[DEBATE] Which player are you taking, Elias Pettersson or Jack Hughes?

[Elias Pettersson]

This debate is for my friend, @Bob.Loblaw.  If you had a choice and the cap numbers didn't matter, which player are you taking?  Elias Pettersson or Jack Hughes?

 

Simple.  Straight forward.  May the best man win.  Have fun...   

 

[Elias Pettersson]

Of course I'm taking Petey...   

[CanuckleHorse]

It’s pretty much a toss up they both are very gifted offensive players but different styles of play one is a speedster the other is a wizard with his stick.

[EddieVedder]

Petey by a mile.

All these soft little american players get way too overrated on this board.

[DrJockitch]

I think Jack may be the most exciting player have seen since Bure (I always exclude McDavid from any discussions, he is an outlier). 
EP is the better overall player and the one would prefer to build around.

[HorvatToBaertschi]

I'll take the one who plays on the defensive end at an elite level

[Baratheon]

9 minutes ago, HorvatToBaertschi said:

I'll take the one who plays on the defensive end at an elite level

This is how I feel as well.  Defense is the difference.  

If the question was "who is the better offensive player" it would be close.  If you look at their overall game then you have to go with EP.

[HorvatToBaertschi]

1 minute ago, Baratheon said:

This is how I feel as well.  Defense is the difference.  

If the question was "who is the better offensive player" it would be close.  If you look at their overall game then you have to go with EP.

Exactly. Offense is a wash, defense is a landslide win for Petey. Easy decision at this point in time. 

[IBatch]

Before I answer, one was just ranked in the top 10, by THN, the other low 20's (their top 50 current players).   Don't need to say who they picked in the top ten.   A couple points separated them, ones a few years younger and scored more goals, on a better team.   If we were NJ fans, who do you think would win this poll?

 

If we had to build around one player, have to go with the one that  got 99 points, think 43 goals but won't look it up.   The kids only 22.

 

Actually don't know if that's the right choice either.   

Edited September 14, 2023 by IBatch

[HorvatToBaertschi]

10 minutes ago, IBatch said:

Before I answer, one was just ranked in the top 10, by THN, the other low 20's (their top 50 current players).   Don't need to say who they picked in the top ten.   A couple points separated them, ones a few years younger and scored more goals, on a better team.   If we were NJ fans, who do you think would win this poll?

 

If we had to build around one player, have to go with the one that  got 99 points, think 43 goals but won't look it up.   The kids only 22.

 

Actually don't know if that's the right choice either.   

Pettersson was better offensively while having 20% less OZS%, on a much weaker team, and a year where he couldn't bury his one timer for half the season. THEN you add the elite defense, where he honestly got shafted ending up 7th in Selke voting, after being a projected nominee during the entire first 3/4 of the season.

 

Basically, Pettersson's offense is better than Hughes' (and much better than the 3 point difference indicates), all while playing defense at an elite rate.

 

Pettersson is objectively the better player. Most voters and people who create lists don't stay up until 1am to watch Pettersson play. 

 

This is no slight on Hughes, as he's an elite forward that's incredibly fun to watch. Pettersson is just a top 5 forward in the league and the media just haven't accepted it yet, mostly because they don't watch him play. 

Edited September 14, 2023 by HorvatToBaertschi

[Alflives]

Petey is on our team. Love Petey!

Jack Hughes is on another team. Hate him! 

[IBatch]

19 minutes ago, HorvatToBaertschi said:

Pettersson was better offensively while having 20% less OZS%, on a much weaker team, and a year where he couldn't bury his one timer for half the season. THEN you add the elite defense, where he honestly got shafted ending up 7th in Selke voting, after being a projected nominee during the entire first 3/4 of the season.

 

Basically, Pettersson's offense is better than Hughes' (and much better than the 3 point difference indicates), all while playing defense at an elite rate.

 

Pettersson is objectively the better player. Most voters and people who create lists don't stay up until 1am to watch Pettersson play. 

 

This is no slight on Hughes, as he's an elite forward that's incredibly fun to watch. Pettersson is just a top 5 forward in the league and the media just haven't accepted it yet, mostly because they don't watch him play. 

