Jonathan Lekkerimäki | RW

[Pure961089]

1 hour ago, HighOnHockey said:

 

I have no idea what connection you're making or what Ostlund has to do with anything I said. It's not "about" finding as many 20 year olds as you can, whatever that means, but it just happens that players with two further years of development at higher levels tend to be better players...

 

A line of Ohgren - Ostlun - Lekkerimaki would have chemistry sure, and they were dominant at the last U18 tournament, but it would not be a very strong line at this level. Perhaps you will recall the 2013 tournament when Canada brought 17 year olds Nathan MacKinnon and Jonathan Drouin and neither was overly effective. Or to take a more recent example, Holtz and Raymond in their 17 year old seasons, they were the 3rd line, playing 10-14 minutes a game, and they were clearly better player and prospects than any of this Djurgardens line.

 

Even just keep it simple and look at the top Swedish-born p/g forward in the Swedish junior league this past season, Ostlund ranked 13th (min 10 GP). https://www.eliteprospects.com/league/j20-nationell/stats/2021-2022?position=f&sort=ppg And that's excluding Ljungman, Torgersson, Niederbach and the handful of other players who played the majority of the season in other leagues. No matter which way you cut it, there was no place for Ostlund on this team this year. Hell of a prospect and I'm sure he'll be dominant at this tournament in future years, but it is and always has been a 19 year old's tournament (well, 20 year old's this year). Even a far more physically mature Liam Ohgren was a late addition only after Eklund dropped out.

 

I still have no idea why we're talking about this.

I’m just looking at Kemell, he’s in the same situation as Lekkerimaki and he’s getting a ton of icetime and’s frying.  I know he’s not more talented so I’m trying to figure out what ps going on.  My assumption was wrong but there has to be a reason.  Maybe it’s Lekkerimaki is a few months younger.  Maybe he’s too dependent on his U18 line mate’s.  I don’t know, I’m just guessing.

[Tre Mac]

I remember Lias Anderson got more minutes than Petey for reasons still unknown to this day so not too concerned with JL atm.

[Herberts Vasiljevs]

9 minutes ago, Tre Mac said:

I remember Lias Anderson got more minutes than Petey for reasons still unknown to this day so not too concerned with JL atm.

Nah, it's more fun to panic... I'll betcha Sekeras is going to publish an article titled "Did the Canucks make a mistake passing on Kemell?" just cuz. 

[HighOnHockey]

1 hour ago, Pure961089 said:

I’m just looking at Kemell, he’s in the same situation as Lekkerimaki and he’s getting a ton of icetime and’s frying.  I know he’s not more talented so I’m trying to figure out what ps going on.  My assumption was wrong but there has to be a reason.  Maybe it’s Lekkerimaki is a few months younger.  Maybe he’s too dependent on his U18 line mate’s.  I don’t know, I’m just guessing.

 

I think you're over-simplifying things a little. Kemell absolutely is more talented, and I say that as someone who has watched a good amount of both and had Lekkerimaki ranked 7th and Kemell 11th going into the draft. Sure, maybe Kemell will end up being a superstar in the NHL, but I would have been very nervous to be the team that drafts him. I said it all year, Kemell is among the 3 or 4 most purely skilled players in the draft (maybe 2nd only behind Savoie), but he's among the least NHL-translatable of the top tier players - creates too much of his offence off the rush or from the perimeter; too often doesn't use his teammates effectively; takes too many risks with the puck, tries to force offence and to do too much by himself. The thing that drove me the most crazy about him was how often he would take completely unnecessary risks - like he would dangle a guy one on one and it would look awesome, but then it wouldn't lead directly to a scoring chance or be clear at all what was the point of it; in some cases it even seemed like he would take himself further out of scoring positions with his dekes. Not to mention he's 5'9 and a half.

 

Lekkerimaki certainly isn't as purely skilled (still pretty damn skilled in his own right), but I had him ranked so high because he's on the complete opposite end of the spectrum. Highly NHL-translatable - creates much of his offence down low out of the corners and stepping in from the faceoff dots; uses his teammates extremely effectively, making a lot of short, quick passes, working give-and-goes; he does his best work offensively off the puck, supporting the puck carrier and finding soft spots to shoot from; doesn't take a lot of risks, plays a possession-first game and is so often able to find ways to create high-danger offence with minimal risk involved; only uses dekes when necessary and tends to keep his moves simple, but shows off lighting quick hands in tight spaces at times. And he's a little bit more of a realistic NHL size at 5'11 and a quarter; not a huge difference but it's there.

