[Discussion] Do You Have the Stomach For a Rebuild?

[Smashian Kassian]

18 minutes ago, 24K PureCool said:

Those are the problem though. They are the anchors that will foil any ambition this team will have with this core. The other contract you mentioned ain't too much if an issue as it is short term anyways. 

 

Also if anyone of the top three we are going to have issue with, it is Petterson as the other two are signed to long term contracts that we can force to go through a rebuild if need be. Pety can literally take his qualifying offer and be off the team in two more season. 

 

I disagree. If the cap is at 100 million they are what 15% of the cap? You still have 85 Million to play with. And those 2 will still be top 2 line contributors anyways, if your getting 30g/70 pts from Miller & 20+ mins from OEL your fine.

 

Colorado just won the cup with 6M on the third pair (Erik Johnson) & 3.5M at 3C (Compher), we made it to Game 7 with 4.2M sitting in the press box (and the cap was only 59M then). Not every inefficient dollar is the end of the dream.

 

Hughes has 4 years after this, Demko has 3 after this. If your going into a rebuild those assets won't be on your team at the end of it, so might aswell move them before they die on the vine.

 

Petey still has the possibility of signing an 8 yr deal & if that isn't going to happen you can trade him when the time comes. 

 

[ronthecivil]

Oh the team! Yes, blow it up!

 

What I can't stomach is over payed floaters.

 

What I can stomach is hope! Hope for a future! Hope for future glory!

 

Right now there is no hope at all. There's the opposite. The likely future of more misery. That is way more disheartening than a rebuild.

[ronthecivil]

For veteran leadership sign some goons.

 

Need someone to stick up for our hope, should they be bold enough to get it.

[kloubek]

I'm going to stick with this team no matter what. However, I have no interest in a rebuild.

 

Look at our team on paper alone. We have the best scoring forward depth possibly ever, or at least since the 2011 team. We have a vezina-quality goalie - even if he hasn't been playing like it lately. Yes, the defense needs some retooling, but that's about it.

 

On PAPER, this is a team worthy of the playoffs. But in practice, not so much so far. Yet, does that mean it is a good idea to blow it all up and start over? I don't think so.

 

Whatever is ailing the team needs to be fixed. It was an issue during Green's tenure, and it is an issue so far this season as well. It isn't normal for a team with this much talent to lose 7 games in a row. Sure, we could blow it all up and start fresh, but who's to say that we will be any better off? However, if we stick with it, this team MAY turn the corner and start performing up to par. And if not, well, we can always do a fire sale midway through instead of now. It isn't like we are racking up the points, so if the idea is to tank, that's still entirely possible....

[MaxVerstappen33]

It is ownership that has rejected a rebuild. They personally can't stomach it. It's not about the fans. Ownership uses the fans as an excuse. The most troubling thing about it is Rutherford is a retool GM. Not someone you hire for a rebuild. Benning would have been a good rebuild GM.

 

The same thing happens in Formula 1. Big spenders like Lance Stroll or Toyota come in and throw big bucks around and think they can win in 2-5 years. It doesn't work like that. 

[spook007]

21 hours ago, Warhippy said:

Ok, let's dissect this "rebuild takes to long" comment.  We heard this fan base doesn't have the stomach for a rebuild, yet we've been retooling since 2013.

 

That's a decade of retooling.  With no developed players to speak of.  No added picks.  No traded assets.

 

Here's some teams that have rebuilt over a decade.  A decade of suck; while not all sucked for a full decade, and while not all have in fact won cups.  They are considered threats

 

Buffalo drafted 8th, 2nd, 2nd, 8th, 8th, 1st, 7th, 8th, 1st and 9th and add 4 additional 1st round picks and 6 additional 2nd and a few additional 3rd round picks in 9 years or less.  

 

Toronto drafted 5, 7, 5, 8, 4, 1.

 

Edmonton drafted 6, 10, 1, 1, 1, 7 3, 1, 4, 10, 8

 

Colorado drafted  3, 2, 1, 10, 10, 4, 4, 

 

Pens drafted 5, 1, 2, 1, 2 

 

Rangers drafted 7, 9, 2, 1 (yet manage to trade all our stars for supplementary picks and players and have a Norris player refuse to sign anywhere but here)

 

Panthers drafted 4, 3, 7, 10, 10, 4, 3, 3, 2, 1, 10

 

In the decade ish or so that these teams sucked.  Rangers not withstanding because they literally had Panarin and Fox fall in their laps, Kreider; and traded most of their essential assets for quality returns that hit hit and kept on hitting.  The Pens managed 4 HOF players in a row for their core.  The Oilers sucked their way in to slightly above mediocrity.  The Leafs sucked their way in to it and endlessly traded players on 1 year terms for extra picks.  The sabres and Panthers managed to suck their way in to youth and cores we only dream of.  The Avs fell in to O'reilly and Duchene returns that set that team up and Makar fell in their laps.

