[Report] Maple Leafs fire Mike Babcock, name Sheldon Keefe as new head coach

[Toews]

Would not be surprised if the best coaches in the world had a bit of douchebag in them to try to motivate players. Not all players respond to a kind word and a pat on the back. Mike Keenan especially used to go way over the edge in the his attempts to bring the best out of his players. He isn't the only one either, as people have mentioned Bowman had a reputation as well. People don't want to believe that some of the most successful old school coaches were probably at any given moment snakes, liars etc. They may have actively contributed in damaging the psyche of the players who they were charged with but they won and winning excuses just about everything in sports. 

This would be considered abuse today but to me it is an iconic moment. 

 

Who knows though maybe Carcillo is right and the culture of hockey is too negative and fear based. Regardless I think people should cool it a little on talk of "abuse" (seen it on social media) and such. What is and was considered acceptable may not be the case today and finding that line is not easy for coaches especially when they have the pressure of coaching in the biggest hockey market and being paid a massive paycheque.

Edited November 25, 2019 by Toews

[rekker]

Quite the fallout over this for Babcock. Part of me dislikes seeing a guy kicked while down. Kind of gutless if you ask me. Thing is, this is probably the tip of the iceberg and the players are looking for some payback. Looks as though Babcock has not changed with the times and this will cost him on length of his next contract. This breakup is not going well and his reputation is taking a beating. What bugs me as well is the media throwing Babs under the bus are the same media that touted him the "best coach in the world" only a few years ago. Media has turned into dumpster entertainment as far as I'm concerned with litte attention paid to facts and too much attention paid to ratings grabbing stories. 

Edited November 25, 2019 by rekker

[bishopshodan]

Yeah, he controlled a lot of peoples lives/careers.

 

Lots calling him a bad guy. Jeff O'neill really referencing a lot of examples of Babcock being awful.

 

Dunno, maybe this is a long time coming. 

 

[shiznak]

11 hours ago, Down by the River said:

#1 Its not just a difference of opinion. One opinion is objectively less accurate than the other. You are suggesting that getting someone to write down a list of how they rank their peers and then showing that list to peers so that they know who exists at the bottom of the list is something that men should do or that this is an old school way of thinking. I don't know what type of old-school coach would think that playing teammates off of one another is a good idea. This is so passive aggressive,. 

 

#2 Girls engage in more relational aggression than boys. Saying that girls do something doesn't imply that boys don't do that thing. 

 

#3 Winning doesn't make you good/moral. Nor does being good/moral in the past guarantee you will continue to be that way in the future.

 

#4 The difference between Babcock and Bowman isn't that players hate Babcock and like Bowman. The difference is a matter of respect. 

Who doesn’t have respect for Mike Babcock beside a fringe journeymen defensemen, who is desperately trying to get attention?

 

Kadri on Babcock firing:

Quote

“We got a mutual respect for one another. Obviously, at times, you get into it a little bit but that’s part of being a man and talking about your problems,” Kadri said.

 

Bergeron on Babs:

Quote

“Obviously a great coach that I have lots of respect for. I think he’s done it all in his career as a coach,” said Bergeron. “Like I’ve said, I’ve learned from all my coaches and I’ve learned from him personally. I know he’ll be back on his feet pretty quickly. I think he’s a very good coach. Obviously I don’t know all the circumstances so I’m not going to comment on that. But personally, I only have good things to say about him.”

Sidney Crosby have said numerous times  in interviews that Babcock is one of the best coaches he ever played for. 

[riffraff]

On 11/25/2019 at 7:12 PM, bishopshodan said:

Yeah, he controlled a lot of peoples lives/careers.

 

Lots calling him a bad guy. Jeff O'neill really referencing a lot of examples of Babcock being awful.

 

Dunno, maybe this is a long time coming. 

 

Hard to tell....lots of players are backing him - respected players.  Not everyone is going to get along in this world and mistakes are going to be made.  Not sure why things have to escalate so much and so quickly.  Not sure if this is a good thing or not.  I suppose time will tell.

Edited November 27, 2019 by riffraff

[JayDangles]

The hard part for me is when it comes to justice, the punishment should match the crime. What Babcock said/did to Marner, or how he treated people in the past, in no way warrants a social media campaign to destroy the mans legacy and character.

 

So he wasn't a good guy... ok, well I know a lot of bad guys, yet I don't jump on FB, twitter etc and attack them.. i move on about my day.

