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[Discussion] Roberto Luongo Trade Thread (Keep all discussion here)


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#2251 TmanVan

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 10:46 PM

As oldnews pointed out, Brodeur's 2 year deal is a bit of a speedbump in that regard. Both he and Hedberg were 35+ UFAs coming into the summer and they both got 2 year deals so the Devils will likely stand pat for now.


I failed to do some research, not sure why but I assumed Brodeur only re-uped for 1 year. That changes alot.... I guess the situation I laid out only works if Brodeur completely shats the bed and has a Roloson style slide in his play this year, or if we wait it out until next summer ( which I hope we don't of course)

Edited by TmanVan, 24 September 2012 - 10:48 PM.

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#2252 elvis15

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 11:01 PM

I failed to do some research, not sure why but I assumed Brodeur only re-uped for 1 year. That changes alot.... I guess the situation I laid out only works if Brodeur completely shats the bed and has a Roloson style slide in his play this year, or if we wait it out until next summer ( which I hope we don't of course)

Yup, considering they just signed both goalies to two more years and don't have high end goalie prospects, they're more likely to go after a young goalie if they do make a move at this point. I don't see Luongo in their plans unless for some reason he's still with us next year, or if he's looking to move from wherever he landed.
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#2253 CookieCrumbs

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 12:50 AM

Great debate in my opinion. I don't see why people are complaining about it. This is exactly what these boards are for.

Well written and well thought out posts on both ends. Wrong or right is really irrelevant.
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#2254 brewdog

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 01:02 AM

I never realized how little most teams are paying for their goaltending. I just went through Capgeek, team by team. Only a couple teams pay barely more than $8M. Most seem to be in the $4-6M range, but quite a few pay less than $4M and some are even below $3M. It's impressive how complete our roster is, considering how much we spend on our current goalies.
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#2255 RunningWild

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 01:53 AM

I never realized how little most teams are paying for their goaltending. I just went through Capgeek, team by team. Only a couple teams pay barely more than $8M. Most seem to be in the $4-6M range, but quite a few pay less than $4M and some are even below $3M. It's impressive how complete our roster is, considering how much we spend on our current goalies.


I've actually noticed a trend re: cap space and goaltending. More teams are allocating substancial cap space to goaltending than ever before. In 08/09, approx 4 teams committed $7+M to goaltending. Next season 12/13, 11 teams will commit $7+m to goaltending (On average, a team commits $5.4M to goaltending in 12/13).

There are approx 9 teams w/ $3M or less committed to goalies in 12/13. Not surprisingly, most those teams are the ones looking for upgrades (Chi, Fla, Ott, TBL, Tor). The others (LA, Phx, Wash) will have a lot more committed to goaltending in 13/14 as their goalies are UFAs/RFAs or have a big contract kickin' in (Quick).

The recent goalie signings have huge cap hits (Quick, Price, Rinne, Lehtonen), a trend that I think will continue. I think it speaks more to GM's knowing they're getting no where without good goaltending - and are willing to pay for it.
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#2256 Riviera82

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 04:44 AM

The trade was Luongo and Raymond for Alzner and 1st. To me a top pairing d-man still doesn't carry the value of an elite goalie. Van fans are too disenchanted with not winning it all to see our own goalie's skill. If he was on any other team we would be convetting Luongo. Alzner for Luongo isn't a good deal. Alzner and a first might be, but including Raymond doesn't make sense.


Elite goalie that no team really wants, not for any significant return anyways.
Van fans (like myself) are not just disenchanted with not winning it all, we see Luongo's skill in the regular season and then see that skill periodically disappear completely in the playoffs, 3 years running before 2012. If we as fans of the team see this happening, you can be certain that other teams GMs have seen it to.
Personally I always thought Luongo was overrated. I was excited when we traded for him because just about anybody is an upgrade over Cloutier and Auld. However if Luongo entering his prime couldn't drag Florida into the playoffs, how can anyone expect a mid-30s Luongo on the decline to do it for a crap team now.
We should be so lucky if a team offered a quality D-man straight up in the Luongo trade. Gillis and the fanboys are demanding way too much though it seems.
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#2257 riffraff

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 05:50 AM

I think the factors pretty much even out and in the end the Canucks make a reasonable hockey trade for Luongo - not an earth shattering blockbuster, and not table scraps - a reasonable hockey trade.