 

What I am saying, again is that we've been at this since 2012/2013 and this "retooling" BS is endless.  These teams SUCKED. They are/were the epitome of SUCKED and it was for them about a decade or less of SUCK.  Yet we, have managed to spend to the cap.  We've managed to trade nobody.  We've acquired few extra picks and those few high ones we've garnered, Pettersson and Hughes are our home runs.  Imagine if in 2013 we decided to suck and by comparison we were drafting consistently well with two or three top 3 picks to supplement Hughes and Pettersson. 

 

Say...having any two or three of Matthews, Reinhardt, Ekbblad, McDavid, Draisatl, Powers, Dahlin since 2013 in addition to what we do have.  Having cap space and extra picks in our stable with quality development.  Where would we be now?

 

I know there's zero guarantees in the draft.  I know the lottery never favoured us.  I get it.  I know.  But; with zero cap space for a decade.  With no real supplementary picks.  Watching assets walk and committing to the same insanity as we did the year before, they year before that and the year before that pretending something's changed.  What have we accomplished since our 2012 President's trophy?  

 

I find it highly insulting that we are told that we don't have the stomach for a rebuild because it takes too long.  Just look at the drafts from 2013 through 2021 and think of what might have been had this team the stomach to have simply done what needed to be done.

Well if a few top College players decides they only wanna play for Canucks, Bedard says he'll only play for Canucks and Buttman lets us draft 1 or 2 over the next 3-4 years, sign me up as well....

 

Unfortunately every time we looked like in a good position draft wise, we've dropped a few spots...  Makes a hell of a difference, when you get to get picks in the top 2 a couple of times, instead of 5t, 6th, 7th and above...

 

This has been argued about every since Sedins were retiring. 

 

Yeah sign me up if this is guaranteed to make us a power house or cup winner in the next 10 years... 

But so far Oilers haven't won a cup despite drafting high for 11 years, Panthers haven't won a cup after 11 years

Toronto haven't even gone past 1 rd during playoffs

 

And Rangers... yes if Buttman lets us draft 1st and 2nd, Bedard refuses to sign for anyone but us and a top FA decides to only play for the Canucks, yeah then sign me up as well.

Or Pens 5th, 1st, 2nd, 1st, 2nd and let there be a Generational talent in there.

 

Well I would sign up to that, but if we are going to be Arizona... hmm......

 

Islanders draft from 2008:  9, 1, 12, 

 

 

[J-Dizzle]

19 hours ago, Provost said:

Neutral value at best as a whole.

I disagree. 

[NewbieCanuckFan]

34 minutes ago, kloubek said:

I'm going to stick with this team no matter what. However, I have no interest in a rebuild.

 

Look at our team on paper alone. We have the best scoring forward depth possibly ever, or at least since the 2011 team. We have a vezina-quality goalie - even if he hasn't been playing like it lately. Yes, the defense needs some retooling, but that's about it.

 

On PAPER, this is a team worthy of the playoffs. But in practice, not so much so far. Yet, does that mean it is a good idea to blow it all up and start over? I don't think so.

 

Whatever is ailing the team needs to be fixed. It was an issue during Green's tenure, and it is an issue so far this season as well. It isn't normal for a team with this much talent to lose 7 games in a row. Sure, we could blow it all up and start fresh, but who's to say that we will be any better off? However, if we stick with it, this team MAY turn the corner and start performing up to par. And if not, well, we can always do a fire sale midway through instead of now. It isn't like we are racking up the points, so if the idea is to tank, that's still entirely possible....

Retooling?  It needs a massive overhaul.  Two of the three only top 4 D on this roster we have are already older than Hamhuis when Jim Benning was hired as GM.  (That's how old they are now as Edler was SEVERAL years younger then as OEL or Myers).

Edited October 25, 2022 by NewbieCanuckFan

[JM_]

@J.I.A.H.N

 

What about Bo 50% retained for Wahlstrom and a big defence prospect like Bolduc? 

 

Lou Lam is watching his team go down early and he needs something to stabilize that F group. 

