[PGT] New Jersey Devils at Vancouver Canucks | Nov. 01, 2022

[chon derry]

7 minutes ago, stawns said:

I was never too worried about the contracts JB handed out because they were all going to expire within a year or two of each other and they still had to ice a team while the newly drafted guys developed.  Really, he pretty much nailed the timeline dead on as Petey and the young guys are ready to take over and most of his big contracts were set to expire in the next year or two.  He clearly saw where the dominant core was going to come from on this roster.

Benning time and time again kept saying he was going to rebuild from the D out  but short of Hughes. Never happened in fact the reverse happened 

[Smashian Kassian]

1 minute ago, stawns said:

the current mix of players isn't good and there's no cohesion or chemistry with this roster.  They need some significant changes

 

Meh, there's some. Miller & Pettersson have shown chemistry, exc. The bigger issue is they cant kill a penalty to save their life 2 straight years, the D is lacking ability & they don't have an identity or long term coach.

 

This is what I see as unlikely/unwilling to move;

 

Miller - Pettersson - Podkolzin

???? - ???? - Mikheyev

???? - ???? - ????

???? - Lazar - ????

 

Hughes - ????

OEL - ???

 

Everything else should be fluid.

 

[MaxVerstappen33]

2 minutes ago, Fanuck said:

Don't you think that if JR is the 'hall of fame' GM that people believe he is, he would've recognized this thing is 'unfixable' before signing Miller to a long-term deal, and instead of taking on that financial commitment he would've said as much to ownership?   I mean, really NOTHING meaningful with this roster has changed since last year when we weren't good enough - why would JR believe this year would've been different?  

 

JR is getting paid to gamble with someone else's money. He doesn't care. He has zero sentimental connections to this city or team. 

We've never had a GM less connected to this team. 

[NewbieCanuckFan]

3 minutes ago, chon derry said:

Benning time and time again kept saying he was going to rebuild from the D out  but short of Hughes. Never happened in fact the reverse happened 

Well he tried (and failed) in trading for defensemen who were barely better than a 30+ year old Jason Garrison with a bad groin.  For all his skills in amateur scouting, professsional scouting was often a hit or miss affair.

[stawns]

7 minutes ago, MaxVerstappen33 said:

The rebuild was going to sprout from finishing dead last for a season or 2. Take on garbage contracts from contenders for picks. Use cap space to sign reclaimation players to trade at deadlines. 

Petey was #5, OJ was #5 (injuries derailed that one), Hughes was #7, Podz #10........not like they were picking #27 every year and aside from OJ, they've done well with their high picks.  Again, I think JB was looking at 2 years from now as the timeline for the young guys to emerge as "the" core and he was pretty spot on, imo.  In the meantime, they have to try and field a team and I find it hard to condone intentionally being sh!tty for a long period of time based on a lottery ticket or two.  

 

Now, it's pretty clear what path they need to follow and had PA and JR recognized that earlier, they would have gotten the pieces back they need to really support that young core.  But they didn't and here we are 10 games into a season quickly fading to black.

[Goal:thecup]

3 hours ago, Petey_BOI said:

you mean the best he has ever played is not great?

 

this take is sus.

sus :

 

Pig

Animal

 

Description

Sus is the genus of wild and domestic pigs, within the even-toed ungulate family Suidae. Sus include domestic pigs and their ancestor, the common Eurasian wild boar, along with other species. Sus species, like all suids, are native to the Eurasian and African continents, ranging from Europe to the Pacific islands. Wikipedia

[DIBdaQUIB]

Bad start to the season but i'm reassured about management after they announced the major deal with Rogers.  Comforting to know they are on top of things.

[Fanuck]

1 minute ago, MaxVerstappen33 said:

JR is getting paid to gamble with someone else's money. He doesn't care. He has zero sentimental connections to this city or team. 

We've never had a GM less connected to this team. 

If true, which I don't actually believe, then I put that somewhat on Francisco for hiring a guy and not doing his due dilligence to see if he'd be the type of person who'd treat his billion-dollar asset like his own 'free monopoly' money just to eff around with. 

 

Like I said, I don't actually believe JR doesn't care - he spent a lifetime building a reputation in this industry, he's never been accused of not being a professional before or not giving a full commitment to his previous organizations.  Why would he all of a sudden turn into some kind of 'quiet quitter'?   

[eeeeergh]

13 minutes ago, stawns said:

they need to make several very significant changes with this roster, thsat' for sure.  But isn't that a re-tool, not a rebuild?  To me, what they need is a transition to a new pahses focused on the young players

I think the biggest thing is we need a new wave of drafted homegrown talent, so I'd refer to it as a rebuild. 

 

Assuming we sell off 27 to 30+ year old vets for picks, we would have the 2023 and 2024 drafts to re-build the prospect pool. I think its reasonable to say that we'll get those players on ELCs in 2026-2027. That should coincide with Petey, Hughes, Podkolzin, Rathbone, Demko entering their best years (might be a bit late for demko though honestly, hard to say). 