Rest of my post didn't show up.   Voted EP anyways,  because well he's our guy.   EP was better defensively last season, one season isn't a career of course.    Jack Hughes was the better player at 22.   As for being shafted that's not true.   Stone is much better defensively.   And has been since he was in his mid -20's, not even close really, that's the bar I have for those guys.  Centres get more attention than they sometimes should, because they take face-offs.   Actually don't think Bergeron was a deserving winner last year,  because of his TOI.    EPs got a ways to go to win a Selke.   Marner was awesome on TO's PK, the main reason it was effective.  There are actually quite a few guys that are very good on both sides of the puck.   Feel EP came right in where he should have, no small thing either.    

 

As for the media.   That's a pretty bold statement (top five forward).    Even top five center is bold, let alone forward.    Let's see how he does this year first.   EP has one solid season under his belt, start to finish.   As an aside, EP was ranked 24th best player by THN, Hughes at 9, Barkov, EPs best comp, at 26th.   Of course that's subjective.   But these guys watch a lot more games than we do.    EPs ranked at 8 for centers. 

Edited September 14, 2023 by IBatch

[HorvatToBaertschi]

12 minutes ago, IBatch said:

Rest of my post didn't show up.   Voted EP anyways,  because well he's our guy.   EP was better defensively last season, one season isn't a career of course.    Jack Hughes was the better player at 22.   As for being shafted that's not true.   Stone is much better defensively.   And has been since he was in his mid -20's, not even close really, that's the bar I have for those guys.  Centres get more attention than they sometimes should, because they take face-offs.   Actually don't think Bergeron was a deserving winner last year,  because of his TOI.    EPs got a ways to go to win a Selke.   Marner was awesome on TO's PK, the main reason it was effective.  There are actually quite a few guys that are very good on both sides of the puck.   Feel EP came right in where he should have, no small thing either.    

 

As for the media.   That's a pretty bold statement (top five forward).    Even top five center is bold, let alone forward.    Let's see how he does this year first.   EP has one solid season under his belt, start to finish.   

So does Jack Hughes but he's being labelled a top 10 player in the league.

 

You'd be hard pressed to find me a 100 point player that ends up top 10 in Selke voting. That's top 10 in scoring and top 10 in defensive prowess (amongst the elite forwards of course, since actual defensive forwards NEVER get credit for the Selke). You got Marner, who's a winger, which loses him just a tad of value in the discussion. 

 

So for me... top 10 in points + top 10 on the defensive end for forwards = top 5 forward. 

Edited September 14, 2023 by HorvatToBaertschi

[Ghostsof1915]

Even if Petey ended up with lesser numbers than Hughes. He plays a better overall game. If Petey can work on improving faceoffs, he will be one of the better all around centres in the league.

[stawns]

Petey and it's not even close for me.  He might be the most complete player in the league

[IBatch]

13 minutes ago, HorvatToBaertschi said:

So does Jack Hughes but he's being labelled a top 10 player in the league.

 

You'd be hard pressed to find me a 100 point player that ends up top 10 in Selke voting. That's top 10 in scoring and top 10 in defensive prowess (amongst the elite forwards of course, since actual defensive forwards NEVER get credit for the Selke). You got Marner, who's a winger, which loses him just a tad of value in the discussion. 

 

So for me... top 10 in points + top 10 on the defensive end for forwards = top 5 forward. 

Bob Gainey.  Guy Carbanou.  Bobby Clark near the end of his career.   Jere Lehtinen.   Mark Stone.     Kesler.   Bergeron.   There are loads of guys, who didn't get top points in the league, but win Selkes or were regular finalists.    Kesler himself won his most productive season, but was a finalist five times (think in a row) scoring 50ish points.    Datsyuk and Federov were guys who won with a lot of points.   Maybe we've got that?   Barkov is another guy who's usually  in the Selke discussion and can put up points too.  Suppose recently Marner as well.   

