[Trade] Canucks trade Bo Horvat to Islanders for Anthony Beauvillier, Aatu Raty, 2023 1st-round draft pick

[DownUndaCanuck]

4 hours ago, BPA said:

Lol.

 

So you’re not taking into account that he’s been on a bad team for pretty much his entire career??  That he’s often put on the defensive duties against other teams top lines??

 

Miller joined the Canucks in 2019.

+11

-7

+15

-14

 

Bo from 2019

-15

-6

+3

+3

 

Neither are defensive stalwarts.  BUT who does the coach put out to take the draws or go against the other teams top lines?? Who does the coach put out there in the dying minutes??  It’s Bo every time.

 

So don’t tell me the Miller is so much better at defending than Bo when that is far from the truth.

 

This is prime proof of how useless the +/- stat is. Miller plays risky, he sacrifices defence for scoring. Obviously it pays off a lot, and did last year when he was playing with Petey, but now it's not. He's a -14 this year.

 

The eyeball test is much better, just look at how out of position he is on so many goals against, and how many stupid unnecessary turnovers have lead to goals against. You can score as much as you want but those goals against have been daggers and the reason we're so low in the standings. Look at Seattle, barely have a PPG player but they don't make Miller-like dumb plays defensively.

 

The +/- also doesn't get affected by how crap we are on the PK.

 

Some other stats are far more telling about his defensive game.

 

Miller leads the team with giveaways at 33. Bo has 15.

 

Miller's all up goals against/for including special teams is -2. Bo was +15. 

 

Horvat has a slightly better corsi % (51 to 50).

 

Stats don't tell the whole tale, especially of defensive play. Bo is no Selke candidate but Miller is straight up bad.

[Odd.]

2 hours ago, DownUndaCanuck said:

This is prime proof of how useless the +/- stat is. Miller plays risky, he sacrifices defence for scoring. Obviously it pays off a lot, and did last year when he was playing with Petey, but now it's not. He's a -14 this year.

 

The eyeball test is much better, just look at how out of position he is on so many goals against, and how many stupid unnecessary turnovers have lead to goals against. You can score as much as you want but those goals against have been daggers and the reason we're so low in the standings. Look at Seattle, barely have a PPG player but they don't make Miller-like dumb plays defensively.

 

The +/- also doesn't get affected by how crap we are on the PK.

 

Some other stats are far more telling about his defensive game.

 

Miller leads the team with giveaways at 33. Bo has 15.

 

Miller's all up goals against/for including special teams is -2. Bo was +15. 

 

Horvat has a slightly better corsi % (51 to 50).

 

Stats don't tell the whole tale, especially of defensive play. Bo is no Selke candidate but Miller is straight up bad.

I mean I don’t know how you can say a player who’s been a PPG for 4 seasons and is coming off a 100 point season as being bad. 
 

Horvat was our captain and we all loved him, but let’s not act he was better than Miller. Miller by all accounts is having a down year, Horvat is having his best career season to date on his contract year. He’s been a 50-60 point player his entire career. I don’t think I’ve ever seen this much of a performance from a player on their contract year.

 

I understand Horvat was on some bad teams, but Miller in his first year gave us a PPG season for the first time since 2012. Horvat also didn’t show he was capable of scoring the way he is right now. Scoring was also significantly lower around the league at that time. Everyone’s stats are inflated today, especially the last 2 years with the goalie equipment change, the amount of penalties being called, and the amount of empty nets being scored.

 

Sure Horvat won us a ton of faceoffs, but look where we stand in the league in that department. You can’t rely on a single player to take draws. Every single centerman needs to be around 50% if you want to be considered a strong face off team. There is slim evidence that winning faceoffs directly correlates to winning as well. 
 

I don’t even like Miller, his attitude is garbage, and I would have much rather kept Horvat than Miller among other reasons. However, Miller is the better player.

[Boudrias]

8 hours ago, Elias Pettersson said:

Klimovich is going to be a star.  He has all the tools.  Big, strong, fast, great shot.  He needs to work on his defensive game, but Colliton is working that out.  I say he makes the Canucks in 2 years...

I wonder if Gonchar has gone to Abby yet. A visit to pump up Podz and Klim. How to play CUP quality defence and how the forwards are a part of the equation. 

[BPA]

27 minutes ago, Odd. said:

I mean I don’t know how you can say a player who’s been a PPG for 4 seasons and is coming off a 100 point season as being bad. 
 

Horvat was our captain and we all loved him, but let’s not act he was better than Miller. Miller by all accounts is having a down year, Horvat is having his best career season to date on his contract year. He’s been a 50-60 point player his entire career. I don’t think I’ve ever seen this much of a performance from a player on their contract year.

 

I understand Horvat was on some bad teams, but Miller in his first year gave us a PPG season for the first time since 2012. Horvat also didn’t show he was capable of scoring the way he is right now. Scoring was also significantly lower around the league at that time. Everyone’s stats are inflated today, especially the last 2 years with the goalie equipment change, the amount of penalties being called, and the amount of empty nets being scored.