 

Seriously, this has gone way too far IMHO

 

[J-Dizzle]

On 11/27/2019 at 2:05 PM, JayDangles said:

The hard part for me is when it comes to justice, the punishment should match the crime. What Babcock said/did to Marner, or how he treated people in the past, in no way warrants a social media campaign to destroy the mans legacy and character.

 

So he wasn't a good guy... ok, well I know a lot of bad guys, yet I don't jump on FB, twitter etc and attack them.. i move on about my day.

 

Seriously, this has gone way too far IMHO

 

I gave you a plus for the Dall.... but I agree with what you're saying too 

[Nancouver]

Looks like Johan Franzen has come out now saying babcock is “ the worst person he’s ever met”. Supposedly babcock bullied him a lot which was also after franzen suffered multiple concussions. He ended up having a breakdown once on the bench during a game and again later in the dressing rm. Franzen now deals with ptsd from the whole ordeal and is only now just starting to feel normal again. If someone else can post the link to the full story that would be awesome.

 

also peters was an assistant coach with the wings at the time.... birds of a feather.

Edited December 3, 2019 by Nancouver

[canuck73_3]

On 11/26/2019 at 1:53 AM, shiznak said:

Who doesn’t have respect for Mike Babcock beside a fringe journeymen defensemen, who is desperately trying to get attention?

 

Kadri on Babcock firing:

Bergeron on Babs:

Sidney Crosby have said numerous times  in interviews that Babcock is one of the best coaches he ever played for. 

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/chelios-babcocks-treatment-veteran-players-coming-back-haunt/sn-amp/

[nuckin_futz]

3 hours ago, Nancouver said:

Looks like Johan Franzen has come out now saying babcock is “ the worst person he’s ever met”. Supposedly babcock bullied him a lot which was also after franzen suffered multiple concussions. He ended up having a breakdown once on the bench during a game and again later in the dressing rm. Franzen now deals with ptsd from the whole ordeal and is only now just starting to feel normal again. If someone else can post the link to the full story that would be awesome.

 

also peters was an assistant coach with the wings at the time.... birds of a feather.

 

Johan Franzen: Mike Babcock is 'the worst person I have ever met'

Matt Teague

4h ago

Gregory Shamus / Getty Images Sport / Getty

 

Former Detroit Red Wings forward Johan Franzen told Swedish publication Expressen on Monday that ex-Toronto Maple Leafs head coach Mike Babcock is "the worst person I have ever met," as translated by the outlet.

 

On a recent episode of the Spittin Chiclets podcast, Franzen's former teammate Chris Chelios said Babcock "verbally assaulted" Franzen during the 2012 playoffs while serving as bench boss in Detroit, causing him to have a "nervous breakdown."

 

"I get the shivers when I think about it," Franzen said. "That incident occurred against Nashville in the playoffs. It was coarse, nasty, and shocking. But that was just one out of a hundred things he did. The tip of the iceberg.

 

"He would lay into a couple of the other players. The nice team players, the guys who don't say very much. When they left the team he went on to focus on me. It was verbal attacks, he said horrible things."

 

Franzen admitted that as a coach, Babcock was "meticulous and well prepared" but said "he's a terrible person, the worst I've ever met. He's a bully who was attacking people."

 

The Swedish winger claims Babcocks' tirades began one year prior to the event in Nashville and got so bad he struggled to get out of bed.

"From 2011 on, I was terrified of being at the rink," Franzen said. "That’s when he got on me the first time. I just focused on getting out of bed every morning from that moment. Last year I could sleep naturally for the first time since then.

 

"It was just his attacks, playing in my head. Each and every day."

 

Babcock was fired by the Maple Leafs on Nov. 20. Just days after his removal, it was revealed that in 2016, the former bench boss made then-rookie forward Mitch Marner rank his teammates by work ethic before showing the list to the players on it.

 

https://www.thescore.com/nhl/news/1896006

[rekker]

Holy smokes the stories just keep coming. Babs may never work in the NHL again. 

[CanucksJay]

It's a tough situation. Some of the greatest players support Babs while some good players don't. It also shows the generational difference in work styles. The workplace and how we treat employees is changing and it seems that the NHL is as well. 

Not to sound insensitive but PTSD from a yelling coach seems very millennial like. Who knows anymore. In all my days managing people at the office, I do have to say, I hated managing millennials the most. It was mentally draining lol. 