Edited September 14, 2023 by IBatch

[HorvatToBaertschi]

7 minutes ago, IBatch said:

Bob Gainey.  Guy Carbanou, wouldn't say ever.  Bobby Clark near the end of his career.   Jere Lehtinen.   Mark Stone.     Kesler.   Bergeron.   There are loads of guys, who didn't get top points in the league, but win Selkes or were regular finalists.    Kesler himself won his most productive season, but was a finalist five times (think in a row) scoring 50ish points.    Datsyuk and Federov were guys who won with a lot of points.   Maybe we've got that?   

Sorry, that was not my point. I'm saying that the actual defensive players (3Cs for example) don't get credit for the Selke nowadays. Yes, some elite defensive-minded players got Selke nominations and wins (although Kesler finally winning it the year Malhotra took over his defensive duties is quite laughable, shows how much the media watch the Canucks play), which makes Pettersson finishing in the top 10 in both points AND Selke votes all the more impressive imo. But don't mistake it, Selke votes are based purely on which forwards with high points also happen to be good defensively. After that, don't even get me started on how it's the most reputation-based trophy out there. 

Edited September 14, 2023 by HorvatToBaertschi

[IBatch]

9 minutes ago, HorvatToBaertschi said:

Sorry, that was not my point. I'm saying that the actual defensive players (3Cs for example) don't get credit for the Selke nowadays. Yes, some elite defensive-minded players got Selke nominations and wins (although Kesler finally winning it the year Malhotra took over his defensive duties is quite laughable, shows how much the media watch the Canucks play), which makes Pettersson finishing in the top 10 in both points AND Selke votes all the more impressive imo. But don't mistake it, Selke votes are based purely on which forwards with high points also happen to be good defensively. After that, don't even get me started on how it's the most reputation-based trophy out there. 

Gotcha.   Doesn't mean Kesler wasn't a two way force because he for sure was.   Kesler almost willed the US to win in 2010 in the Olympics.  Guy was all hustle, and never given any skilled wingers to play with, not top tier ones anyways.    He was awesome.   And better than Maholtra.   If you're going to win a Selke with 40 points, you better be extraordinary, like Gainey and Guy Carb.   Do think they've lost touch a little on that to a degree.    Stone is the guy i've noticed most the past 7 years or so, and Barkov.    Despite that Bergeron just kept piling them up.

 

I think in 1994,  Federov won the Hart and Selke and was second in scoring (Gretzky's last Art Ross).   

Edited September 14, 2023 by IBatch

[HorvatToBaertschi]

Just now, IBatch said:

Gotcha.   Doesn't mean Kesler wasn't a two way force because he for sure was.   Kesler almost willed the US to win in 2010 in the Olympics.  Guy was all hustle, and never given any skilled wingers to play with, not top tier ones anyways.    He was awesome.   And better than Maholtra.   If your going to win a Selke with 40 points, you better be extraordinary.   Do think they've lost touch a little on that to a degree.    Stone is the guy i've noticed most the past 7 years or so, and Barkov.    Despite that Bergeron just kept piling them up. 

Kesler was a force to be reckoned with, in his prime. What a joy to watch on both ends of the puck. Defensively, I wouldn't say he was better than 2011 Malhotra,  but the fact we had both on our side was a massive strength. Pettersson being among those players, while being amongst the Hughes, Draisaitl, Kucherov, MacKinnons etc... on the offensive end, displays perfectly how special he is as a player. He is the most balanced elite forward in the game. 

[IBatch]

2 minutes ago, HorvatToBaertschi said:

Kesler was a force to be reckoned with, in his prime. What a joy to watch on both ends of the puck. Defensively, I wouldn't say he was better than 2011 Malhotra,  but the fact we had both on our side was a massive strength. Pettersson being among those players, while being amongst the Hughes, Draisaitl, Kucherov, MacKinnons etc... on the offensive end, displays perfectly how special he is as a player. He is the most balanced elite forward in the game. 

Barkov,  Stone and Eichel are pretty darned good too on both sides of the puck, Crosby is Crosby still.   Also see EP as a guy who will just get better and better.  Eventually he will get some hardware for it too. 

Edited September 14, 2023 by IBatch