Maketherightmove Posted July 24, 2019 Share Posted July 24, 2019 4 hours ago, Provost said: No, that is the opposite of the way it works. Longer equals higher AAV for young players. You are buying UFA years. That is literally the exact issue with Marner. They are willing to pay him $10 million per year but want a full 8 years... he wants that at least and a shorter deal. For a 4 year deal Brock won't take a cent less than what Meier got. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Me_ Posted July 25, 2019 Share Posted July 25, 2019 7 hours ago, Maketherightmove said: For a 4 year deal Brock won't take a cent less than what Meier got. You figured her the dude is on a 4yr contract and he’s 22 so it has to be $6.000MIL/yr? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigTramFan Posted July 25, 2019 Share Posted July 25, 2019 19 hours ago, WeneedLumme said: Yeah, $4.5M for the productivity he has already demonstrated is just silly. Are there any players who come close to his goal production who have recently signed for those kind of numbers? I suspect that if there were, someone would have pointed them out already. Kevin Labanc (same points total as Boeser last season, 56pts) signed a $1m deal...makes $4.5m seem reasonable!!! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WeneedLumme Posted July 25, 2019 Share Posted July 25, 2019 5 hours ago, BigTramFan said: Kevin Labanc (same points total as Boeser last season, 56pts) signed a $1m deal...makes $4.5m seem reasonable!!! I did say goal production. Goals are much more difficult to score and more valuable than points. Labanc's career goal production in 214 games is just a little more than Brock's goal production in his injury shortened 62 game rookie season. Yes, if you ignore the number of games played, Labanc has the same total points as Brock both last season and in their careers. Brock of course scored those points in far fewer games. Their productivity is not comparable in points per game, and not even in the same ballpark in goals per game. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alflives Posted July 25, 2019 Share Posted July 25, 2019 3 minutes ago, WeneedLumme said: I did say goal production. Goals are much more difficult to score and more valuable than points. Labanc's career goal production in 214 games is just a little more than Brock's goal production in his injury shortened 62 game rookie season. Yes, if you ignore the number of games played, Labanc has the same total points as Brock both last season and in their careers. Brock of course scored those points in far fewer games. Their productivity is not comparable in points per game, and not even in the same ballpark in goals per game. And the Leblanc contract is clearly cap circumvention. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WeneedLumme Posted July 25, 2019 Share Posted July 25, 2019 2 minutes ago, Alflives said: And the Leblanc contract is clearly cap circumvention. I'm not sure about cap circumvention (I believe it is a one year contract) but it certainly is a very team-friendly deal. At least part of the reason that contract is so cheap is that Labanc's last season's productivity is so much above the rest of his career that he needs to show that it was not just a fluke before he can get a real contract. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alflives Posted July 25, 2019 Share Posted July 25, 2019 12 minutes ago, WeneedLumme said: I'm not sure about cap circumvention (I believe it is a one year contract) but it certainly is a very team-friendly deal. At least part of the reason that contract is so cheap is that Labanc's last season's productivity is so much above the rest of his career that he needs to show that it was not just a fluke before he can get a real contract. Lebanc is clearly worth a lot more that 1x1. I wonder if he used an agent? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mll Posted July 25, 2019 Share Posted July 25, 2019 (edited) 22 minutes ago, Alflives said: Lebanc is clearly worth a lot more that 1x1. I wonder if he used an agent? Michael Curran of Orr Group - the same agent as Charlie McAvoy. The team will have more cap space next summer. They'll make up for it. “We appreciate ‘Banker’ understanding and stepping up,” said GM Doug Wilson. “We think it’s an important contract for us, but also a great opportunity for him.” Edited July 25, 2019 by mll Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldnews Posted July 25, 2019 Share Posted July 25, 2019 1 hour ago, mll said: Michael Curran of Orr Group - the same agent as Charlie McAvoy. The team will have more cap space next summer. They'll make up for it. “We appreciate ‘Banker’ understanding and stepping up,” said GM Doug Wilson. “We think it’s an important contract for us, but also a great opportunity for him.” Cap circumvention that is 'against the spirit of the CBA" = essentially an admission on Wilson's part - in effect no different than a Luongo backdive. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dontaylorforprez Posted July 25, 2019 Share Posted July 25, 2019 I highly doubt we’re signing Boes for anything less than 6shmill even at 4yrs.