I also think you are overselling this 'perception outside Vancouver' thing. It doesn't really matter what some fans perceive - what matters is what Burke/Nonis, Tallon, Lowe, McPhee, etc think, and I doubt their perception is as shallow as stereotypes that fans hold.
But the perception that he is a guy who will never win a championship will only deepen if he winds up in Toronto haha!
On the other hand, he could very well get their sorry asses into the postseason finally. Gawd that would suck. Imagine being largely responsible for enabling Leafs playoff hockey. Would rather dump Luongo for table scraps. ;)


too funny and great for hnic, whoops, i mean the centre of the universe.
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CanucksSayEh, on 12 March 2013 - 10:12 PM, said:
When the playoffs come around, nobody is scared of getting in a fight, but every night, they get their mom to check under the bed for Raffi Torres.

#2258 King of the ES

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 08:07 AM

What I want to know is why has everyone stopped talking about New Jersey? I don't think anyone expects the whole season to be lost due to a lockout, and surely with Brodeur thinking long and hard about calling it quits this summer the chances of him coming back AGAIN next season seem highly unlikely.


They've got Brodeur and Hedberg signed until 2014. I doubt they'd have interest on this basis. Acquiring Luongo under the assumption that Brodeur will retire in a year (even though he just signed that extension) doesn't make a lot of sense.
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#2259 King of the ES

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 08:09 AM

That elite goalie you're talking about is 33, and will be 43 by the end of his contract. These are factors to consider when trading for anyone. Alzner was a captain for u20 Canada one year, a pretty big accomplishment that puts his name up there with names like Stevens and Neidermeyer. Alzner would be a fantastic return for Luongo alone but adding in a 1st in what is to be a very deep year and we're having our way with Washington. Not to mention we dump Raymond and his cap hit, lets face it he has no intrinsic value anyway. I stand by my proposal.


I agree with this. Alzner's not flashy, but he'll be around for a long, long time. I would consider the trade a success if we were able to get him for Luongo.
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#2260 TACIC

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 08:13 AM

We need to get a good return, and for that you need to add a few parts to the deal.

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#2261 oldnews

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 10:39 AM

That elite goalie you're talking about is 33, and will be 43 by the end of his contract. These are factors to consider when trading for anyone. Alzner was a captain for u20 Canada one year, a pretty big accomplishment that puts his name up there with names like Stevens and Neidermeyer. Alzner would be a fantastic return for Luongo alone but adding in a 1st in what is to be a very deep year and we're having our way with Washington. Not to mention we dump Raymond and his cap hit, lets face it he has no intrinsic value anyway. I stand by my proposal.


A little ironic that your post comes right after one where Brodeur talks about having no intent to retire, insisting that he is going to play two more years - and in fact says that he wouldn't re-sign there unless a deal included the second season - when he will be 42 years old. Lou/NJ agreed to it - and the difference there is that his cap hit will count against NJ regardless of whether he can play or not. Luongo's contract is not a 35+ deal - if he retires at some point (and the last 4 years are really cap intervention years) the cap hit disappears - if he wants to play when a team wants him to retire, his buyout is 900k/yr.

I too like Alzner. He is another lefty though - the Canucks already have Hammer, Edler, Garrison (although will likely play the right side), and Ballard (starts to look like the LW/RW imbalance) - acquiring him would have to mean moving Ballard or Edler (if re-signing him is going to be an obstacle) - the Canucks could try to land a RW or center in the subsequent deal. Alzner's also an RFA next year but if Luo and another blueline cap hit are moved, not a problem really (and his cap hit will be only 1.3 this season, which could come in handy). He's managed to be a +14 and +12 on a Caps team where that isn't the norm - and of course, what Canucks fan wouldn't appreciate the selling point that he managed to frustrate Lucic and get him somewhat off his game.


