The Kesler Situation

[bigbadcanucks]

I do, bigbad..a few that I know of. In my 40's & quickly going grey like Maurice Richard in the Grecian formula ad. I blame the Canucks for the shades of grey, & my capricious exes for PTSD-induced, memory loss. You youngin'-fans will eventually learn the utter importance of understanding who deserves blame for various, oncoming ailments. The west coast needs counselling, en-masse.

Wondering nowadays if waiting for something that hasn't arrived(cheque's in the mail!) is worthy of a damage-claim, & a generous, compensatory reward. Should Nucks fans surviving since the '70s, consider a class-action lawsuit? Would we sue the azz off Bill Laforge, Hary Neale, Gretzky, or the ghost of Jake Milford? Hard to say who is most culpable.

It's fans like you, Nuxfanabroad, that I'll be truly happy for when the Canucks win the cup...I've been a Canucks fan on and off since 1989, having become a true blue/green Canucks fan in 2005 when I moved back to the lower mainland after being away from 1997 to 2004 so I'm still a relative newby to Canuck-republic.

[CanucksSayEh]

Really the only forward outside Higgins (maybe) that had a decent year. Ofcourse his assists hurt, he was pretty much our only goalscorer. Matched his pots from his career 75 point year... How far off would he be from that if he had 2 25g scorers beside him like that year? not far........

Even Toews failed to crack 70, as usual. Expectations for a 2C to carry a winger pair? ridiculous, his goals aren't really affected by them, give the man a goalscorer again so we can rack up some points.

[messier's_elbow]

Totally agree Kryten.

No need to rush into any moves regarding Kesler right now.

Would you trade Kesler for Pouliot and a 2015 first?

[JeremyCuddles]

Totally agree Kryten.

No need to rush into any moves regarding Kesler right now.

That was the thought process with Schneids and Luo....so yeah. And Edler's "lets see how he is next year, break out year for sure!"

And from both our starter goalies we got Matthais, Markstrom, and Horvat.... What did Buffalo get for Miller?

[BlackRedYellow]

My take on this: Keep Kesler. Trade Edler and get a younger fast skating kid together with adding a more experienced UFA, both for playing WITH Kesler next year. Then we'd have two good starting lines.

[Just Jimmy]

You never get a good return on investment trading someone of Kesler's ability. I say keep him. If most of you think it's time to trade players that are still near the top of their game, then lets talk about trading the twins.

[tas]

You never get a good return on investment trading someone of Kesler's ability. I say keep him. If most of you think it's time to trade players that are still near the top of their game, then lets talk about trading the twins.

ugh. dumb.

[sroutley]

Will be nice to see what a real GM can do with this situation. I expect a new GM will move Kesler and get a great return.

[Boudrias]

For those that question Kesler's worth then why did USA Hockey have him on their top line at the Olympics?

Why consider trading him? IMHO it is because this core group is not good enough to be a serious CUP contender. If this assumption is correct then a new development timeline is required around another age cohort which I suggest is 20 - 24 year olds. We talk about a Kesler trade because his return is one of the largest from the existing roster.

Kesler has not shown enough consistancy as a 2C let alone inheriting the 1C from Henrik. Even the young (Santorelli) who Gillis signed as a FA played Kesler off the 2C this year. I am not suggesting Kesler is not a top 6 player but we have had two coaches who have not solved the 2nd line problem that has existed for over 3 seasons with Kes as the 2C.

Linden's challenge is building a top 6 line that can challenge the Twins for #1 in Van. There is no reason why the Twins cannot morph into a 2nd line threat. After the disaster of watching attempted PK duty by them this year I do not see them as viable 3rd liners.

IMHO the Canucks will not be CUP contenders until a new top line emerges and a talented offensive dman is developed/acquired. I saw enough of Kassian this year to think that he can play at least at 2RW with serious potential at 1RW. I would not use Hanson as a 'throw in' on any deal. He is a solid 3rd line player and not a top 6 which is what was attempted with him last year at times. He has a very physical and fast forecheck and can PK. What more is needed of him?

Edler: Moving him is like any other deal. It is all about what comes back and how that compliments your development timeline. Edler is still young enough that an incoming GM and coach might have ideas on how to turn him around. I thought Valk's comment about Tort's tearing him a new one turned the kid off for the season. Tort's even commented that he had not been able to get through to Edler. Edler's play has been trending down with both Tort's and AV which is not a good sign. If he is kept cut his TOI to 18-20 minutes and refocus his game around being a stay at home physical dman. Two coaching groups have not helped him. The risk of another group trying is that failure will reduce his trade value even further.

