Jake Virtanen | #18 | RW

[Warhippy]

11 hours ago, suitup said:

And actually, yes. People have thought about waiting instead of just whining. Although I do criticize Jake from time to time, I try to do it fairly. I do recognize that he's our prospect and I'm perfectly fine with waiting for his development. But to say he was the right pick at 6th overall at this point in time is absurd. 

 

8 hours ago, suitup said:

 

 

 

and... 2) I never said that you said he was the right pick. I don't see where I said that? It was a response to your defense in saying there are many bad picks made in each draft. I'm saying that it's ridiculous to compare one draft to another. You should be comparing each draft to its own, and in this draft, we messed up. Answer this question and be honest, from what we can see so far, did we make the right pick? And be honest. Don't give me crap about how in the long run he can become a beast or whatever as anything can happen in the future, not that I don't agree with the sentiment that we should wait it out. However, at the present moment of his current progression rate, does it look like he'll justify his 6th overall position eventually? 

 

I suppose unless you do agree with Jake being a disappointment and all you were trying to do is to get people to accept Jake's poor progression in his development and get everybody to be a little more positive to combat all the negativity around here, then I suppose I agree. But not without fair criticism when it warrants it. 

I read that wrong, my mistake.

 

In my prior list you'll see though that you're kind of confirming everything I've said.  Players do not pan out as per their draft status.  A 6th overall pick can produce like a 60th overall pick  He of course deserves the criticism but the endless complaints are tiring and old.  The only thing more so is the "Ehlers Nylander" comments

 

See below

5 hours ago, filthycanuck said:

 

The problem is, while jake is putting up 30 pts in 2 years, Ehlers, Larkin and Pastrnak will be in the upper echelon of the league at that time, 30 - 50 goal players. I dont see why we have to keep picking garbage in the draft, waiting for them to develop, while other teams who are picking later than us are getting bonafide superstars that are already contributing within to years of hitting the NHL

Now, with your crystal ball from way back then how many times have you won the lottery?  You know seeing as how you knew Virtanen wasn't as good as Larkin, Pastrnak etc.

11 hours ago, BlackBeard said:

You often generalize and conclude things on most threads garnering lots of reputations in your post like this ones, getting a lot of reputations surely doesnt stop you from calling them having less common sense and patience than other fans

Generalize and conclude?

Should I start posting some of your recent comments in here in where you not only do just that on a consistent basis but also do it without any information to back your opinion up?

 

I could give 2 randy sharts about rep points.  The fact you seem to look at that and think it's important though tells me volumes about you ya saucy muppet.

[aGENT]

1 hour ago, Gooseberries said:

And larkin has struggled since the second half of last season. On pace for all of 32 pts...

Nylander (who was curiously and conveniently left off his list) is also not exactly setting the world on fire in TO either.

 

We don't need Virtanen to be putting up points right now. (Unless some of us were under the assumption we were going on a cup run this year...?). If Virtanen doesn't score another NHL point for 2+ more seasons, I couldn't care less. All I care about is that he develops and is able to put up some complimentary points while being a giant pain in the arse to play against in around 4 years. How he (hopefully) gets there is largely up to him.

[Noble 6]

The way I see it, team toughness should still be a priority. Now, I don't mean filling our future with a bunch of 200+lbs goons, but more have that pack mentality throughout our team. A prime example would be the Laine hit. It took about 1.5 seconds before Scheiffle, the teams #1 center and arguably best young player, was into it with McCabbe. The whole team went to send a message that you can't mess with their rookie star. That's the kind of team I want to build. 

 

Virtanen fits in as the catalyst of this mentality. To me, Virtanen's value can't be measured by goals, assists, PIMs or even hits. It's the difference in mentality that he could provide for us, even in a 3rd line role, that makes him truly valuable. Teams should consider that Virtanen could be after them for the rest of the game before stepping up on one of our better players. He already established himself as a big hitter in his rookie year, which is more than I wanted. Now he just needs to learn how to bring it consistently. 

