Gurn Posted July 19, 2022 Share Posted July 19, 2022 10 minutes ago, Alflives said: Guys on 650 saying a news paper back east has text messages from a player involved where that player asks the victim (the morning after) if she went to the police. Why in the heck is this guy asking if the girl is going to the police if he thinks nothing bad happened? Sure is looking more and more like this wasn’t just an “incident”. As Thomas’ lawyer speak statement indicates. Sounds like this was a sexual assault, and the players involved thought so, especially since they were asking the victim if she went to the police. Here’s to hoping the victim isn’t made to look bad by these wealthy players’ Lawyers. And it’s not “alleged” if the victim was paid a settlement. It happened. It’s terrible. And those involved in the assault and it’s cover-up should be held to account. The cops investigated and there were no charges. So not a provable case in their eyes. People settle lawsuits for other reasons than guilt. Also it wasn't the players settling, it was Hockey Canada. So not even close to an 'admission of guilt' by the players. Don't misunderstand: While I don't know all the details, I think the cops messed up-I know Hockey Canada messed up, and I have no idea which players were involved. Denials by lawyers or even players that are not stated in court are not really meaning full, as there isn't a perjury charge hanging over their heads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vinny in Vancouver Posted July 19, 2022 Share Posted July 19, 2022 (edited) It sounds like some players are saying they were not involved at all whereas others' lawyers are saying they were "cleared of any wrongdoing" and some haven't said: Not involved at all: Fabbro (NAS) - sleeping in a different room Makar (COL) Connor Timmins (ARI) Robert Thomas (STL) Victor Mete (TOR) - not in the event Clague (BUF) - not in the event Kyrou - not in the event Cal Foote (TAM) Jonah Gadjovich (SJS) Maxime Comtois (ANA) Sam Steel Cleared of any wrongdoing: Dillon Dube (CAL) Jake Bean (CBJ) Carter Hart (PHI) Jordan Kyrou (STL) Colton Point (DAL) Taylor Raddysh (TAM) No Comment: Boris Katchouk (CHI) Drake Batherson (OTT) Alex Formenton (OTT) Brett Howden (VEG) Michael McLeod (NJD) Tyler Steenbergen Sources: https://www.thestar.com/sports/hockey/2022/07/18/more-players-step-forward-in-hockey-canada-sex-assault-investigation.html https://globalnews.ca/news/8935781/hockey-canada-alleged-sex-assault-probe-player-responses/ https://www.dailyfaceoff.com/robert-thomas-denies-involvement-in-alleged-sexual-assault-involving-2018-canadian-world-junior-team/ Edited July 21, 2022 by Vinny in Vancouver 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babych Posted July 19, 2022 Share Posted July 19, 2022 On 7/16/2022 at 2:09 PM, UnkNuk said: A couple of things: I didn't realize, until I read the article that gurn posted, that almost all the players on the team are now in the NHL. Which means that some of the players involved in this incident may be playing in the NHL. A theoritical legal question: if a woman, while intoxicated, agrees to a group sexual encounter and then, the next day, can't remember her agreement or regrets her agreement, what legal blame is there on the male participants? Does it make it a difference, in this situation, if the males were also intoxicated? 4 hours ago, Odd. said: That’s where it gets real tricky. Technically, you can consent while being drunk, but there’s levels to it. If you’re incapacitated, then you can’t really consent as you’re too intoxicated to make an informed decision. This is why ever since the MeToo movement, it’s been socially unacceptable to have consensual sex with someone while they’ve consumed large amounts of alcohol. It’s never a good idea, because it can go bad real quick the next day if one person doesn’t recall the full events of what happened. False memories can happen, and our brains can easily try and solve these memories and often times fill in events that never really happened or are quite different from reality. It doesn’t take much alcohol to form a blackout to some people. This is where a lot of guilt, shame, and uncertainty comes from. Theres also been lots of talk of being able to rescind consent, but there’s a little grey area. Obviously if you rescind consent in the middle of sex, then the sex can no longer be consentual. However, where a lot of people disagree is after the sex is finished, if you’re able to rescind consent after the deeds been done, and often times people will use the ‘excuse’ that they were pressured to have sex, coerced, or felt they had to do it despite not really wanting to, and therefore treat it like it was non consensual despite giving verbal consent. MeToo believes verbal consent is not enough, and the parties involved must have an enthusiastic response or reaction to consent, in order for it to be actually consensual. At the end of the day, if you’re prohibited from driving a motor vehicle, being intoxicated in public, or being too intoxicated to be at public places, sex should also be off limits. This is a great question, and I really appreciate the answer given. I want to emphasize for anyone out there that isn't sure: ASSUME CONSENT CANNOT BE GIVEN IF THE OTHER PARTY IS INTOXICATED!!! 