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Edited by oldnews, 25 September 2012 - 10:43 AM.

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#2262 Boudrias

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 11:59 AM

Add my + to a deal like that as well. The guy is really filling out and looks like a tank. Would almost do the deal straight across. Wish he was a righty.
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#2263 King of the ES

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 12:02 PM

I too like Alzner. He is another lefty though - the Canucks already have Hammer, Edler, Garrison (although will likely play the right side), and Ballard (starts to look like the LW/RW imbalance) - acquiring him would have to mean moving Ballard or Edler (if re-signing him is going to be an obstacle) - the Canucks could try to land a RW or center in the subsequent deal.


I don't know when "handedness" became a factor in the analysis of players, but I think it's just the latest thing that the insiders use to analyze largely for the sake of analysis. I don't see how it matters which way that a pretty strictly stay-at-home d-man like Alzner shoots. Same largely goes for forwards, where it might be slightly more important to match up lines with handedness, but probably not much.
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#2264 oldnews

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 01:08 PM

I don't know when "handedness" became a factor in the analysis of players, but I think it's just the latest thing that the insiders use to analyze largely for the sake of analysis. I don't see how it matters which way that a pretty strictly stay-at-home d-man like Alzner shoots. Same largely goes for forwards, where it might be slightly more important to match up lines with handedness, but probably not much.


It matters KIng - when you are building a team and making trades, it matters where a player would fit. The fact that Alzner is a shut down guy effects who you would pair him with right. And which side he plays or whether he is right or left handed matters moreso imo with blueliners than forwards. Having a guy who isn't used to playing on his off side has some pretty obvious implications, particularly when holding the opposition blue line or clearing the puck from their own corners...Being on your strong side versus on the backhand matters. Some players are far more adept at switching sides than others.

Edited by oldnews, 25 September 2012 - 01:34 PM.

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#2265 smurf47

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 04:10 PM

I don't know when "handedness" became a factor in the analysis of players, but I think it's just the latest thing that the insiders use to analyze largely for the sake of analysis. I don't see how it matters which way that a pretty strictly stay-at-home d-man like Alzner shoots. Same largely goes for forwards, where it might be slightly more important to match up lines with handedness, but probably not much.

Once again you start typing and show how little you actually know about the science of hockey. Again..its...YOU THINK..... but really have no idea. Quit while yur ahead, before all of Canuckville learn how ignorant you aree of the sport you so readily offer opinions on....Give us a break !!
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#2266 WiDeN

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 05:33 PM

I don't know when "handedness" became a factor in the analysis of players, but I think it's just the latest thing that the insiders use to analyze largely for the sake of analysis. I don't see how it matters which way that a pretty strictly stay-at-home d-man like Alzner shoots. Same largely goes for forwards, where it might be slightly more important to match up lines with handedness, but probably not much.

You never played hockey did you?
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#2267 Pears

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 05:36 PM

I don't know when "handedness" became a factor in the analysis of players, but I think it's just the latest thing that the insiders use to analyze largely for the sake of analysis. I don't see how it matters which way that a pretty strictly stay-at-home d-man like Alzner shoots. Same largely goes for forwards, where it might be slightly more important to match up lines with handedness, but probably not much.

As a matter of fact, handedness actually does matter. A lot.
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#2268 riffraff

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 06:45 PM

You never played hockey did you?


I'd actually like to see this as a poll question in some capacity in Canucks talk.
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CanucksSayEh, on 12 March 2013 - 10:12 PM, said:
When the playoffs come around, nobody is scared of getting in a fight, but every night, they get their mom to check under the bed for Raffi Torres.