 

I don't see another way to actually get this team competitive unless PA and JR unlock some truly god tier hockey trades and get monumentally lopsided returns. Otherwise, from a cap and asset perspective, acquiring what we need to be a contender just isn't going to be possible. It's got to come through the draft. 

 

If the 2023 draft is as stacked as they say, I honestly think it'd be possible for us to be competitive by 2026-2027. Imagine having 3-4 guys on ELCs that are playing like 3-5 million dollar players. That would give us the cap space to go out and get actual good vets in UFA (like NJ was able to do with Dougie Hamilton) instead of having to haggle over 400k of retained salary in order to make a deal work within our cap. 

[BPA]

Retool rebuild whatever.

 

This team needs to trade forwards for some better quality D.  It’s been the Achilles heel of the Canucks for a few years now.

 

[AV.]

25 minutes ago, Smashian Kassian said:

 

2. No one ever realistically thought Dickinson could be moved without attaching an asset. Cap is going up, we'll see. 

 

3. In 08-09 they made the playoffs with a bunch of younger guys, they proceeded to miss 2 years straight after instead of take an expected jump, they didn't blow it all up & tank. Even for years after that they were a middling team usually out in round 1, never decided to bottom out & go for a franchise player in the draft.

 

To bring it back to the Canucks; the new regime just took over & they have one of the youngest teams in the league, with good but underachieving pieces. The flat cap & with previous deals made things hard last summer, but I'm expecting them to change parts, rework the team, and build it up over the coming years. And that's what they've said. 

 

They'll have 20-40 million over the next few years & opportunity to make changes.

 

Differences in approach. 

Blues knew their appearance was a surprising one and didn't take it as a benchmark to accelerate the plan.  They continued to stay the course, continued drafting, and waited until the team itself proved it was an actual contender before engaging in rentals and adds (but they did make a pretty monumental trade by moving Erik Johnson to COL during the 2011 season).  It's worth mentioning that Doug Armstrong went to that team around that time and replaced Larry Pleau, so a different voice in the front-office may influenced their plan a bit differently than what it was previously.

Compare to the Canucks (after drafting Pettersson and Hughes)
- Signed Roussel and Beagle to insane contracts
- Traded a 1st and 3rd for Miller (coming off a year they finished outside of the playoffs)
- Signed Myers and Ferland to a huge money deals
- Traded a 2nd and Madden for a rental in Toffoli (hadn't yet made playoffs and weren't a sure-bet to qualify that season)
- Did not manage any of their UFA assets well
- Moved a 1st, 2nd (and yes, bad contracts) to acquire Ekman-Larsson, Garland

Not exactly a series of moves a team should have been doing to build for the future, regardless of how things had worked out on both sides.

[stawns]

17 minutes ago, Smashian Kassian said:

 

Meh, there's some. Miller & Pettersson have shown chemistry, exc. The bigger issue is they cant kill a penalty to save their life 2 straight years, the D is lacking ability & they don't have an identity or long term coach.

 

This is what I see as unlikely/unwilling to move;

 

Miller - Pettersson - Podkolzin

???? - ???? - Mikheyev

???? - ???? - ????

???? - Lazar - ????

 

Hughes - ????

OEL - ???

 

Everything else should be fluid.

 

haha, that's never going to happen and if you keep Miller and move Bo, this team is going nowhere fast.  There's a good group there, imo

 

Bo

Petey

Garland

Podz

Hogz

Demko

OEL

Bear

Stillman

Rathbone

Martin

Kuz

Mik

 

Get what you can for the rest in the best hockey trade you can make.  They need players coming back, not picks.

 

 

Edited November 2, 2022 by stawns

[eeeeergh]

3 minutes ago, AV. said:

Differences in approach. 

Blues knew their appearance was a surprising one and didn't take it as a benchmark to accelerate the plan.  They continued to stay the course, continued drafting, and waited until the team itself proved it was an actual contender before engaging in rentals and adds (but they did make a pretty monumental trade by moving Erik Johnson to COL during the 2011 season).  It's worth mentioning that Doug Armstrong went to that team around that time and replaced Larry Pleau, so a different voice in the front-office may influenced their plan a bit differently than what it was previously.

Compare to the Canucks (after drafting Pettersson and Hughes)
- Signed Roussel and Beagle to insane contracts
- Traded a 1st and 3rd for Miller (coming off a year they finished outside of the playoffs)
- Signed Myers and Ferland to a huge money deals
- Traded a 2nd and Madden for a rental in Toffoli (hadn't yet made playoffs and weren't a sure-bet to qualify that season)
- Did not manage any of their UFA assets well
- Moved a 1st, 2nd (and yes, bad contracts) to acquire Ekman-Larsson, Garland

Not exactly a series of moves a team should have been doing to build for the future, regardless of how things had worked out on both sides.

The way our UFA assets were managed was the killer. Letting a vezina-calibre goalie be acquired by another team for free is absolutely insane. 

We spent our futures/assets, and fumbled the pieces that could have replenished them.

 

Its hard to overstate the impact of those bonehead decisions.

[stawns]

6 minutes ago, eeeeergh said:

I think the biggest thing is we need a new wave of drafted homegrown talent, so I'd refer to it as a rebuild. 

