miller were to be traded. With Green gone and the organizational changes we've made I think there's room for optimism going forward; we do have some good pieces but I see our window being at least 2-3 years away. Building properly usually takes time. 

 

I don't think trying to go for a quick turnaround and trying to milk what you can from whatever's remaining of Miller's prime is the right move though. I'd move him and build around our younger core. 

[DownUndaCanuck]

I think we have a great top 6 unit of forwards, a great checking 3rd line and average 4th liners at best.

 

We have a pretty decent but far from flashy top-4 defence which may improve internally with Rathbone next year but Schenn, OEL and Myers can surely only regress. We have a dreadful bottom defensive pairing of basically AHLers, and very little depth in the press box. 

 

Of course we have a top 10 if not top 5 NHL goalie.

 

Where does that leave us? With a full off season together this team may really gel and work well. In the JB regime we've had so many changes that the team hasn't had a chance to bond together and form chemistry. I hope JR doesn't keep changing the team every chance he gets too. We've got a decent bunch of stars at the top end, we just lack depth (which you'd hope we'd be able to fill from within).

 

The glaring reason as to why we're not succeeding as well as we should is a pathetic special teams, underperforming young stars and lack of depth. With another top-4 defenceman (who should have been Hamonic in all fairness) we should be a playoff team. Hopefully another off-season and year will get Petey, Brock and Bo going properly. If not, I'd be down for a fire sale.

[DrJockitch]

I think those are both homer trade proposals and don’t think either team would take either deal. 
Think we are heading in the other direction this season and looking for youth, size and speed through prospects and picks. 
Doubt we will see players of significance coming back unless on expiring contracts to make bigger deals work. 

[JM_]

If we had 3 or 4 more wins under Green (or fired him earlier) we'd be above Calgary for a playoff spot, so yes.

 

We'll see what kind of moves JR can make. I do feel like people are expecting too much out of a Miller deal, and I'd rather keep him if we're not getting a top RHD back. 

 

I am curious what we can get for Garland or maybe Boeser, and if that might be enough. 

[aGENT]

7 hours ago, BigTramFan said:

Fair enough. And I also find myself thinking of options like trading Miller and getting younger (again). But when does it stop? We actually have some darn great core players right now. It is around the edges that we are lacking the strength to seriously contend imo.

When the young core is actually in its prime. We build for +/- 2-7 years from now.

[appleboy]

I don't think that our management is thinking next year. They are suggesting that they would like a young core that grows together and matures at the same time.

 

With their cap issues I think they will do a major reset. You might find that Petey isn't even here.

[appleboy]

The up and coming drafts are also fairly strong.

 

I can't wait to see their approach.

[Bure_Pavel]

No we will not be a contender next year, playoffs should be a reasonable goal for next year and once you get there who knows. We will not be on the level of Colorado, Tampa, or Florida by next year. Miller should be able to get a good young player (hopefully RD) to add to our core of Petey, Hughes, Horvat, Boeser, Demko, and Podkolzin.

 

?? - Petey - Boeser

Hoglander - Horvat - Podz

?? - ?? - ??

?? - ?? - ??

 

Hughes -??

OEL - Myers

?? - ??

 

Demko

??

[N4ZZY]

6 hours ago, Coconuts said:

I strongly doubt it. We haven't been a consistent playoff team, let alone a contender, since the late 2000's and early 2010's. Turning a fringe playoff team to a contender is one hell of a turnaround, and I don't see it as realistic. Teams almost never jump right to contender, typically they've got to lose out come playoff time for a bit before getting over the hump. It's why you typically see a group in the mix in the final eight over the span of a few seasons. The only thing we've been consistently over these last eight (likely nine) seasons is a team that loses and misses out. 

 

Possible? Technically? Probable? Nah. 

 

But I don't see why we couldn't be in the mix for a playoff spot next season, even if Miller were to be traded. With Green gone and the organizational changes we've made I think there's room for optimism going forward; we do have some good pieces but I see our window being at least 2-3 years away. Building properly usually takes time. 

 

I don't think trying to go for a quick turnaround and trying to milk what you can from whatever's remaining of Miller's prime is the right move though. I'd move him and build around our younger core. 

I mean, under the previous regime, we had 8 years. If that’s not ‘taking time’ I’m not sure what would qualify. 

 

[Coconuts]

3 hours ago, N4ZZY said:

I mean, under the previous regime, we had 8 years. If that’s not ‘taking time’ I’m not sure what would qualify. 

 

Sure, but it's not enough to emphasize "taking time". You've got to key in on "building properly" too. 

 

Some folks ask whether Canucks fans are patient enough to see things done properly, as opposed to having a GM who's just trying to reach the playoffs asap, my answer is haven't we already been patient? For some fans it's 40+ years of waiting, for many it's 20+, it's not as if we haven't already been waiting. If waiting a few years to JR and co to dismantle and rebuild the roster gets us closer to being a consistent playoff team as opposed to a mediocre team or bottom feeder I've no problem being patient. 

 

It's not as if I've got many other choices, it's out of our hands anyway.