#2269 WiDeN

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 07:28 PM

I'd actually like to see this as a poll question in some capacity in Canucks talk.

I never played organized hockey, but I played a lot of shinny.

But really, if a D is shooting from the inside of the ice vs. the outside that matters. If the defender is backing up and has his stick to the boards vs. the slot, that's a big deal.

I am most surprised that King went on to mention wingers. Come on, how can handedness not matter? Some guys play left side, some play right, and some play both. If a player is on the half boards, and shooting from the short side, then it is a MUCH easier stop for a goalie in proper position than if a player is shooting from the inside of the ice with a much better angle. Why has AV mentioned countless times that he likes a right handed shot with the twins? I'm sure if he had to choose between Hansen (shoots right) and Rick Nash (shoots left), then he wouldn't pick handedness over skill, but given the option he will always pair guys up so that they are in better position to receive a pass and take a shot.
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#2270 riffraff

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 09:23 PM

I never played organized hockey, but I played a lot of shinny.

But really, if a D is shooting from the inside of the ice vs. the outside that matters. If the defender is backing up and has his stick to the boards vs. the slot, that's a big deal.

I am most surprised that King went on to mention wingers. Come on, how can handedness not matter? Some guys play left side, some play right, and some play both. If a player is on the half boards, and shooting from the short side, then it is a MUCH easier stop for a goalie in proper position than if a player is shooting from the inside of the ice with a much better angle. Why has AV mentioned countless times that he likes a right handed shot with the twins? I'm sure if he had to choose between Hansen (shoots right) and Rick Nash (shoots left), then he wouldn't pick handedness over skill, but given the option he will always pair guys up so that they are in better position to receive a pass and take a shot.


full agreement...always easier to give and receive a pass of the forehand but thats just one of many benefits of handedness on a roster/pairing.

growing up i used to play c or rw though i shot left. i enjoyed the shot from the rwing off a rush better with a left shot either carrying it in and shooting or receiving a pass from the c for a shot.

now i play a bit of d and prefer being on my strong side and paring with a rhanded d on the rside....better for passing out of the dzone and playing catch across the blue line in the ozone.

playing shinny....well a lot of the time that involves playing one hand on the stick and the other on the pilsner.
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CanucksSayEh, on 12 March 2013 - 10:12 PM, said:
When the playoffs come around, nobody is scared of getting in a fight, but every night, they get their mom to check under the bed for Raffi Torres.

#2271 King of the ES

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Posted 26 September 2012 - 03:27 AM

You never played hockey did you?


Right. I played "AAA" and even a few games as a call-up in the BCJHL. I played plenty of hockey. Handedness is largely irrelevant. I don't want to get too off-topic here, but HANDEDNESS is different than SIDE. If you all thought that I meant the SIDE (left D, right D, for example) is irrelevant, I didn't. I meant whether a person shoots left or right. Not that important.

Edited by King of the ES, 26 September 2012 - 03:27 AM.

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#2272 Boudrias

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Posted 26 September 2012 - 08:37 AM

Right. I played "AAA" and even a few games as a call-up in the BCJHL. I played plenty of hockey. Handedness is largely irrelevant. I don't want to get too off-topic here, but HANDEDNESS is different than SIDE. If you all thought that I meant the SIDE (left D, right D, for example) is irrelevant, I didn't. I meant whether a person shoots left or right. Not that important.

Makes a dif on whether receiving the puck on the forehand or backhand. Makes a dif in what teammates you are playing with. Makes a dif on your angles when shooting on the tender. At an NHL pace it can make a dif.
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#2273 RUPERTKBD

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Posted 26 September 2012 - 10:15 AM

Right. I played "AAA" and even a few games as a call-up in the BCJHL. I played plenty of hockey. Handedness is largely irrelevant. I don't want to get too off-topic here, but HANDEDNESS is different than SIDE. If you all thought that I meant the SIDE (left D, right D, for example) is irrelevant, I didn't. I meant whether a person shoots left or right. Not that important.