 

So yeah, no doubt Kemell is going to be the better player at the junior level, but as they continue to rise up in level of competition, things should balance themselves out.

Edited August 13, 2022 by HighOnHockey

[Locke Lamora]

10 hours ago, Tre Mac said:

I remember Lias Anderson got more minutes than Petey for reasons still unknown to this day so not too concerned with JL atm.

It would be nuts for anyone to be “concerned” about JL.

 

But I’d be lying if I didn’t prefer he popped a bit more than he has so far. 

[Pure961089]

11 hours ago, HighOnHockey said:

 

I think you're over-simplifying things a little. Kemell absolutely is more talented, and I say that as someone who has watched a good amount of both and had Lekkerimaki ranked 7th and Kemell 11th going into the draft. Sure, maybe Kemell will end up being a superstar in the NHL, but I would have been very nervous to be the team that drafts him. I said it all year, Kemell is among the 3 or 4 most purely skilled players in the draft (maybe 2nd only behind Savoie), but he's among the least NHL-translatable of the top tier players - creates too much of his offence off the rush or from the perimeter; too often doesn't use his teammates effectively; takes too many risks with the puck, tries to force offence and to do too much by himself. The thing that drove me the most crazy about him was how often he would take completely unnecessary risks - like he would dangle a guy one on one and it would look awesome, but then it wouldn't lead directly to a scoring chance or be clear at all what was the point of it; in some cases it even seemed like he would take himself further out of scoring positions with his dekes. Not to mention he's 5'9 and a half.

 

Lekkerimaki certainly isn't as purely skilled (still pretty damn skilled in his own right), but I had him ranked so high because he's on the complete opposite end of the spectrum. Highly NHL-translatable - creates much of his offence down low out of the corners and stepping in from the faceoff dots; uses his teammates extremely effectively, making a lot of short, quick passes, working give-and-goes; he does his best work offensively off the puck, supporting the puck carrier and finding soft spots to shoot from; doesn't take a lot of risks, plays a possession-first game and is so often able to find ways to create high-danger offence with minimal risk involved; only uses dekes when necessary and tends to keep his moves simple, but shows off lighting quick hands in tight spaces at times. And he's a little bit more of a realistic NHL size at 5'11 and a quarter; not a huge difference but it's there.

 

So yeah, no doubt Kemell is going to be the better player at the junior level, but as they continue to rise up in level of competition, things should balance themselves out.

I feel better now. Thanks for explaining 

[canucks fan 1981]

You guys got to relax about a few games at the world juniors. Remember how good mittelstadt looked versus Peterson? Mittelstadt was going to be amazing apparently. Quinn Hughes wasn't exactly lights out it the world juniors. But you know who was? Juolevi, the best d man in the world juniors in his draft year. Here is the deal about junior level, you can often do things that you can't do in the nhl. Hoglander looked so much better than Podkolzin, but you know who else looked even better than those two? A guy by the name of Samuel Fagemo, if you are going like who, that tells you how much we should read into their play at this level. Oh and btw, Colin White looked a hell lot better than Brock Boeser playing on same team. Let's not get into how much better Curtis Lazar looked compared to Bo Horvat. The only thing that matters are translatable skills. A lot of things that look great aren't translatable. Yet things like Boeser's release, Podkolzin's net drive and defensive awareness, or Peterson's intelligence, or Hughes' breakout ability are largely translatable. Whereas Mittelstadt can dance but most NHL dman will make you take a seat. 

[Herberts Vasiljevs]

12 minutes ago, canucks fan 1981 said:

You guys got to relax about a few games at the world juniors. Remember how good mittelstadt looked versus Peterson? Mittelstadt was going to be amazing apparently. Quinn Hughes wasn't exactly lights out it the world juniors. But you know who was? Juolevi, the best d man in the world juniors in his draft year. Here is the deal about junior level, you can often do things that you can't do in the nhl. Hoglander looked so much better than Podkolzin, but you know who else looked even better than those two? A guy by the name of Samuel Fagemo, if you are going like who, that tells you how much we should read into their play at this level. Oh and btw, Colin White looked a hell lot better than Brock Boeser playing on same team. Let's not get into how much better Curtis Lazar looked compared to Bo Horvat. The only thing that matters are translatable skills. A lot of things that look great aren't translatable. Yet things like Boeser's release, Podkolzin's net drive and defensive awareness, or Peterson's intelligence, or Hughes' breakout ability are largely translatable. Whereas Mittelstadt can dance but most NHL dman will make you take a seat. 

