[RUMOUR] Vancouver and Columbus in trade talks

[aGENT]

1 minute ago, spook007 said:

Yes. This things we don't really know. 
I was against the rebuild at the time, and wanted the team to continue. 
In hindsight I feel, I was wrong... the returns would have been good enough to do a fast restart of a rebuild. 
Maybe yes and maybe no about Kessler ) he as well as a fair few others had NTCs in their contracts making it hard to move them, if they were unwilling, but start the rebuild 2 years earlier, and I think, players like Burrows and Hansen could have fetched more than they did. 

Burrows and Hansen both had down years IIRC. We actually rehabbed some of their value before moving them.

[AnthonyG]

3 hours ago, combover said:

Nonis lololololololololilol.

 

louie was dropped in his lap by another incompetent idiot. 
Are  you talking about the same nonis that drafted Patrick white 

dave bonus was basically Brian burkes coat tails.

gillis turned one of the worst draft picks ever into a solid important d for our cup run, he inherited team and he finished putting it together if he didn’t do anything why did nonis get fired why was burke not resigned… 

 

gillis wasnt perfect but he was far superior to nonis and to no plan dim jim Benning who in 8 season couldn’t get his head out of his own ass. 

Only a Canucks fan would think the gm during the most successful period in franchise history sucks and the the gm during the worst period in franchise history did a good job.lolololololololol. 
 

Gillis inheritted

H. Sedin, D. Sedin, Bieksa, Edler, Salo, Kelser, Luongo, Burrows, Hansen, Schneider.
 

His major additions were Hamhuis and Erhoff, Higgins and Malhotra

 

Nonis acquired Luongo which was probably the far more important piece out of all acquisitions. Which is also thanks to Burke drafting Brian Allen and signing Todd Bertuzzi, without those trade chips, there might not have been a Luongo. He also drafted Edler, Raymond and Hansen, signed Burrows and provided Gillis with the trade chip that landed Horvat.

 

Burke drafted the Twins, Kesler, Bieksa and acquired Salo.

 

Gillis in the grand scheme of things added very little and within 4 years of having the best team in the regular season 2 years in a row, we were a basement team. Players controlled their own destinations, they were aged and harder to move, we had zero prospects outside of Horvat who was looking like a long shot due to his skating his rookie season. 
 

Gillis is the most overrated GM by a landslide, he was handed the cake and all he had to do was add sprinkles. JB is under appreciated for what he was able to do, given what he was handed, he had a completely aged out core that no one would pay a premium for, they also held the keys to their own destination and after 8 years of drafting prior to JBs arrival, he had no real prospects to work with. Ontop of owners expectations and demands. Gillis sacked the future for a cup and it didnt work out. Between Gillis and Nonis’s inability to draft and develop players, it is why we have taken so long to get back to a competitive team. You know why Van was so successful from 2003-2012? Because we were able to draft and develop players from 2003-2006 in the minors like Bieksa, Kesler, Hansen, Raymond, Burrows (undrafted but developed) the majority of our core pieces were able to develop in the minors while the WCE dominated in the NHL and the twins learned at the NHL level. Burke built that foundation for the future and Gillis and Nonis destroyed it. We hadnt really developed any impact NHLers from 2006 onward. We are finally starting to see guys come up from the minors and slowly making a name for themselves. Its a slow process, but we have a core in place that will hold spots for awhile and as we see guys coming up in the minors, we can shift bodies out, acquires picks, restock the farm and inject the youth as we go and keep the machine turning. Thats what will lead to a cup, years and years of being competitive and developing NHL players to keep us competitive for years and years to come. 

Edited November 25, 2022 by AnthonyG

[Jester13]

13 hours ago, Bad_BOI_pete said:

anyways i'm no expert on Socrates. 

 

I have my thoughts on Socratic method and frankly think it's all dirty pool.

 

there are many people that have deep understanding of certain topics, but could never explain it truly well. People with Asbergers would have a tough time explaining their views, especially while being scutinized under the socratic method. 