I too, played a bit of Junior, (when I played rep hockey, the AAA designation did not exist) and I'm going to disagree with that.

It makes a difference which way you shoot, because some players are better than others at being able to adapt to playing their "off" side.

Case in point: Keith Ballard. There are many Ballard fans on this board who are fond of complaining that he doesn't get enough ice time. However, as many of us have pointed out, Ballard fared very poorly when playing on the right side. With Hammer and Edler ahead of him on the left, he's pretty much stuck on the 3rd pairing.

However, if he were able to handle playing his off side, he may have had a better shot of supplanting Bieksa or Salo.

You never know how a defenseman is going to react to playing his unnatural side, which is why it's prudent to make an effort to balance out your right and left shooters.
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Orland Kurtenbach and Dennis Kearns had just been torched 8-1 by the Habs, but they still took time to come out to meet us, some fellow BC boys who were playing hockey in Montreal. THAT"S what being a Canuck is!

#2274 smurf47

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Posted 26 September 2012 - 11:02 AM

Right. I played "AAA" and even a few games as a call-up in the BCJHL. I played plenty of hockey. Handedness is largely irrelevant. I don't want to get too off-topic here, but HANDEDNESS is different than SIDE. If you all thought that I meant the SIDE (left D, right D, for example) is irrelevant, I didn't. I meant whether a person shoots left or right. Not that important.

WOW....AAA MINOR hockey. a few games in tier II junior...talk about qualifications !! You should stick to opinions that mirror your level of competence...minor hockey...because you continue to make yourself look stupid. All the negative feedback you get should be sinking in by now, but somehow , your ego takes over. Listen to the people that have more hockey knowledge and quit spewing drivel and unbased , off the mark opinions. Go play bingo !!
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#2275 King of the ES

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Posted 26 September 2012 - 11:13 AM

WOW....AAA MINOR hockey. a few games in tier II junior...talk about qualifications !! You should stick to opinions that mirror your level of competence...minor hockey...


Oh, OK, so have you decided on what you're going to do if the lockout remains in tact and you're not able to play for your NHL team this year?
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#2276 Special Ed

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Posted 26 September 2012 - 11:15 AM

WOW....AAA MINOR hockey. a few games in tier II junior...talk about qualifications !! You should stick to opinions that mirror your level of competence...minor hockey...because you continue to make yourself look stupid. All the negative feedback you get should be sinking in by now, but somehow , your ego takes over. Listen to the people that have more hockey knowledge and quit spewing drivel and unbased , off the mark opinions. Go play bingo !!


Like your elite hockey knowledge? Which guaranteed Luongos departure after the playoffs how long ago? Oh don't make me dredge up your old posts... And Luongos is still a Canuck. Just like I said was still a real possibility.
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If you like looking at statistics to determine who's better, you're just a casual fan.

2.41 season GAA isn't very impressive. Let's not get into playoffs and his SV%.

Cory Schneider is the next Patrick Roy.


#2277 elvis15

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Posted 26 September 2012 - 11:21 AM

Makes a dif on whether receiving the puck on the forehand or backhand. Makes a dif in what teammates you are playing with. Makes a dif on your angles when shooting on the tender. At an NHL pace it can make a dif.

I agree it makes a difference.

Even if you ignore that, the obvious implications of saying you wish a defenceman like Alzner was right handed means positionally as well as which side you shoot on. That was what I understood from the post that mentioned it.

Put them both together and it only makes his comments look worse.
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#2278 Noheart

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Posted 26 September 2012 - 11:49 AM

Right. I played "AAA" and even a few games as a call-up in the BCJHL. I played plenty of hockey. Handedness is largely irrelevant. I don't want to get too off-topic here, but HANDEDNESS is different than SIDE. If you all thought that I meant the SIDE (left D, right D, for example) is irrelevant, I didn't. I meant whether a person shoots left or right. Not that important.