 

Sure Horvat won us a ton of faceoffs, but look where we stand in the league in that department. You can’t rely on a single player to take draws. Every single centerman needs to be around 50% if you want to be considered a strong face off team. There is slim evidence that winning faceoffs directly correlates to winning as well. 
 

I don’t even like Miller, his attitude is garbage, and I would have much rather kept Horvat than Miller among other reasons. However, Miller is the better player.

The argument made was that Miller was defensively better than Bo.  NOT that Miller was better overall player.

[Gawdzukes]

3 hours ago, DownUndaCanuck said:

This is prime proof of how useless the +/- stat is. Miller plays risky, he sacrifices defence for scoring. Obviously it pays off a lot, and did last year when he was playing with Petey, but now it's not. He's a -14 this year.

 

The eyeball test is much better, just look at how out of position he is on so many goals against, and how many stupid unnecessary turnovers have lead to goals against. You can score as much as you want but those goals against have been daggers and the reason we're so low in the standings. Look at Seattle, barely have a PPG player but they don't make Miller-like dumb plays defensively.

 

The +/- also doesn't get affected by how crap we are on the PK.

 

Some other stats are far more telling about his defensive game.

 

Miller leads the team with giveaways at 33. Bo has 15.

 

Miller's all up goals against/for including special teams is -2. Bo was +15. 

 

Horvat has a slightly better corsi % (51 to 50).

 

Stats don't tell the whole tale, especially of defensive play. Bo is no Selke candidate but Miller is straight up bad.

It's plain as day to anyone with a trained eye and non-bias.

[EdgarM]

8 hours ago, Mike Vanderhoek said:

Exactly. These points might seem overrated by some or seen as minor no big deal details but this is the kind of stuff the team needs to rectify.

 

I am sure the Canucks would have loved to keep Bo's scoring and faceoffs but Rutherford/Allvin very likely knew from the onset this trade was going to have to happen. The unpopular decisions they spoke of.

 

I am excited to see how Tocchet can reach a player like Miller and mold that passion he has.

I totally second this idea. This has been our kryptonite for years. Its a tactic that we are susceptible to because we don't have that pack mentality. You want to throw our stars off their game? get physical with them because no one will be sticking up for them. I think every one of our stars have had it happen to them at one point in their careers. 

We are also susceptible to teams out working us. Pressure is applied and we cannot answer with any push back.

This does not apply to every game but when teams like Vegas and Seattle play us, we do not bode well. The playoffs also gives us the same problems and is probably why we haven't seen much success over the years. Remember when Ferlund took us out of the playoffs single handedly?

[-DLC-]

36 minutes ago, EdgarM said:

I totally second this idea. This has been our kryptonite for years. Its a tactic that we are susceptible to because we don't have that pack mentality. You want to throw our stars off their game? get physical with them because no one will be sticking up for them. I think every one of our stars have had it happen to them at one point in their careers. 

We are also susceptible to teams out working us. Pressure is applied and we cannot answer with any push back.

This does not apply to every game but when teams like Vegas and Seattle play us, we do not bode well. The playoffs also gives us the same problems and is probably why we haven't seen much success over the years. Remember when Ferlund took us out of the playoffs single handedly?

A little bit of that is the damn inconsistency in officiating.

 

Myers gets penalized if his breath reaches another player.

 

We've always had the book thrown at us for infractions that some other teams can get away with. Slide under the radar. The white towel has followed us and we just can't do what some other teams (Bruins) can. It's handcuffed this team and I think the "don't or we'll get penalized", which is based in reality, should be thrown out the window at times. Go for it anyhow, it'll soon change. Which is why I don't think we should let Schenn go. Then what?

[Timråfan]

8 hours ago, BPA said:

Who does the coach put out to take the draws or go against the other teams top lines?? Who does the coach put out there in the dying minutes??  It’s Bo every time.

 

Not to forget his defensive partners Loui and Pearson.

Did Baertschi fill that role before them?

[-DLC-]

Use your words @jyu

 

Do you feel we get good officiating and can play a physical game? I've been watching this team a whole lot....I'm pretty sure it's quite lopsided.

[RWJC]

9 hours ago, Elias Pettersson said:

No way BO was going to jump Domi and risk injury.  His retirement contract is more important than sticking up for his teammates...

edit: posted before catching up on thread, apologies 

Bo is also his good friend. 
Lots of other good examples though.

 

https://theprovince.com/sports/hockey/willes-bo-horvat-and-max-domi-were-rivals-at-10-now-friends-for-life/wcm/a172ccec-2931-4dfb-9146-c8c258dbddb7/amp/

 

Edited February 4, 2023 by RWJC

[jyu]

8 minutes ago, -DLC- said:

A little bit of that is the damn inconsistency in officiating.