 

A guilty conscience never feels secure. ~ Syru

 

Suspicion always haunts the guilty mind; the thief doth fear each bush an officer. ~ William Shakespeare

How glowing guilt exalts the keen delight! ~ Alexander Pope

 

Socrates at his trial claimed he was a gift from the gods. This right here proves to me that he was acting with malicious intent.

 

Socrates then requested that his wealth be stricken of him, and be provided food and shelter instead of his likely death sentence: he claimed his life more valuable to Greek than his death. and one could argue that he chose these punishment's because he did not care for his life, instead only he cared for his power to influence. 

 

I believe he was being Ironic when he states "The only thing i know is that i know nothing" and also decietful. this made him impervious to scrutiny as he could always claim he was not an expert on the matter. It's something to think about.

 

13 hours ago, Bad_BOI_pete said:

anyways i'm no expert on Socrates. 

 

I have my thoughts on Socratic method and frankly think it's all dirty pool.

 

there are many people that have deep understanding of certain topics, but could never explain it truly well. People with Asbergers would have a tough time explaining their views, especially while being scutinized under the socratic method. 

 

A guilty conscience never feels secure. ~ Syru

 

Suspicion always haunts the guilty mind; the thief doth fear each bush an officer. ~ William Shakespeare

How glowing guilt exalts the keen delight! ~ Alexander Pope

 

Socrates at his trial claimed he was a gift from the gods. This right here proves to me that he was acting with malicious intent.

 

Socrates then requested that his wealth be stricken of him, and be provided food and shelter instead of his likely death sentence: he claimed his life more valuable to Greek than his death. and one could argue that he chose these punishment's because he did not care for his life, instead only he cared for his power to influence. 

 

I believe he was being Ironic when he states "The only thing i know is that i know nothing" and also decietful. this made him impervious to scrutiny as he could always claim he was not an expert on the matter. It's something to think about.

Socrates was merely showing the danger behind those who lack the skills of, or resist entirely, intellectual inquiry. For that, he was accused of corrupting the youth with his method of discovery, as those in power knew where it would lead society: citizens with more knowledge and the ability to question = those in power having less power. With this in mind, of course he decided to drink hemlock and be martyr for his fellow Grecians, for if he took his other option to leave Athens and stop philosophizing, what would society look like if it continued to stifle inquiry? (Hint: look at current events.) 

When you're not married to your ideas and opinions and your ultimate goal is knowledge discovery, then of course you are impervious to scrutiny, as you are not the subject up for debate and discussion but rather the ideas are.

 

Since we're quoting others: "When my information changes, I alter my conclusions. What do you do, sir?” - John Maynard Keynes

 

To bring this back to hockey, there are many who claim absolutes quite often here on CDC; and then those absolutes get challenged; and then emotions erupt; and then chaos ensues between fans. Imagine if we were able to discuss topics without puffing our ego chests whenever someone challenges our hard stances...

[spook007]

43 minutes ago, AnthonyG said:

Gillis inheritted

H. Sedin, D. Sedin, Bieksa, Edler, Salo, Kelser, Luongo, Burrows, Hansen, Schneider.
 

His major additions were Hamhuis and Erhoff, Higgins and Malhotra

 

Nonis acquired Luongo which was probably the far more important piece out of all acquisitions. Which is also thanks to Burke drafting Brian Allen and signing Todd Bertuzzi, without those trade chips, there might not have been a Luongo. He also drafted Edler, Raymond and Hansen, signed Burrows and provided Gillis with the trade chip that landed Horvat.

 

Burke drafted the Twins, Kesler, Bieksa and acquired Salo.

 

Gillis in the grand scheme of things added very little and within 4 years of having the best team in the regular season 2 years in a row, we were a basement team. Players controlled their own destinations, they were aged and harder to move, we had zero prospects outside of Horvat who was looking like a long shot due to his skating his rookie season. 
 