[Monty]

48 minutes ago, CanucksJay said:

It's a tough situation. Some of the greatest players support Babs while some good players don't. It also shows the generational difference in work styles. The workplace and how we treat employees is changing and it seems that the NHL is as well. 

Not to sound insensitive but PTSD from a yelling coach seems very millennial like. Who knows anymore. In all my days managing people at the office, I do have to say, I hated managing millennials the most. It was mentally draining lol. 

Yeah, I'm not too sure how to "feel" about this whole thing with Babcock. Bill Peters? Different story. But this, I just don't know.

 

I've had 3 bosses in my life who were absolutely brutal when it came to tearing me down. The last time I had one like that (2015), was particularly nasty. At times he got personal, always publicly in meetings (did that to majority of us), and I did have many moments of "This is demeaning and uncalled for." I "lasted" 10 months with the company and ended up finding something a lot better. Now, I also understand that this was a startup business and he was the owner, so he was under an enormous amount of stress. So the lack of success in the company seeped over to the staff. I also understood that everything he was piling onto us negatively for was 100% beyond our control, for the most part. I couldn't change things, nobody could. I also came into the company 2 years after it founded, and the "Foundation for Failure" was set long before I joined (the company folded 4 months after I left). 

 

That said, I also credit my boss for one of the harshest criticisms he ever gave me, and it was the same from my boss from 2011-2014. While I was beraded for a lack of results both companies were unable to get to begin with (due to several factors), there were 2 things they focused on that were within my control, and areas I was weak in that I needed to change. Now, should either (especially my last boss) have done so in such a demeaning way? No. It didn't keep us motivated or engaged long term. However, I would NEVER speak publicly to people about those bosses in a negative way. That's in my past. I've moved on and so have they. 

 

I don't know, with sports especially, I had coaches when I was a teenager for hockey that yelled at us on the bench and in the dressing room constantly. However, you're dealing with people (ie: players) that are playing on high levels of emotion and focus, with minimal time to get the message across. There is no time at all for, "Hey Josh. Thanks for getting off the ice and giving your best on your last shift. I really appreciate you and all the work that you just did. Now, would it be ok if I challenged you a little so you perhaps can add something different?" There's zero time for that. It's quite literally, without swearing and berating if you wish, "JOSH! Next time, either pass the puck to Tyler, or dump it in! Stop carrying it up yourself!" End of teaching moment.

[CanucksJay]

14 minutes ago, Monty said:

Yeah, I'm not too sure how to "feel" about this whole thing with Babcock. Bill Peters? Different story. But this, I just don't know.

 

I've had 3 bosses in my life who were absolutely brutal when it came to tearing me down. The last time I had one like that (2015), was particularly nasty. At times he got personal, always publicly in meetings (did that to majority of us), and I did have many moments of "This is demeaning and uncalled for." I "lasted" 10 months with the company and ended up finding something a lot better. Now, I also understand that this was a startup business and he was the owner, so he was under an enormous amount of stress. So the lack of success in the company seeped over to the staff. I also understood that everything he was piling onto us negatively for was 100% beyond our control, for the most part. I couldn't change things, nobody could. I also came into the company 2 years after it founded, and the "Foundation for Failure" was set long before I joined (the company folded 4 months after I left). 

 

That said, I also credit my boss for one of the harshest criticisms he ever gave me, and it was the same from my boss from 2011-2014. While I was beraded for a lack of results both companies were unable to get to begin with (due to several factors), there were 2 things they focused on that were within my control, and areas I was weak in that I needed to change. Now, should either (especially my last boss) have done so in such a demeaning way? No. It didn't keep us motivated or engaged long term. However, I would NEVER speak publicly to people about those bosses in a negative way. That's in my past. I've moved on and so have they. 

 

I don't know, with sports especially, I had coaches when I was a teenager for hockey that yelled at us on the bench and in the dressing room constantly. However, you're dealing with people (ie: players) that are playing on high levels of emotion and focus, with minimal time to get the message across. There is no time at all for, "Hey Josh. Thanks for getting of the ice and giving your best on your last shift. I really appreciate you and all the work that you just did. Now, would it be ok if I challenged you a little so you perhaps can add something different?" There's zero time for that. It's quite literally, without swearing and berating if you wish, "JOSH! Next time, either pass the puck to Tyler, or dump it in! Stop carrying it up yourself!" End of teaching moment.

Lol totally. 

I cant even tell my employees what to do anymore without them getting upset or employment engagement surveys screwing you over. 