[we win the cup in 2025]

 no complete rebuild or retool neccessary. The fans say they want a rebuid but a rebuild can take 5-7 years.  The fastest fix is a one year rebuild, ie tank this year as there are three top players who will be team changers, bedard, fantilli, carlsson. players like bedard and fantilli who is considered an auston matthews clone and is tearing up the ncaa are awesome players. these players come along once in every five or ten years in the draft so take advantage of it.

 

trade myers with some salary retention or buy him out. use the cap space to get one good defenseman. we may have to give up a draft pick. ari wants two pieces for chychrun. it could be horvat and our 2024 first.

 

over the next two years rearchitect the forward core. add size and grit we have too many soft small players. and yes we have too many swedes ( yup i said it).

 

then get a younger defensive structure oriented coach who can teach young guys and demands strong defensive play. ideally a guy who has won a cup and can motivate just by his achievements.

 

[Pears]

13 minutes ago, JM_ said:

@J.I.A.H.N

 

What about Bo 50% retained for Wahlstrom and a big defence prospect like Bolduc? 

 

Lou Lam is watching his team go down early and he needs something to stabilize that F group. 

I’d see if straight across for Pulock could fly. 

[spook007]

22 hours ago, Warhippy said:

Ok, let's dissect this "rebuild takes to long" comment.  We heard this fan base doesn't have the stomach for a rebuild, yet we've been retooling since 2013.

 

That's a decade of retooling.  With no developed players to speak of.  No added picks.  No traded assets.

 

Here's some teams that have rebuilt over a decade.  A decade of suck; while not all sucked for a full decade, and while not all have in fact won cups.  They are considered threats

 

Buffalo drafted 8th, 2nd, 2nd, 8th, 8th, 1st, 7th, 8th, 1st and 9th and add 4 additional 1st round picks and 6 additional 2nd and a few additional 3rd round picks in 9 years or less.  

 

Toronto drafted 5, 7, 5, 8, 4, 1.

 

Edmonton drafted 6, 10, 1, 1, 1, 7 3, 1, 4, 10, 8

 

Colorado drafted  3, 2, 1, 10, 10, 4, 4, 

 

Pens drafted 5, 1, 2, 1, 2 

 

Rangers drafted 7, 9, 2, 1 (yet manage to trade all our stars for supplementary picks and players and have a Norris player refuse to sign anywhere but here)

 

Panthers drafted 4, 3, 7, 10, 10, 4, 3, 3, 2, 1, 10

 

In the decade ish or so that these teams sucked.  Rangers not withstanding because they literally had Panarin and Fox fall in their laps, Kreider; and traded most of their essential assets for quality returns that hit hit and kept on hitting.  The Pens managed 4 HOF players in a row for their core.  The Oilers sucked their way in to slightly above mediocrity.  The Leafs sucked their way in to it and endlessly traded players on 1 year terms for extra picks.  The sabres and Panthers managed to suck their way in to youth and cores we only dream of.  The Avs fell in to O'reilly and Duchene returns that set that team up and Makar fell in their laps.

 

What I am saying, again is that we've been at this since 2012/2013 and this "retooling" BS is endless.  These teams SUCKED. They are/were the epitome of SUCKED and it was for them about a decade or less of SUCK.  Yet we, have managed to spend to the cap.  We've managed to trade nobody.  We've acquired few extra picks and those few high ones we've garnered, Pettersson and Hughes are our home runs.  Imagine if in 2013 we decided to suck and by comparison we were drafting consistently well with two or three top 3 picks to supplement Hughes and Pettersson. 

 

Say...having any two or three of Matthews, Reinhardt, Ekbblad, McDavid, Draisatl, Powers, Dahlin since 2013 in addition to what we do have.  Having cap space and extra picks in our stable with quality development.  Where would we be now?

 

I know there's zero guarantees in the draft.  I know the lottery never favoured us.  I get it.  I know.  But; with zero cap space for a decade.  With no real supplementary picks.  Watching assets walk and committing to the same insanity as we did the year before, they year before that and the year before that pretending something's changed.  What have we accomplished since our 2012 President's trophy?  

 

I find it highly insulting that we are told that we don't have the stomach for a rebuild because it takes too long.  Just look at the drafts from 2013 through 2021 and think of what might have been had this team the stomach to have simply done what needed to be done.

If Buttman will give us a couple of 1OA or 2nd OA picks and Bedard and the likes state they'll only sign for Canucks, by all means sign me up as well, but....

So far Toronto hasn't made it past 1st round yet, Oilers has taken 11 years including a generational talent and still no final, Pens had 2x1OA (incl a generational talent) and 2X2nd OA 

Panthers has taken 11 years... 