Gillis is the most overrated GM by a landslide, he was handed the cake and all he had to do was add sprinkles. JB is under appreciated for what he was able to do, given what he was handed, he had a completely aged out core that no one would pay a premium for, they also held the keys to their own destination and after 8 years of drafting prior to JBs arrival, he had no real prospects to work with. Ontop of owners expectations and demands. Gillis sacked the future for a cup and it didnt work out. Between Gillis and Nonis’s inability to draft and develop players, it is why we have taken so long to get back to a competitive team. You know why Van was so successful from 2003-2012? Because we were able to draft and develop players from 2003-2006 in the minors like Bieksa, Kesler, Hansen, Raymond, Burrows (undrafted but developed) the majority of our core pieces were able to develop in the minors while the WCE dominated in the NHL and the twins learned at the NHL level. Burke built that foundation for the future and Gillis and Nonis destroyed it. We hadnt really developed any impact NHLers from 2006 onward. We are finally starting to see guys come up from the minors and slowly making a name for themselves. Its a slow process, but we have a core in place that will hold spots for awhile and as we see guys coming up in the minors, we can shift bodies out, acquires picks, restock the farm and inject the youth as we go and keep the machine turning. Thats what will lead to a cup, years and years of being competitive and developing NHL players to keep us competitive for years and years to come. 

While I don't disagree with any of that, I still believe (now) that if the rebuild has started, when Gilles said start, we would be further along. 
Under Gilles we sucked at drafting except for Bo, but maybe we could have done better with better draft position. And even if we had taken a new GM at the time, we could have been further along and probably more competitive now. 

I don't know, but the route we took hasn't been easy, and while we have some decent players, I don't thibk we are able ti properly compete, and even with a fee changes we may struggle. 
I know, you were wanting us to trade Miller and rightfully so, just to get so cap space if nothing else...

 

At the moment we are floating around struggling to stay above water. 

[Coconuts]

So.. how about Columbus? Horvat? Miller? 

Edited November 25, 2022 by Coconuts

[Jester13]

4 minutes ago, Coconuts said:

So.. how about Columbus? Horvat? Miller? 

No news is good news?

[Junkyard Dog]

1 minute ago, Jester13 said:

No news is good news?

Not for me. I want news.

[Jester13]

Just now, Junkyard Dog said:

Not for me. I want news.

Miller and Rathbone/Hoglander for Jiricek. Any day now...

[Coconuts]

5 minutes ago, Jester13 said:

No news is good news?

[N4ZZY]

15 hours ago, King Heffy said:

ah, my bad. he's got 2 goals. I guess he's been so absent in terms of his injury, that I totally forgot he scored two. 

 

[Jester13]

4 minutes ago, Coconuts said:

[N4ZZY]

3 minutes ago, Coconuts said:

Yeah, maybe not in this case. There's a rumour out there that Rutherford's going to wait a couple more months before dealing with Bo. Like, what the heck? He's been waiting literally the entire summer, and now the first 2-3 months of the season. Is this Rutherford a senile version? He doesn't seem to be saying the right things, or doing anything. Allvin seems to be lost as the GM. 

 

I think no news in this case with Bo, is probably bad news. Feeling disrespected by management, this can't go well. 

 

If he leaves, Miller better not be made captain, I'll lose my $hit if that happens. 

 

[N4ZZY]

6 minutes ago, Jester13 said:

Miller and Rathbone/Hoglander for Jiricek. Any day now...

I'd do that deal. 

 

[N4ZZY]

17 minutes ago, Coconuts said:

So.. how about Columbus? Horvat? Miller? 

Ship Miller to Columbus, sign Bo to the deal that he should've gotten before Miller. Everyone's happy. Continue to build around the Captain, and the core with additional pieces in the summer, or through trades. 

[King Heffy]

2 minutes ago, N4ZZY said:

I'd do that deal. 

 

I'd be happy to drive them to the airport.

[Warhippy]

2 minutes ago, N4ZZY said:

Ship Miller to Columbus, sign Bo to the deal that he should've gotten before Miller. Everyone's happy. Continue to build around the Captain, and the core with additional pieces in the summer, or through trades. 