No. Sorry. Boring. BUST it is. Come on... say it with me! BUST. BUUUUUUUUUST!!!!

[JeremyCuddles]

I feel like we routinely overreact to WJC and stuff. Although I was one such feller at one point. But that had more to do with certain players usage rather than their play. We seen Canucks light it up and do nothing in their careers, and we seen Canucks look pedestrian or worse and become great. All that really matters is that they play and put in effort when they do see the ice. All about the reps.

[R3aL]

On 8/12/2022 at 3:21 PM, HighOnHockey said:

 

Other way around. Finland is far deeper at forward than Sweden is this tournament. 20 year olds Hirvonen, Simontaival, Jarventie, Raty. 19 year olds Koivunen, Lambert. Absolutely stacked forward group. Arguably the best in the tournament. Sweden lost their entire top line of Raymond-Eklund-Holtz, all wanting to focus on preparing for the NHL season, and leaving Sweden pretty thin up front.

 

That said, I prefer Lekkerimaki to Kemell by quite a bit. I don't think there is any denying Kemell is the better player right now, but Lekkerimaki is the much better NHL prospect in my opinion.

Felt like I read my own thoughts !

[R3aL]

On 8/12/2022 at 11:32 PM, HighOnHockey said:

 

I think you're over-simplifying things a little. Kemell absolutely is more talented, and I say that as someone who has watched a good amount of both and had Lekkerimaki ranked 7th and Kemell 11th going into the draft. Sure, maybe Kemell will end up being a superstar in the NHL, but I would have been very nervous to be the team that drafts him. I said it all year, Kemell is among the 3 or 4 most purely skilled players in the draft (maybe 2nd only behind Savoie), but he's among the least NHL-translatable of the top tier players - creates too much of his offence off the rush or from the perimeter; too often doesn't use his teammates effectively; takes too many risks with the puck, tries to force offence and to do too much by himself. The thing that drove me the most crazy about him was how often he would take completely unnecessary risks - like he would dangle a guy one on one and it would look awesome, but then it wouldn't lead directly to a scoring chance or be clear at all what was the point of it; in some cases it even seemed like he would take himself further out of scoring positions with his dekes. Not to mention he's 5'9 and a half.

 

Lekkerimaki certainly isn't as purely skilled (still pretty damn skilled in his own right), but I had him ranked so high because he's on the complete opposite end of the spectrum. Highly NHL-translatable - creates much of his offence down low out of the corners and stepping in from the faceoff dots; uses his teammates extremely effectively, making a lot of short, quick passes, working give-and-goes; he does his best work offensively off the puck, supporting the puck carrier and finding soft spots to shoot from; doesn't take a lot of risks, plays a possession-first game and is so often able to find ways to create high-danger offence with minimal risk involved; only uses dekes when necessary and tends to keep his moves simple, but shows off lighting quick hands in tight spaces at times. And he's a little bit more of a realistic NHL size at 5'11 and a quarter; not a huge difference but it's there.

 

So yeah, no doubt Kemell is going to be the better player at the junior level, but as they continue to rise up in level of competition, things should balance themselves out.

This Should get posted or stickied for people to see somehow for future reference 

[Devron]

13 minutes ago, N7Nucks said:

I feel like we routinely overreact to WJC and stuff. Although I was one such feller at one point. But that had more to do with certain players usage rather than their play. We seen Canucks light it up and do nothing in their careers, and we seen Canucks look pedestrian or worse and become great. All that really matters is that they play and put in effort when they do see the ice. All about the reps.

Hodgson. Schroeder. 
 

Then Podkolzin was a supposedly a bust last WJC. Now In the NHL and probably gonna be a damn good player for years to come. 
 

World Juniors is a very exciting tournament but it means very little in terms of a players potential. Look at a guy like Sam Steel. The guy is probably gonna be a PTO player this preseason.

[Captain Canuck #12]

On 8/12/2022 at 11:04 PM, Herberts Vasiljevs said:

Nah, it's more fun to panic... I'll betcha Sekeras is going to publish an article titled "Did the Canucks make a mistake passing on Kemell?" just cuz. 

I don't think anyone is panicking.  But I can't recall seeing any draft rankings where Lekkerimaki was rated higher than Kemmell, so when the Canucks chose him over Kemmell, I couldn't help wondering if a Swedish bias influenced their decision.  Hope my hunch is wrong, but this will be an interesting one to watch over time.