 

Myers gets penalized if his breath reaches another player.

 

We've always had the book thrown at us for infractions that some other teams can get away with. Slide under the radar. The white towel has followed us and we just can't do what some other teams (Bruins) can. It's handcuffed this team and I think the "don't or we'll get penalized", which is based in reality, should be thrown out the window at times. Go for it anyhow, it'll soon change. Which is why I don't think we should let Schenn go. Then what?

This was true maybe a while ago. 
 

I feel embarrassed blaming the refs these days. We get a lot of power play opportunities of our own each game. 
 

And i think most of the penalties we get called for are reasonable. They do make mistakes yes, but it’s on the team to kill those off so as to not let it decide the game because all of the other teams suffer from poor and random officiating. 
 

A lot of the new referees that came in don’t really have animosity or hate towards our team or the players. 
 

We haven’t really had any player suspended as of late either so I don’t quite like this narrative of the book thrown at us while other teams and other players get away free. 

[jyu]

Just now, -DLC- said:

Use your words @jyu

 

Do you feel we get good officiating and can play a physical game? I've been watching this team a whole lot....I'm pretty sure it's quite lopsided.

Was just responding but yes i think the officiating hasn’t been too bad as of late. 

[-DLC-]

Just now, jyu said:

Was just responding but yes i think the officiating hasn’t been too bad as of late. 

"as of late"

 

(because we haven't been playing?)

 

OK, thanks for at least confirming that.

[jyu]

2 minutes ago, -DLC- said:

Use your words @jyu

 

Do you feel we get good officiating and can play a physical game? I've been watching this team a whole lot....I'm pretty sure it's quite lopsided.

Physical game of old days have disappeared from the NHL all together. 
 

It’s not just us that isn’t playing physical because of fear of penalty/suspension. 

[-DLC-]

4 minutes ago, jyu said:

This was true maybe a while ago. 
 

I feel embarrassed blaming the refs these days. We get a lot of power play opportunities of our own each game. 
 

And i think most of the penalties we get called for are reasonable. They do make mistakes yes, but it’s on the team to kill those off so as to not let it decide the game because all of the other teams suffer from poor and random officiating. 
 

A lot of the new referees that came in don’t really have animosity or hate towards our team or the players. 
 

We haven’t really had any player suspended as of late either so I don’t quite like this narrative of the book thrown at us while other teams and other players get away free. 

We've played cautiously so to avoid a suspension. That much is obvious. Timing is everything in relation to pp's....factors in.

 

How many times are our guys also assessed a penalty after someone else has gone at them post whistle. That it gets evened out and we're assessed penalties for standing there?

 

It's fine ... you think the officiating's ok and I don't. Matter of opinion, that's all.

 

We weren't talking about how a team fares when penalized...we're talking about physical play and how some teams are given more liberties than others. 

 

Cheers.

[jyu]

1 minute ago, -DLC- said:

"as of late"

 

(because we haven't been playing?)

 

OK, thanks for at least confirming that.

What you are suggesting is a conjecture at best because according to you we haven’t been playing physical anyways due to the fear of penalty. It can’t be confirmed either way. 

[-DLC-]

1 minute ago, jyu said:

What you are suggesting is a conjecture at best because according to you we haven’t been playing physical anyways due to the fear of penalty. It can’t be confirmed either way. 

But the crappy officiating can be if you look hard enough.

[jyu]

1 minute ago, -DLC- said:

We've played cautiously so to avoid a suspension. 

 

Timing is everything in relation to pp's....factors in.

 

It's fine ... you think the officiating's ok and I don't. Matter of opinion, that's all.

 

We weren't talking about how a team fares when penalized...we're talking about physical play and how some teams are given more liberties than others. 

 

Cheers.

Sure difference of opinion. 
 

I don’t agree that other teams get away free. Might be good to watch other games if you have time before you blame the league or the refs for our lack  of physical play. 
 

cheers

[jyu]

5 minutes ago, -DLC- said:

We've played cautiously so to avoid a suspension. 

 

Timing is everything in relation to pp's....factors in.

 

It's fine ... you think the officiating's ok and I don't. Matter of opinion, that's all.

 

We weren't talking about how a team fares when penalized...we're talking about physical play and how some teams are given more liberties than others. 

 

Cheers.

Maybe we played cautiously to avoid taking penalties because we know we can’t kill one off if we get called. Because physical contact could lead to accidental penalties where you trip a player or high stick the guy. 

[RWJC]

Whatever the case, the team should not be playing in response to anything. That’s one of the major problems with this club.

They are generally successful when they stick to a style of play and do not deviate regardless of strategy or circumstance against them. When we play a reactionary game we’re pretty much burying ourselves.

Team toughness is one thing.

Learning how to apply it consistently when you have it is another. One benefit of Tocchet behind the bench will hopefully be to reel that in, and utilize players (like Schenn’s) who walk the talk as examples.