Apparently columbus doesn't "want" Miller

[Alflives]

12 minutes ago, Warhippy said:

Apparently columbus doesn't "want" Miller

what about Philly then?  Close to home for JTM too.  Wonder what kind of return we could get?  Any D we would want from them?  I guess we'd have to take back the same cap.

[King Heffy]

3 minutes ago, Alflives said:

what about Philly then?  Close to home for JTM too.  Wonder what kind of return we could get?  Any D we would want from them?  I guess we'd have to take back the same cap.

Owen Pickering would be a nice pickup from Pittsburgh, who should also be interested.

Edited November 25, 2022 by King Heffy

[Alflives]

5 minutes ago, King Heffy said:

Owen Pickering would be a nice pickup from Pittsburgh, who should also be interested.

As part of any Miller (or Bo) deal I'm hopeful we will get back youth.  Pickering would be great.  But we will need to take back equal cap that's going out.  

[AnthonyG]

52 minutes ago, spook007 said:

While I don't disagree with any of that, I still believe (now) that if the rebuild has started, when Gilles said start, we would be further along. 
Under Gilles we sucked at drafting except for Bo, but maybe we could have done better with better draft position. And even if we had taken a new GM at the time, we could have been further along and probably more competitive now. 

I don't know, but the route we took hasn't been easy, and while we have some decent players, I don't thibk we are able ti properly compete, and even with a fee changes we may struggle. 
I know, you were wanting us to trade Miller and rightfully so, just to get so cap space if nothing else...

 

At the moment we are floating around struggling to stay above water. 

As important as draft position is, imo development is more important. How many top 5 picks remain the best 5 players of their draft in order too. You’ll see a lot of players drop and a lot of players rise and that is largely due to development. You can take a top 5 pick and ruin them, or you can take a mid to late first or even beyond and develop them into a better player than the guy drafted way ahead of them and it happens all the time. Draft position is just best chances of an NHLer, its what you do after drafting that will have a greater impact imo. Yes draft position does matter, but to a certain extent. 
in the ‘99 draft for example, Vrbata and Zetterberg were selected 210 and 212th. They are the 3rd and 4th highest producing players behind Daniel and Henrik. What happened to the rest of the first round picks? Colorado and Detroit were power houses back then and they had the time to slowly develop long shot draft picks into quality NHLers. This happens every single year and down the road you see the teams who had a strong farm system produce quality NHLers that have more of an impact at the NHL level than a fair share of high end draft picks on basement teams with zero support/foundation for guys to learn. Vrbata and Zetterberg spent 2-3 years developing before getting an NHL gig. Its going on right now with a lot of top teams that keep “finding these gems” that really are drafting a player with a skill set and they are letting them marinate in the minors for a few years and all of the sudden everyone is like “omg how did we miss that?!”

 

Jason Robertson right now is another example, drafted in 2017, spent 3 seasons in the Q and a bit in the AHL and became a full time NHLer in 2020-21….. patience is a virtue and development is the key. 
 

I could go on and on and on about late picks that spent a few years developing and are impact players today. This is what fans do not understand about just how far Gillis and Nonis’s drafting failures from 2005-2013 set us back. It’s unfortunate what happened with Bourdon (RIP) and you cant blame anyone for that, but it is a draft that is part of the set back. We’re lucky that Horvat was able to put so much effort into his skating to become a solid NHLer. Otherwise he coulda been another failure to go along with Shinkaruk, Gaunce, Hodgson, Jensen, Schroeder and White.

 

Late round picks that walk onto an NHL team and light the league up are clearly missed picks. But guys who are drafted late and spend time in the minors developing are not missed picks, they are picks that were properly developed. 
 

Kucherov was drafted late in the 2nd round, he wasnt lighting it on fire, bounced between KHL and Russian jr league, came over to NA, spent some time in the AHL and NHL, wasnt anything spectacular in the NHL to start, but slowly grew into an elite players. Gaudreau was in the same draft and spent 3 seasons in college before becoming an NHLer…. Like these guys were not missed by the rest of the league, it was merely development.