[flat land fish]

I guess your trying to project who is the better player 5 years from now.  Lekkerimaki needs to get bigger and stronger.  Against the US looked like he struggled in board battles and needed about another half gear to gain separation speed with the puck on his stick.  Hopefully playing against peers in this environment motivates the player on areas needing improvement.

[Smashian Kassian]

I saw a little bit of the US game. A couple of plays stood out both on the PP.

 

The puck came up the boards to him at the point, he didn't retrieve it smoothly, took a second, then he was checked & the US went back the other way on a rush. The bobble happens but not a great show of strength (to be expected tho).

 

On the other hand Sweden was struggling to gain the zone, and on one play he went back for it behind the net & rushed up the ice by himself. Walking around the US guys & almost getting to the net before the last D reached in & poked it away. It was a good show of speed for a guy who has that knock. Then he was able to get the puck out of the corner & Sweden finally set up in zone.

 

There was also another play where the puck came to him at the point (5 on 5), he was under pressure but used body position to hold off a check, & then with minimal time+space got it down to a teammate behind the net. So not all bad on that front.

 

 

Edited August 15, 2022 by Smashian Kassian

[HighOnHockey]

10 hours ago, R3aL said:

This Should get posted or stickied for people to see somehow for future reference 

Lol appreciate that. I mean in a sense it is just my opinion, but it will be pretty clear to anyone to has watched the players substantially. Don't need to go too far back and talk about Ho-Sang, Milano, etc., but just in the past couple drafts I said exactly the same sorts of things about Cole Perfetti and Fabian Lysell that I said about Kemell this year, and I correctly predicted all three getting drafted later than the consensus expected. NHL GMs just do not like taking a lot of risk with high draft picks. How they turn out long-term is still to be determined, and surely some of them will turn out to be superstars. I don't have anything against any of them per se, but I couldn't believe so many people were talking about Kemell as a potential top 3 pick at times throughout the season. But it will be interesting to watch when one of them hits big, fans will flock to say "I told you so" and "how did this player ever fall as far as they did?" and "it should have always been obvious to everyone how skilled he was and that he would be a star in the NHL."

[Sp3nny]

2 hours ago, Smashian Kassian said:

I saw a little bit of the US game. A couple of plays stood out both on the PP.

 

The puck came up the boards to him at the point, he didn't retrieve it smoothly, took a second, then he was checked & the US went back the other way on a rush. The bobble happens but not a great show of strength (to be expected tho).

 

On the other hand Sweden was struggling to gain the zone, and on one play he went back for it behind the net & rushed up the ice by himself. Walking around the US guys & almost getting to the net before the last D reached in & poked it away. It was a good show of speed for a guy who has that knock. Then he was able to get the puck out of the corner & Sweden finally set up in zone.

 

There was also another play where the puck came to him at the point (5 on 5), he was under pressure but used body position to hold off a check, & then with minimal time+space got it down to a teammate behind the net. So not all bad on that front.

 

 

I noticed much of the same. It's easy to notice he is a bit ineffective on this stage, but have to remember he just turned 18 and much of the competition is 19 or 20 this time around.

 

What I found somewhat concerning, and I think this ties in with people questioning his skating, is he seems to coast a fair bit. When he is actually skating, he can generate good speed like he did on the rush through the neutral zone and beat the defender wide (great play by the US defender to knock the puck off his stick btw). The separation speed is there, but he seems to be playing a bit tentatively. Now is that because he is a young guy in the tournament? Definitely plausible. But I have noticed this before, which could be a bit of a lack of effort or pace thats the issue. I don't know the TOI figures, but I'd imagine Ohgren and Lekkerimaki had similar totals, but I know Ohgren was hustling to forecheck the US defenders. He has more of the frame to do it, but he also seemed much more willing, which is something I always liked with Ohgren's game.

 

Definitely not writing him off by any means, just my main takeaway from yesterday's showing.

[Alflives]

Hey!  Let’s do a Benning and base our evaluation of a prospect on a couple games at the WJC?  

[Comeback_Kings]

Lekkerimaki created the best scoring opportunity for Sweden in the first period last night.  His line-mate takes a penalty and then he doesn't get any icetime for the rest of the period.  The Swedish team is not well coached, they needed goals and should have played our kid a lot more.  

 

 

[Comeback_Kings]

Also thought Edvinsson had a very poor game last night, big kid, but no big deal.