The difference between Van and so many other teams who share the cellar is that Van has a group of high level vets who could bring significant assets back to the org. The franchise's history is that the either held onto such assets to long to realize their value or they simply let them walk as UFA's. IMHO the Canuck management opted to ice a winning team at whatever short/long term cost as a sop their fan base. Win now with a weak roster depth equals long term failure.

Linden has more creditability with Van fans than anyone else I can think of. How long that lasts depends on how he defines the prospects of this org. Are Canuck fans willing to wait 5 years for another group of players to be developed into serious CUP contenders?

[theminister]

That was the thought process with Schneids and Luo....so yeah. And Edler's "lets see how he is next year, break out year for sure!"

And from both our starter goalies we got Matthais, Markstrom, and Horvat.... What did Buffalo get for Miller?

That's so completely lacking in context that it's not even worth refuting.

[theminister]

Would you trade Kesler for Pouliot and a 2015 first?

I think that, as a basis of a trade this is the minimum we should be asking for: a top prospect and a 1st. Minimum.

Here's the rub though…. since you are talking about a prospect that is extremely unlikely to be ready to step into the NHL immediately and a pick for the following year then there is little incentive to make that deal now as opposed to during the season. The 2015 pick, though in a good draft, is going to be low on the board with practically zero possibility of being a lottery pick. In my mind, that means that acquiring a similar pick in this type of deal is not going to be an immediate requirement as there will ample opportunity to find a similar pick at a future point, and it will not bear fruit for several seasons at any rate.

I'll never advocate for blowing up a roster with the intention of tanking, especially when our team is compromised as it is currently, so any deal of this type will entirely hinge upon any subsequent moves. Your proposed trade, in isolation, is not enough to indicate the totality of the franchise direction.

Is this proposed deal the one that gives us the most options at this juncture to augment the other parts of our organization that require attention? It's possible, as exampled by the Anaheim rumours involving picks and prospects, that there are better deals to be had for our current needs. Would not Vatanen, 10th overall 2014, + not be as equally good or better for our organization?

Since we have a nearly full roster currently, with our RFAs signed, and still maintaining potential cap space for a UFA then there must be one or more other trades to be made as well. My reasoning for this is that I find it entirely unlikely that the organization will enter the season with 5+ million dollars in unused cap space.

Who will be the GM?

Who will be the coach?

Are we going to buy out Booth?

Are we also looking to move a d-man?

What UFAs are we targeting?

Are we seeking another goaltender?

How ready are our young players to assume quality minutes, especially at centre?

These questions are more easily answered after this draft and during the UFA period, at the earliest, and probably better served even after training camp breaks . As I said before, we lack too much information at this current moment to just make a move like this without having the complete big picture plan in place.

How can we know what trades are right to make when we don't know what the competing offers are or what other player have received substantial interest off of our roster?

[Tearloch7]

Astutely put .. let the speculation roll on.

[FlyLow_]

Not for that Brandon Sutter deal, last thing we need is another 3rd liner. If we are trading our best player we need the right pieces and the right pieces are a top 6 winger and an offensive D. We would obviously have to add to the package but a deal with pitt would have to be for Neal and Pouliot.

Yes we need to make moves, but making moves just to make moves is retarded. Get the right pieces..

[TheSecretIsMe]

For those that question Kesler's worth then why did USA Hockey have him on their top line at the Olympics?

Why consider trading him? IMHO it is because this core group is not good enough to be a serious CUP contender. If this assumption is correct then a new development timeline is required around another age cohort which I suggest is 20 - 24 year olds. We talk about a Kesler trade because his return is one of the largest from the existing roster.

Exactly this.

I don't understand how there is any opposition to this statement.

*You could also add the fact that the Canucks organization would never trade the Sedins.

There are multiple reasons for this and they are not all based strictly off of their point production. They are superstar twin brothers that have been playing on the same team and line their entire pro-careers. It can be argued that there will never be another duo like these two ever again in the NHL.

The Sedins whether productive or not can generate revenue for the Canucks simply because they are a differentiated product.

[coastal1]

I favor trading Kesler and Garrison and/or Edler, plus Hansen, even Burrows .. no matter what Linden says, this core IS stale .. this organization is in trouble until the 'denial complex' is erased!

Linden overestimates the core? That's not a good sign.