 

I think if we had Ehlers or another top-10 pick from 2014, I would be very happy with that. But picking Virtanen at that spot at that time does make some sense. That was the first year of our general decline as an organization. It made sense to pick the player that was going to take longer to develop (not based on being a power forward, but based on IQ/maturity) as we would realistically have chances in the future to pick high end skill players. Of course we needed to address our defense first. By doing that, in theory, our new core would all hopefully come into their own at around the same time, which would hopefully set us up as a contender. 

[Zhukini]

2 hours ago, J.R. said:

Nylander (who was curiously and conveniently left off his list) is also not exactly setting the world on fire in TO either.

 

We don't need Virtanen to be putting up points right now. (Unless some of us were under the assumption we were going on a cup run this year...?). If Virtanen doesn't score another NHL point for 2+ more seasons, I couldn't care less. All I care about is that he develops and is able to put up some complimentary points while being a giant pain in the arse to play against in around 4 years. How he (hopefully) gets there is largely up to him.

The problem is that when we got to see him play this year, he was about as hard to play against as Vrbata on a bad day. He's not hitting, he's not doing much of anything other than float. 

 

Did Willie handle him wrong? Sure he did. This is his second coach now in Green and he's not setting the world on fire either, and I don't just mean in points. 

 

All I see regarding Jake are a bunch of excuses, he has a bad shoulder, the coach doesn't like him, he's playing the wrong position, he's only 20, at what point does it become his fault that he's just not that good, this year at least. 

[Zhukini]

14 minutes ago, Horvat is a Boss said:

The way I see it, team toughness should still be a priority. Now, I don't mean filling our future with a bunch of 200+lbs goons, but more have that pack mentality throughout our team. A prime example would be the Laine hit. It took about 1.5 seconds before Scheiffle, the teams #1 center and arguably best young player, was into it with McCabbe. The whole team went to send a message that you can't mess with their rookie star. That's the kind of team I want to build. 

 

Virtanen fits in as the catalyst of this mentality. To me, Virtanen's value can't be measured by goals, assists, PIMs or even hits. It's the difference in mentality that he could provide for us, even in a 3rd line role, that makes him truly valuable. Teams should consider that Virtanen could be after them for the rest of the game before stepping up on one of our better players. He already established himself as a big hitter in his rookie year, which is more than I wanted. Now he just needs to learn how to bring it consistently. 

 

I think if we had Ehlers or another top-10 pick from 2014, I would be very happy with that. But picking Virtanen at that spot at that time does make some sense. That was the first year of our general decline as an organization. It made sense to pick the player that was going to take longer to develop (not based on being a power forward, but based on IQ/maturity) as we would realistically have chances in the future to pick high end skill players. Of course we needed to address our defense first. By doing that, in theory, our new core would all hopefully come into their own at around the same time, which would hopefully set us up as a contender. 

This is not Todd Bertuzzi we are talking about, teams don't tremble in their boots looking at Jake Virtanen in their lineup, mostly because they aren't comprised of underdeveloped 16 year olds like Junior was. he's 6'1. 215, that's a good size but nothing to fret over, especially when he doesn't hit, and moreso when a good chunk of that is fat.

[aGENT]

1 minute ago, Zhukini said:

The problem is that when we got to see him play this year, he was about as hard to play against as Vrbata on a bad day. He's not hitting, he's not doing much of anything other than float. 

 

Did Willie handle him wrong? Sure he did. This is his second coach now in Green and he's not setting the world on fire either, and I don't just mean in points. 

 

All I see regarding Jake are a bunch of excuses, he has a bad shoulder, the coach doesn't like him, he's playing the wrong position, he's only 20, at what point does it become his fault that he's just not that good, this year at least. 

 

I never claimed he was playing well. I've said quite the opposite. Many times actually.

 

He needs to learn to constantly push and attack instead of floating like he could get away with in Junior. Because he's not doing that, he's not having success. Because he's not having success, his confidence is also down. Vicious cycle.

 

He's very much being stripped down to be built back up by Green right now IMO. As such, I doubt we see much production from him this season in Utica either. Especially given the context that they're not a very good team.