 

Assuming we sell off 27 to 30+ year old vets for picks, we would have the 2023 and 2024 drafts to re-build the prospect pool. I think its reasonable to say that we'll get those players on ELCs in 2026-2027. That should coincide with Petey, Hughes, Podkolzin, Rathbone, Demko entering their best years (might be a bit late for demko though honestly, hard to say). 

 

I don't see another way to actually get this team competitive unless PA and JR unlock some truly god tier hockey trades and get monumentally lopsided returns. Otherwise, from a cap and asset perspective, acquiring what we need to be a contender just isn't going to be possible. It's got to come through the draft. 

 

If the 2023 draft is as stacked as they say, I honestly think it'd be possible for us to be competitive by 2026-2027. Imagine having 3-4 guys on ELCs that are playing like 3-5 million dollar players. That would give us the cap space to go out and get actual good vets in UFA (like NJ was able to do with Dougie Hamilton) instead of having to haggle over 400k of retained salary in order to make a deal work within our cap. 

they're not going for picks, that's not the kind of situation they are in.  They have a good young core to build on.......they need players/near ready prospects back, not picks

[Hairy Kneel]

We played better with Brisboise and Burroughs. 

 

[AnthonyG]

1 hour ago, Blue Jay 22 said:

Jim Benning set this franchise back for years, and should be sued by the fans for being a malpractice quack.

Well I mean the fans got what they asked for. Cried and complained about Eriksson (somewhat understandably) b!tched and whined about Beagle, Roussel and Sutter. The fans wanted them gone and now we cant kill a f***ing penalty or hardly win a draw. You can cry all you want that they were over paid, but these guys took care of their own end, blocked shots, killed penalties, won face-offs, which Horvat seems to be the only one doing that consistently. We also had won more games too! Fans cant sit back and be patient whatsoever and here we are 10 games into the season and everyones crying to blow it up. Its time to just shut up and ride it out. This is part of rebuilding, the growing pains. Vancouver hasnt really gone through a painful period of rebuilding. We had a 4 year retool from the Linden/Mogilny/Bure era in the late 90’s to the west coast express era and that later transitioned into the Sedin era and after that, there was nothing. Now its slowly becoming the Pettersson, Hughes, Demko, Podz, Boeser, Horvat, Miller era. Which there are no guarantees with the above mentioned, but its our foundation and these guys are still quite young and learning.

 

There is no need for any season saving knee-jerk reactionary moves right now. They need to figure it out on their own before they deserve help. They need to learn to battle through the losses and find ways to win. 

[Goal:thecup]

3 hours ago, BC_Hawk said:

At this stage, the team just needs a complete re-valuation. The FO talked tough..then did FA. Honestly, not sure if thats a rebuild OR just trading some key players. At this point:

 

1) Hire a long term coach that fits the scheme/system the FO wants. The fat man looks lost and confused this year.

 

2) Play the current players; let new coach evaluate play and their fit in the room

 

3) PA needs to follow coaches direction, and build team as they see fit. Maybe move a couple of the key players....maybe a core guy...maybe a trade for a room leader..who knows. Let's get a coach that can analyze that.

 

4)Draft and trade to fill voids with players that FIT THE SYSTEM AND ROOM

Have some respect. 

[stawns]

1 minute ago, Goal:thecup said:

Have some respect. 

I agree the fat man comment is offside for someone who seems like a good guy.........but he's not wrong, he looks completely over his head on the bench.

[eeeeergh]

1 minute ago, stawns said:

they're not going for picks, that's not the kind of situation they are in.  They have a good young core to build on.......they need players/near ready prospects back, not picks

Then we're cooked in my opinion. Because young NHL roster players aren't likely going to give us outsized returns on their contract value.

 

And to offset the amount of salary we're currently overpaying to players, we need players on ELCs playing like 3-5 million dollar players in order to have the cap space to fill the remaining gaps.

 

Not to mention the assets to trade. 

 

I hope if we miss the playoffs by a wide margin they do the right thing and load up on 2023 picks. Our current young core will be hitting their primes once the 2023 class is ready to contribute, its not too late to bolster this core through the draft. 

[AV.]

7 minutes ago, eeeeergh said:

The way our UFA assets were managed was the killer. Letting a vezina-calibre goalie be acquired by another team for free is absolutely insane. 

We spent our futures/assets, and fumbled the pieces that could have replenished them.

 

Its hard to overstate the impact of those bonehead decisions.

Losing Markstrom sucked, but it was understandable given Demko.  Tanev could be understood as well because of his injury past, and admittedly, they had the right idea getting Schmidt.

They made a huge mistake choosing Virtanen over Toffoli.  In fact, as soon as they traded assets to get a winger like Toffoli, the priority should have been to extend him.  For where they were at in their cycle, assets should have been moved for players with term (like Miller) or with a clear future to stick around (like Toffoli wanted to)  Likewise, not giving a better look to Troy Stecher, who had been a rock during that bubble playoffs, was a huge mistake.  Had to go through Poolman, Burroughs, and now Bear to try to find somebody in his ilk.

Edited November 2, 2022 by AV.