[thad]

I think you just gotta sit down with him and see where he's at. If he loves the city and is pretty set on resigning in his contract year regardless of how good we are, then yeah keep him. If he seems unsure of being here in 2 years then maximize his value now. We're not going to win the cup in the next 2 years with or without him.

[Benchsplinters]

You never get a good return on investment trading someone of Kesler's ability. I say keep him. If most of you think it's time to trade players that are still near the top of their game, then lets talk about trading the twins.

Trading the twins will be like trying to trade Luongo was. What team is going to take a 14M cap hit and they will want to stay together. The Sedins are an anomaly and unfortunately it looks like Vancouver will have them for good.

I am hoping that last year's less than average performance by the twins was as a result of the way Torts used them. They are normally a high scoring duo and that is how they should be played the majority of time. AV was right in using them the way he did during his tenure with the team. They play responsible defense so they are not a liability in that regard. The PP is their forte and that is where they should be used along with a good scoring third player.

I want to see a new and powerful top line developed on this team with the Sedins moved to the second line. There needs to be a reason for the opposition to have to focus their attention on other players rather than the Sedins. Trading Kesler and Edler can get at least one of those top line scorers along with a couple of decent other players.

It is time to seriously look at some of our younger talent as well. Last years attempt to take a peek at our younger prospects was an absolute failure. I still cannot understand why one or two of our top prospects were not given a 9 game tryout at the start of the year. The teams problem last year was the coaching system and being unable to score goals. To give nine games to a young player might open your eyes to some potential and talent; you lose that option by simply locking them away in the minors without even giving them a look. Dinosaur thinking at best.

The coaching method disturbed chemistry throughout the dressing room which I believe cost us scoring and Injuries did not help either. However, it will take a long time for someone to try to convince me the production of the twins dwindled drastically in one season due to them getting older. The potential and talent of players of high caliber such as the twins does not simply disappear over night like it did this year.

Production due to age is displayed over a longer period of time. Other serious factors played havoc with their production and I boil that down to coaching methodology and philosophy which led to the loss of efficiency and chemistry of their game. Coaching obviously took its toll on the chemistry of players like Kesler, Higgins, Edler, Hamhuis, Borrows and even Booth and I seriously believe Linden saw that as well and subsequently fired Torts. It was obvious too many players were affected and Torts was the common denominator in it all.

The team needs a degree of change, not a total rebuild and Dealing Kesler and Edler away this year will go a long way to attaining the competitive change needed for the team

[Nuxfanabroad]

Some real strong posts on this page. I hope some of you people have interviews lined up.

Gleaned point that I enjoyed reading most?..The reminder that we DO have some significant vet pieces other teams would prob give a lot for, thereby fast-tracking to an exciting, younger & newer roster.

Also have faith in Trev. He'll want guys who play with the determination & integrity that he always maintained. If the team's identity emanates from his vision/persona, we're bound for skill , character & excellence.

[TheSecretIsMe]

Some real strong posts on this page. I hope some of you people have interviews lined up.

Gleaned point that I enjoyed reading most?..The reminder that we DO have some significant vet pieces other teams would prob give a lot for, thereby fast-tracking to an exciting, younger & newer roster.

Also have faith in Trev. He'll want guys who play with the determination & integrity that he always maintained. If the team's identity emanates from his vision/persona, we're bound for skill , character & excellence.

There's nothing more a Canuck fan would want.

[NucksCup2015]

Lot's of things could 'kill you.'

- Selling from a point of weakness

- Forcing a player with an NTC to move

- Upsetting the locker room

- Getting a poor return

- Believing there is only one path to success

- Disenfranchising your customers

This is a complicated business and this is a complicated discussion. There are so many factors for which we are not privy and/or are not able to properly predict the alternative time/space dimensions.

I think with the rising cap that there might be little incentive to move Kesler now rather than midseason if a move is an eventuality.

As it has been said many times before, only if the deal offered is impossible to refuse.

simply, the team needs to be made better by making such a move.

not many 30 goal scorers out there at his cap hit and who bring all the intangibles. if he wants to be here, then yes it makes it easier

issue is if he doesn't want to be here, or is 'iffy' do we need more distraction, do we keep a player who may jump when he's a UFA in 2 years if not happy, and we get less, as he will command alot on the open market, and may no mistake there will be ALOT of bidders for a 32 yr old Ryan Kesler...

those are considerations you haven't addressed but agree with the fact that this is complicated as you suggest