 

We are NOT going to get to draft 1OA... we always get bumped further down the line...every single draft... It's a pipe dream to think this will work for us.

 

We've sucked since 2012 ie 10 years, and is hard, but if anyone think they'll be hanging around enjoying a stealth tank just look at the shirts being thrown onto the ice at the home opener... 

 

Imagine looking forward to 10 years of Oilers or Panthers hockey? or being optimistic say 7-8years of it or Arizona hockey?

 

And who is going to pay for this? Empty rink and severely reduced sales of merchandises... 

 

Devils have had 2 x 1OA, 4th OA, 2nd OA, 6th OA, 7th OA + 4 more 1st rd picks since 2015... That's 7 years including good draft luck, and I'm not seeing them being seen as favourites. At least not yet...

 

It's all very well to say Montreal accept it, but they were in the finals 2 years ago.... makes a huge difference.

 

I just feel saying, we can tank is great and on paper it looks smart, but 10 years 3650days to be constantly in playoffs is a long time.

Boston hasn't had to do so, Calgary neither? They are both pretty good teams (unfortunately)...

 

Best thing that could happen was an injury to Petey, Hughes or Demko, so we can continue to suck to the end of this season and get a top 4 pick (hopefully even better) and then get the defence sorted over the next 2 years, until that top pick can participate.

 

Maybe let go of one or two of Brock, Horvat and Miller (although doubt anyone takes on that contract now. Maybe even let go of Myers, just to ensure we really tank this year.

 

Only my 5 cents, and I'm probably alone, but I doubt many of the folks here will hang around if we suck badly for another 10 years.

 

 

21 hours ago, Provost said:

I don’t know if I will keep following that much if they DON’T rebuild.  I already have started PVRing games and fast forwarding through parts.

 

The big picture is bleak… as it was two years ago.  All of our efficient contracts were up for extension meaning all the money coming off the books was already eaten up by raised we would owe.  That is the same for the next few years, there is no big help coming in free agency and no high end prospects coming In the pipeline.  Due to cap and contracts signed…this is the roster we will have for the next 3-4 years give or take a couple players.  If it isn’t a winner, then why keep trotting it out.

 

To me the rebuild includes Petterson, Hughes, and Demko as they are what gives you the return you need to kickstart it.  They are also not going to be under club control indefinitely.

 

If we had have made moves last trade deadline we could have been looking at 2 years to being competitive with a few extra high end prospects in the system to sustain a window with a steady stream of ELCs.  Now we are looking at 4 years I think.  A couple years of tearing down and a couple years of building up.

 

There are a lot of decent veterans looking for work nowadays that we can keep finding cheap one year UFAs that we can flip for more picks each deadline so that the prospects don’t have to be thrown to the wolves.  Build a champion Abbotsford team of guys that learn to win together… then they graduate as a group over 2-3 years.  A lot of the team building for our last good core came from the Moose.

 

Look at Montreal, they aren’t going to be winning a Cup this year but the fans are falling in love with the players as they see it as being on the way up.

This is the part most people don't like... We are not going to get 3-4 firsts for players like Myers, Miller, Mikhayev, Pearson etc etc.... 

Bo may give a nice return, but the rest not so much.

[rekker]

2 hours ago, Provost said:

This is exactly it.  We are capped out with lots of contracts on the books that make players have negative value.

 

How do you get from point A to point B… people are just ignoring that.

 

If this roster doesn’t magically turn into a contending team in the next month, there isn’t any cavalry coming to fix it.

 

It is a 2-4 year process of tearing the roster down by trading valuable assets (we have precious few of those) and letting expensive inefficient contracts expire (without replacing them with more expensive contracts.. at least. One with term attached.

 

By that time you are looking at losing Petterson, Demko, and Hughes to free agency.

I couldn't agree with this post more. I will add to it. No way in hell this turns into a contending team as is. There are no two or three moves available to equal a cavalry. We are horribly built, have a pathetic prospect group, have many contracts with little to negative value. This is the biggest mess of a Canucks team I've ever witnessed. We are CAPPED out. Unbelievable! The only player worth keeping for the length of a rebuild is Pods, because of his age. Patiently sell off and for goodness sake, for once in franchise history, hire some scouts that can identity some Dmen. 

[rekker]

13 minutes ago, spook007 said:

This is the part most people don't like... We are not going to get 3-4 firsts for players like Myers, Miller, Mikhayev, Pearson etc etc.... 