Its all about talking about the good things they did and then have them talk about what they can do better and then have them make their own plan on how they will achieve this. Heaven forbid you take that one hour meeting and cut it down to 10 minutes by telling them what they need to do so we can all get back to work... The first part is the under 35 crowd. My 10 minute meetings is the over 35 crowd. Performance wise, its about even. Energy and time spent wise, i spend way more with the under 35. I think the lack of efficiency will eventually cause changes back to old school management again. 

[Monty]

2 minutes ago, CanucksJay said:

Lol totally. 

I cant even tell my employees what to do anymore without them getting upset or employment engagement surveys screwing you over. 

Its all about talking about the good things they did and then have them talk about what they can do better and then have them make their own plan on how they will achieve this. Heaven forbid you take that one hour meeting and cut it down to 10 minutes by telling them what they need to do so we can all get back to work... The first part is the under 35 crowd. My 10 minute meetings is the over 35 crowd. Performance wise, its about even. Energy and time spent wise, i spend way more with the under 35. I think the lack of efficiency will eventually cause changes back to old school management again. 

It’s a difficult balance. The time to bring up teaching moments at work for subordinates is right in the moment. Waiting until there performance review to bring up some error or something wrong they did months ago helps nothing. Both for you and the employee.

 

However, I’ve also noticed the under 35 crowd, not all obviously, is difficult to teach without having some sort of added “issue.” My old coworker, who experienced the same bad manager I did from 2011-2014, come to me in 2016 after both of us were long gone from that organization and said, “So, I’ve talked to a number of our old coworkers who used to work for “insert managers name”, and I’m getting signatures so we can bring it up to the current CEO of the corporation,” (this is a massive company BTW). He, by his own admission at the time as well, said that he wanted to get my input on what he was doing (he was in his late 20s). I just said:

 

“Travis, our boss is literally 4 months away from retiring. What’s the purpose from doing this? What I mean is, what do we hope to gain from taking her down a peg and ruining her last 4 months? For her entire career, she wasn’t a manager, and only managed herself. It wasn’t until her last 6 years working for the company (after a 35+ year career) where she was thrust into a management role that, she herself, said was a mistake to have taken. While I’m not going to tell you what to do here, I’d strongly advise against something like this. Honestly, if you table it for a year, you’ll have moved on and won’t even care.”

 

He appreciated my advise. Ended up not doing it, and said that he was wrong. But he was also the person that couldn’t take criticism from our boss at all. I just don’t get this type of thinking.

[kylecanuck]

I don't really understand how people can sit there and have people tear into them, who is stopping them from walking away? If someone is causing you to be terrified of coming to work, or breaks you down to tears, then quit, ask for a trade, do something rather then sit there. 

 

I've left jobs that have paid me very well because I didn't agree with what they where doing, or how they where doing it. If anyone spoke down to me, I Told them they where $&!# and then happily walked away...

 

A job is a job, don't give someone the power to ruin your life by allowing them to ruin your life.

[Tortorella's Rant]

Looks like Babcock is done. 

Not sure how you can possibly hire him again if Don Cherry & Bill Peters are untouchable. 


 

Edited December 3, 2019 by Tortorella's Rant

[Alflives]

1 minute ago, kylecanuck said:

I don't really understand how people can sit there and have people tear into them, who is stopping them from walking away? If someone is causing you to be terrified of coming to work, or breaks you down to tears, then quit, ask for a trade, do something rather then sit there. 

 

I've left jobs that have paid me very well because I didn't agree with what they where doing, or how they where doing it. If anyone spoke down to me, I Told them they where $&!# and then happily walked away...

 

A job is a job, don't give someone the power to ruin your life by allowing them to ruin your life.

Career and job IMO are different.  These players have been sacrificing from a young age to become NHL players.  That is their career.  What else would they do that could pay like hockey does?  

[Alflives]

Just now, Tortorella's Rant said:

Looks like Babcock is done. 

Not sure how you can possibly hire him again if Don Cherry & Bill Peters are untouchable. 


 

Cherry is likely still getting jobs in the States.  US companies will hire Don.  I don't see anyone willing to take on Peters.  Did Babcock do anything really bad?  

[Shift-4]

14 hours ago, rekker said:

Holy smokes the stories just keep coming. Babs may never work in the NHL again. 

It almost feels like the TML media machine in overdrive. Always got get stories out that show TML do the right thing.