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mll Posted July 19, 2022 Share Posted July 19, 2022 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Vintage Canuck- Posted July 20, 2022 Share Posted July 20, 2022 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gurn Posted July 20, 2022 Share Posted July 20, 2022 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alflives Posted July 20, 2022 Share Posted July 20, 2022 Interesting how the reporters, like Westhead, write “alleged sexual assault” when referring to what happened while the lawyers for the players write “alleged incident”. Hockey Canada’s lawyers and the players’ lawyers are clearly all working together and trying to blame the girl - who was the victim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mll Posted July 20, 2022 Share Posted July 20, 2022 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EddieVedder Posted July 20, 2022 Share Posted July 20, 2022 8 hours ago, Alflives said: Interesting how the reporters, like Westhead, write “alleged sexual assault” when referring to what happened while the lawyers for the players write “alleged incident”. Hockey Canada’s lawyers and the players’ lawyers are clearly all working together and trying to blame the girl - who was the victim. Uh, Because it is an alleged assault. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alflives Posted July 20, 2022 Share Posted July 20, 2022 13 minutes ago, EddieVedder said: Uh, Because it is an alleged assault. Not according to the lawyers representing the players. In every statement coming from the players the word used to describe the assault is “incident”. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heretic Posted July 20, 2022 Share Posted July 20, 2022 My take, anyone that was there but did not get involved is just as guilty - worse, why didn't they try and stop it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JM_ Posted July 20, 2022 Share Posted July 20, 2022 2 minutes ago, Heretic said: My take, anyone that was there but did not get involved is just as guilty - worse, why didn't they try and stop it. thats a hard stance with some teenagers, tho isn't it? some of them are very immature at 16/17 and would stand there like dummies not knowing what to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heretic Posted July 20, 2022 Share Posted July 20, 2022 5 minutes ago, JM_ said: thats a hard stance with some teenagers, tho isn't it? some of them are very immature at 16/17 and would stand there like dummies not knowing what to do. "It turns out kids as young as three know what it means to do the right thing. A new study published in Current Biology from University of Manchester-based psychologist Keith Jensen used puppets to test whether three and five year olds have a sense of “restorative justice.”"https://www.mentalfloss.com/article/65366/study-shows-young-children-know-right-wrong Sorry, they knew what to do. Fear? Sure, 1 against 8 would be fearful - but they could have done something - like, go in the hall and pull the fire alarm, or yell, etc...etc... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JM_ Posted July 20, 2022 Share Posted July 20, 2022 19 minutes ago, 6of1_halfdozenofother said: If they're 16/17, pretty sure drinking would have been illegal. edit - further, the roster for the 2017-18 WJHC roster for TC shows them as being 19 or 20 years old at the time of the event. ah thanks I thought they were younger. 17 minutes ago, Heretic said: "It turns out kids as young as three know what it means to do the right thing. A new study published in Current Biology from University of Manchester-based psychologist Keith Jensen used puppets to test whether three and five year olds have a sense of “restorative justice.”"https://www.mentalfloss.com/article/65366/study-shows-young-children-know-right-wrong Sorry, they knew what to do. Fear? Sure, 1 against 8 would be fearful - but they could have done something - like, go in the hall and pull the fire alarm, or yell, etc...etc... I just think with kids you have take it case by case. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Heffy Posted July 20, 2022 Share Posted July 20, 2022 33 minutes ago, JM_ said: ah thanks I thought they were younger. I just think with kids you have take it case by case. Most of these guys were in leadership positions on their CHL teams. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-DLC- Posted July 20, 2022 Author Share Posted July 20, 2022 1 hour ago, Heretic said: My take, anyone that was there but did not get involved is just as guilty - worse, why didn't they try and stop it. 1 hour ago, JM_ said: thats a hard stance with some teenagers, tho isn't it? some of them are very immature at 16/17 and would stand there like dummies not knowing what to do. Kids these days have enough information on bullying/bad behaviour and it's really no secret anymore. Don't be a bystander. To be a bystander is to do nothing...if you're the audience you're part of a mob (mentality) that puts the victim at a huge disadvantage. Me vs them. Especially if it's a matter of people encouraging, cheering on, laughing, etc. You are participating in that you're helping to set the tone during an incident where someone's being victimized. Being immature is no longer an excuse....if you're old enough to be out there navigating the world on your own, there are guidelines and responsibilities that come with that. Leave, tell someone, don't be part of it. Behaviour that takes advantage of and violates others, especially when/if they're extremely vulnerable, is unacceptable. If it's in a demeaning/demoralizing (and criminal) way when they're in a state that they can't even defend themselves, it's deplorable. And anyone standing by "watching" needs to really rethink that. Even kids learn about inappropriate touching and respecting other's bodies/personal space so, by the time kids are teenagers, they need to start practicing that. Or, pay the consequences. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-DLC- Posted July 20, 2022 Author Share Posted July 20, 2022 56 minutes ago, JM_ said: ah thanks I thought they were younger. I just think with kids you have take it case by case. Based on? What would excuse them in your view? Peer pressure is a very real thing but, in this day and age, kids need to simply walk away and tell someone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JM_ Posted July 20, 2022 Share Posted July 20, 2022 1 minute ago, -DLC- said: Kids these days have enough information on bullying/bad behaviour and it's really no secret anymore. Don't be a bystander. To be a bystander is to do nothing...if you're the audience you're part of a mob (mentality) that puts the victim at a huge disadvantage. Me vs them. Especially if it's a matter of people encouraging, cheering on, laughing, etc. You are participating in that you're helping to set the tone during an incident where someone's being victimized. Being immature is no longer an excuse....if you're old enough to be out there navigating the world on your own, there are guidelines and responsibilities that come with that. Leave, tell someone, don't be part of it. Behaviour that takes advantage of and violates others, especially when/if they're extremely vulnerable, is unacceptable. If it's in a demeaning/demoralizing (and criminal) way when they're in a state that they can't even defend themselves, it's deplorable. And anyone standing by "watching" needs to really rethink that. Even kids learn about inappropriate touching and respecting other's bodies/personal space so, by the time kids are teenagers, they need to start practicing that. Or, pay the consequences. I've been out of the high school loop for a while now - are they doing a better job today of teaching to not be a bystander? when my daughter was in high school, not that long ago, there was really nothing said about it, about 6 years ago. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JM_ Posted July 20, 2022 Share Posted July 20, 2022 Just now, -DLC- said: Based on? What would excuse them in your view? just personal experience of growing up around some pretty dumb people when they were kids. I'm not trying to let anyone off the hook. I do think there can be mitigating circumstances with younger kids. I didn't realize it was 19 and 20 year old we were talking about here. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-DLC- Posted July 20, 2022 Author Share Posted July 20, 2022 1 minute ago, JM_ said: I've been out of the high school loop for a while now - are they doing a better job today of teaching to not be a bystander? when my daughter was in high school, not that long ago, there was really nothing said about it, about 6 years ago. I'm happy that the school I'm in definitely does. The BC Lions have a program that is available to schools as well. I guess, the point is, that children are taught about bullying and to stand by and watch it is supporting it (to some degree). Teenagers who are old enough to drive and do other "adult" things likely do know that it's not ok. The message is out there. Maybe it needs more work though. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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