Bo may give a nice return, but the rest not so much

I'm fine with seconds and thirds and the cap space. Use the cap space to aquire more picks. Like how we were desperate and dumb enough to toss in a second to get rid of Dickenson. For way too long we have had too few lottery tickets. Robertson, Fox etc all are later picks and you need as many darts as possible to hit on one. I just don't see any fixing this mess other than a tear down.

[spook007]

20 hours ago, Elias Pettersson said:

We are in a very similar situation that Colorado was in during the 2016-2017 season.  They had their #1 centre in MacKinnon, had a #2 centre in Duchene, had some good wingers in Landeskog and Rantanen, had a couple guys on defence in Johnson and a PMD in Barrie, and had some good young players in Jost, Zadorov and Compher.  

 

They finished last that year and even though they lost the lottery they were still able to draft the best player in the 2017 draft, a franchise defenceman in Makar.  They also traded their #2 centre Duchene and obtained Girard and a 2019 #1 round pick which turned out to be Byram.  So that trade plus the tanking in 2016-2017 allowed them to completely rebuild their defence.

 

With Vancouver today, we have Petey, Hughes, Demko, Podkolzin, Hoglander, Rathbone, Kuzmenko and a bunch of young prospects that we were able to obtain over the last 2 years.  What we need to do is get our "Makar" type player as well as trade some veterans for youth.  If we can tank just this one year, then we will be able to get a similar player to Makar in Bedard.  And if we can trade our #2 centre, Horvat, for youth, then we will be well on our way to having a team similar to Colorado.

 

We can also look at trading guy like Myers, Pearson, Garland and Boeser.  Miller and OEL would be difficult to move so they most likely stay and become the veterans of the team once the rebuild is complete.

 

So in essence this wouldn't be a hard rebuild as we already have some core pieces in place, but more of a soft rebuild.  Of course, just like Colorado, we would need to get lucky and get Bedard just like they got Makar.  So our soft rebuild really hinges on getting that #1 overall pick in 2023.

Like this, but....

the fact the got 4th OA in the trade was extremely lucky, as nobody expected Ottawa to be so bad.

 

As for Bedard, I don't believe, they'll let us draft him, but Michkov would also be great. Evan Calsson or Fantilli  could be great starting points.

But Bedard would really be a game breaker...

[the_impersonator13]

Always remember, a full rebuild will never happen as long as the Aqualini's own the team. They'd rather get 2 home playoff dates for revenue than tear it down and do what's necessary for a full rebuild. It's why we've been spinning in mediocrity since the last cup run and why Linden parted ways with the team. It's why the Seahawks were (at least as it now appears) correct in trading Wilson for a franchise changing draft class. Those are moves that teams with the correct ownership make for the long term success of the franchise / product rather than short term revenue. 

[rekker]

This team, as constructed, is like a stained sweater. They have been adding and adding more stains to make the sweater look like a spotted sweater, to camouflage the original stain. Now it's just plain ugly, stretched, and doesn't fit. Time to toss this sweater, and aquire the wool to start knitting a new one. 

[spook007]

1 minute ago, rekker said:

I'm fine with seconds and thirds and the cap space. Use the cap space to aquire more picks. Like how we were desperate and dumb enough to toss in a second to get rid of Dickenson. For way too long we have had too few lottery tickets. Robertson, Fox etc all are later picks and you need as many darts as possible to hit on one. I just don't see any fixing this mess other than a tear down.

That's fair enough and I agree somewhat. We need as many 1sts as possible, if we go down that route, but if 1sts not achievable then 2nds, 3rds or similar...

 

[rekker]

2 minutes ago, the_impersonator13 said:

Always remember, a full rebuild will never happen as long as the Aqualini's own the team. They'd rather get 2 home playoff dates for revenue than tear it down and do what's necessary for a full rebuild. It's why we've been spinning in mediocrity since the last cup run and why Linden parted ways with the team. It's why the Seahawks were (at least as it now appears) correct in trading Wilson for a franchise changing draft class. Those are moves that teams with the correct ownership make for the long term success of the franchise / product rather than short term revenue. 

I'm not convinced of that. I think Aqua, the fan he is, may just realize the Frankenstein of a team he has. A rebuild, if committed to, can be embraced by the fan base. Especially with the farm team so close and prospects can be watched in person. 

[JM_]

40 minutes ago, Pears said:

I’d see if straight across for Pulock could fly. 

I was thinking that as well, but with his NMC and it hurting the ISL right side didn't think it would fly.

 

We get a young RHC and big LHD prospect, which solves a couple of issues.