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WHL rocks Posted July 26, 2019 Share Posted July 26, 2019 (edited) On 7/24/2019 at 3:19 PM, Maketherightmove said: For a 4 year deal Brock won't take a cent less than what Meier got. Boeser is not close to the player Meier is. If he wants same money JB should let him sit. Boeser has no board game. No back check he's a shooter. Meier is a completely different player. He's a beast. Edited July 26, 2019 by WHL rocks 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HorvatToBaertschi Posted July 26, 2019 Share Posted July 26, 2019 5 hours ago, WHL rocks said: Boeser is not close to the player Meier is. If he wants same money JB should let him sit. Boeser has no board game. No back check he's a shooter. Meier is a completely different player. He's a beast. Insane. Boeser worked on this all year and was clearly fighting hard on the forecheck, creating many turnovers and putting the body on the defensemen by the end of the season. Boeser's also been a decent defensive player. Meier on a SC contending team surrounded by great playmakers, put up in his 3rd season a worse GPG pace than Boeser in his first year on one of the worst offensive teams in the last decade. Boeser is a talent and is quickly (and very surprisingly) being overshadowed by EP and Hughes already. We shouldn't forget how lucky we really are, and a 4x6 contract would be low compared to what many other teams would have offer sheeted us, had they had the chance to do so (I'm talking 7.5 +) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EdgarM Posted July 26, 2019 Share Posted July 26, 2019 1 hour ago, HorvatToBaertschi said: Insane. Boeser worked on this all year and was clearly fighting hard on the forecheck, creating many turnovers and putting the body on the defensemen by the end of the season. Boeser's also been a decent defensive player. Meier on a SC contending team surrounded by great playmakers, put up in his 3rd season a worse GPG pace than Boeser in his first year on one of the worst offensive teams in the last decade. Boeser is a talent and is quickly (and very surprisingly) being overshadowed by EP and Hughes already. We shouldn't forget how lucky we really are, and a 4x6 contract would be low compared to what many other teams would have offer sheeted us, had they had the chance to do so (I'm talking 7.5 +) I think you are overrating Boes a little bit. Yes he is working on his defense but he is not there yet and he is a minus player. Meier? he is a plus player, plus he is a PROVEN playoff performer. Boes definitely shows potential but there are a lot of questions about his game that need to be answered. Is he going to be another injury prone player? Will his defensive game improve? Will his skating improve? No doubt he has offensive prowess but he needs to be more of a complete player to command the big bucks. The numbers you are quoting are pure speculation and your opinion on what other teams would pay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HorvatToBaertschi Posted July 26, 2019 Share Posted July 26, 2019 (edited) 2 minutes ago, EdgarM said: I think you are overrating Boes a little bit. Yes he is working on his defense but he is not there yet and he is a minus player. Meier? he is a plus player, plus he is a PROVEN playoff performer. Boes definitely shows potential but there are a lot of questions about his game that need to be answered. Is he going to be another injury prone player? Will his defensive game improve? Will his skating improve? No doubt he has offensive prowess but he needs to be more of a complete player to command the big bucks. The numbers you are quoting are pure speculation and your opinion on what other teams would pay. Are you really using +/- as a determining stat when one player has played on a SC contender his whole 3 year career and the other on a basement team? Really?. PS. 1 good playoff performance doesn't mean anything about future playoffs. Remember Rookie Cam Ward? 18 yo Sam Bennett? The Monster Ferland? Edited July 26, 2019 by HorvatToBaertschi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vannuck59 Posted July 26, 2019 Share Posted July 26, 2019 The Problem with Boeser is he bulked up too much which effected his skating and shot. LEAN mass is better for agility and coordination and speed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EdgarM Posted July 26, 2019 Share Posted July 26, 2019 20 minutes ago, HorvatToBaertschi said: Are you really using +/- as a determining stat when one player has played on a SC contender his whole 3 year career and the other on a basement team? Really?. PS. 1 good playoff performance doesn't mean anything about future playoffs. Remember Rookie Cam Ward? 18 yo Sam Bennett? The Monster Ferland? Oh my bad, using stats to describe a hockey player what was I thinking? I am pretty sure that's what the owners look at when determining how much they are going to pay their players as well as comparisons to other players in the league. A player who has proven he can produce in 3 seasons of playoffs is definitely more valuable then a player who has never played 1 playoff game. A player who has played 3 NHL seasons and has never been a minus player probably is a little better defensively then a player who has a couple of years being a minus player. Meier, by the way, has been in the playoffs for 3 seasons. The first year, he was a rookie, and didn't produce in 5 games. The next 2 seasons he contributed 20 points in 30 games. I would say that means something. Like I said, you are overrating Boes at this point and assessing a player who has not fully developed yet. I guess you have a pretty good crystal ball in your possession. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HKSR Posted July 26, 2019 Share Posted July 26, 2019 On 7/25/2019 at 8:16 AM, mll said: Michael Curran of Orr Group - the same agent as Charlie McAvoy. The team will have more cap space next summer. They'll make up for it. “We appreciate ‘Banker’ understanding and stepping up,” said GM Doug Wilson. “We think it’s an important contract for us, but also a great opportunity for him.” What a terrible nickname for a guy that just signed way under value. Would make more sense if it was "Bunker". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HorvatToBaertschi Posted July 26, 2019 Share Posted July 26, 2019 (edited) 13 minutes ago, EdgarM said: Oh my bad, using stats to describe a hockey player what was I thinking? I am pretty sure that's what the owners look at when determining how much they are going to pay their players as well as comparisons to other players in the league. A player who has proven he can produce in 3 seasons of playoffs is definitely more valuable then a player who has never played 1 playoff game. A player who has played 3 NHL seasons and has never been a minus player probably is a little better defensively then a player who has a couple of years being a minus player. Meier, by the way, has been in the playoffs for 3 seasons. The first year, he was a rookie, and didn't produce in 5 games. The next 2 seasons he contributed 20 points in 30 games. I would say that means something. Like I said, you are overrating Boes at this point and assessing a player who has not fully developed yet. I guess you have a pretty good crystal ball in your possession. If you think +/- has any value to GMs or players, and that it is used as a tool for determining salary.... you are crazy. +/- is the worst stat in the NHL. Bo was -30 at one point, is he trash? Is he not an excellent 2 way Center? Timo Meier plays with Logan Couture and Kevin Labanc, when he doesn't, he has Thorton, Pavelski (not anymore), Kane as options, with elite dmen all around him that put up significant numbers; Karlsson and Burns aka 2 Norris trophy winners. I wouldn't put any value on any of his stats because the context is too important. Meier was put in a position to succeed as soon as he entered the league. Boeser was literally handed a flaming pile of dog*#@%. He singlehandedly turned our PP into top 10 as a rookie by providing a second option to the sedins. Boeser was at a 38 goal pace as a rookie on one of the worst offensive teams in the last decade, with no dmen capable of creating any kind of lanes or options with their first passes. All we have had for the last 7 years has been Edler. That's it. Canucks fans are forgetting what we have. Before Pettersson, we had this winger that shocked the league, was a Calder favorite and was named the 19th best winger in the NHL to start last season by Sportsnet. Goldfish memories I swear. 6 x 4 would be a STEAL Edited July 26, 2019 by HorvatToBaertschi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mll Posted July 26, 2019 Share Posted July 26, 2019 (edited) 2 hours ago, HorvatToBaertschi said: Insane. Boeser worked on this all year and was clearly fighting hard on the forecheck, creating many turnovers and putting the body on the defensemen by the end of the season. Boeser's also been a decent defensive player. Meier on a SC contending team surrounded by great playmakers, put up in his 3rd season a worse GPG pace than Boeser in his first year on one of the worst offensive teams in the last decade. Boeser is a talent and is quickly (and very surprisingly) being overshadowed by EP and Hughes already. We shouldn't forget how lucky we really are, and a 4x6 contract would be low compared to what many other teams would have offer sheeted us, had they had the chance to do so (I'm talking 7.5 +) DeBoer says you can't measure Meier's impact on the scoresheet alone. Meier, unlike Boeser, started in the bottom-6 in a checking role with no PP time and had to earn his way up the lineup. Boeser was always in the top-6 and has been getting every offensive opportunity. Meier is not even on the 1st power play unit - he plays 1min45 less than Boeser on the PP. With Pavelski gone he should be getting more opportunities. Meier needed time to adjust while Boeser stepped in seamlessly. Meier also had a slow start in the Q. Wilson said they drafted him because he has that hunger to always improve all aspects of his game - he was already a tireless worker. The Sharks think he is just getting started - he is developing into a true power-forward. So many comments throughout media with numbers backing it up that his contract is a steal. They are very different goal scorers. Meier gets to the net - he's top-10 in the league in shots from the inner slot. Boeser shoots more from the outside. He's one of only 3 Canucks (min 20 games) who clearly outperformed their expected goals per 60 in all situations last season under the Corsica model. Meier is break-even. He's not as gifted a goal scorer as Boeser but he gets far more scoring opportunities in prime scoring areas that he exceeded Boeser's goal production when adjusted for ice time (goals per 60 of 1.36 for Meier vs 1.18 per 60 for Boeser). Edited July 26, 2019 by mll Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WHL rocks Posted July 27, 2019 Share Posted July 27, 2019 I can't believe someone is arguing Boeser is equal to or better than Meier at this point of their careers. No bias there right... 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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