Ok so I played junor hockey in sask and the way it works in the flatland must be completely different.

The last AAA hockey team you can play on is in midget

Then junior hockey goes
Major Jr, (kelowna rockets)
Junior A (Vernon Vipers)
Junior B ( Richmond sockeyes)

So if you are called up from midget, You were a 15yr old playing Jr.

Looks like Mr modest was a pretty good hockey player. I have never personally seen this call up when I played, especially from midget AAA to Junior A. I played with a guy that got called up to his major jr team for practice when our season was done and they kept playing into the playoffs but that guy has also played in the NHL for quite some time now.

Sorry guys, he does have more hockey knowledge then all of us put together, he trully is a King.

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BEASTLY!!!

#2279 King of the ES

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Posted 26 September 2012 - 12:01 PM

Ok so I played junor hockey in sask and the way it works in the flatland must be completely different.

The last AAA hockey team you can play on is in midget

Then junior hockey goes
Major Jr, (kelowna rockets)
Junior A (Vernon Vipers)
Junior B ( Richmond sockeyes)

So if you are called up from midget, You were a 15yr old playing Jr.

Looks like Mr modest was a pretty good hockey player. I have never personally seen this call up when I played, especially from midget AAA to Junior A. I played with a guy that got called up to his major jr team for practice when our season was done and they kept playing into the playoffs but that guy has also played in the NHL for quite some time now.

Sorry guys, he does have more hockey knowledge then all of us put together, he trully is a King.


Whatever. It was Junior B, yes. Delta Ice Hawks. It was 2 or 3 different games as an emergency call-up. And I'm 29 years old now, so it was a long time ago. Age 15 sounds about right, if not a little on the young side.

Anyway, this is all irrelevant - someone brought up the notion that "I've obviously never played hockey before", which is funny, because he admittedly never has. I played hockey from Tyke - Midget, and always at the highest MINOR level that was possible. I never said that I was NHL material or anything of the sort, just that I played a lot, a lot of hockey.

Edited by King of the ES, 26 September 2012 - 12:03 PM.

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#2280 WeatherWise

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Posted 26 September 2012 - 12:09 PM

Like others have discussed, handedness can make a huge difference for defenseman. The difference is the reach. The defenseman's handedness will often complement which side of the ice he plays. If, for example, he plays the right side, being a left-handed shooter means his right hand will be at the knob of the stick; consequently, he will be using his right hand to reach for pucks. Such a scenario becomes challenging when facing opposing players, as the defenseman in question will lose quite a bit of reach towards the middle of the ice. A right-handed defenseman playing the right side will be able to reach further towards the inside, though he loses the ability to one-time pucks from across.

The attacking left winger would be more likely to attack from the outside if left-handed and more likely to cut inside if right-handed. Depending on the handedness of the defender, that winger could have an easier time beating the defenseman if the defenseman's handedness does not match the attacker's handedness. For example, a left-handed defenseman playing the right side would struggle much more against a right-handed attacker than a right-handed, right-sided defenseman defending against a left-handed attacker if both forwards in question tried beating their respective defensemen to the inside. With so many advantages and disadvantages depending on the attacker's handedness and the defender's handedness, some defensemen can not adapt as well as others. Those who can skate better, who are better positionally, have more size, or who have longer sticks can try to compensate for being wrong-handed against a forward. There is no question there is an advantage in some scenarios depending on the defender's handedness, however.

Offensive defensemen will often want to be able to one-time, thus they lose some reach towards in the inside. Defensive defensemen will want to have more reach towards the inside, thus will have the same handedness as the side they are playing. A smart defenseman will use the boards to compensate for their lack of reach to the outside, and will use their bodies and be physical to squeeze out the attacker. Open ice hits are much more difficult, and so having a longer reach towards the inside is perhaps more favorable.

Edited by WeatherWise, 26 September 2012 - 12:21 PM.

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