 

If he hasn't started to 'get it' in the next couple years, I'd say THEN it's his fault.

 

 

[Zhukini]

Just now, J.R. said:

 

I never claimed he was playing well. I've said quite the opposite. Many times actually.

 

He needs to learn to constantly push and attack instead of floating like he could get away with in Junior. Because he's not doing that, he's not having success. Because he's not having success, his confidence is also down. Vicious cycle.

 

He's very much being stripped down to be built back up by Green right now IMO. As such, I doubt we see much production from him this season in Utica either. Especially given the context that they're not a very good team.

 

If he hasn't started to 'get it' in the next couple years, I'd say THEN it's his fault.

 

 

Fair enough, there's generally a 5 year rule when it comes to prospects, so he should be given until then, but also you'd also like to generally see progression, not regression especially when not playing against NHLers

[aGENT]

1 minute ago, Zhukini said:

Fair enough, there's generally a 5 year rule when it comes to prospects, so he should be given until then, but also you'd also like to generally see progression, not regression especially when not playing against NHLers

 

All players don't take a linear path to the NHL

 

 

 

 

[Beary Sweet]

I rewatched Jake's draft day video when he drafted by us that day. His player comparable was Kyle Okposo. he's nowhere near that kind of player as of right now but it's a sneak peek of what kind of a player Jake can actually become if he puts it all together in Utica and translate it into the big club where he has matured and takes his time here seriously and not party out with Beiber and crap. He will become a great player maybe similar to Okposo but think more like Kunitz like maybe. physical game with always having an eye for goal. hope he continues to learn the game with Green and hopefully see him back up at some point if things go out of hand

[Noble 6]

18 minutes ago, Zhukini said:

This is not Todd Bertuzzi we are talking about, teams don't tremble in their boots looking at Jake Virtanen in their lineup, mostly because they aren't comprised of underdeveloped 16 year olds like Junior was. he's 6'1. 215, that's a good size but nothing to fret over, especially when he doesn't hit, and moreso when a good chunk of that is fat.

Your talking about right now. I'm talking about what he could do for us in his prime. 

[WHL rocks]

11 hours ago, filthycanuck said:

 

The problem is, while jake is putting up 30 pts in 2 years, Ehlers, Larkin and Pastrnak will be in the upper echelon of the league at that time, 30 - 50 goal players. I dont see why we have to keep picking garbage in the draft, waiting for them to develop, while other teams who are picking later than us are getting bonafide superstars that are already contributing within to years of hitting the NHL

We picked Boeser late in round 1. He's going to be a much better player than most of those picked ahead of him. 

 

BOS lucked out with Pastrak like we did with Boeser. Even though Boeser is no in the NHL, all signs point to him as becoming a successful NHLer. This is exactly why rebuilds take so long. 10 years is normal. Not all draft picks turn out and even those that do take many years to develop into legit NHL players. 

[Alflives]

30 minutes ago, WHL rocks said:

We picked Boeser late in round 1. He's going to be a much better player than most of those picked ahead of him. 

 

BOS lucked out with Pastrak like we did with Boeser. Even though Boeser is no in the NHL, all signs point to him as becoming a successful NHLer. This is exactly why rebuilds take so long. 10 years is normal. Not all draft picks turn out and even those that do take many years to develop into legit NHL players. 

Exactly.  Most draft picks don't turn out.  Why then did JB trade away so many of our picks?

[WonderTwinPowers]

30 minutes ago, Alflives said:

Exactly.  Most draft picks don't turn out.  Why then did JB trade away so many of our picks?

How mamy times have you had to ask this question? In how many different threads?

 

He was restocking the 20-25 year range where we had NOTHING!!! Bear, Pedan, Vey, Granlund to a lesser extent. Some of the trades worked, some didn't. We needed that depth to try and compete. We arent doing a tire fire, sell everything and accept sucking rebuild. Deal with it.

[WHL rocks]

4 minutes ago, WonderTwinPowers said:

How mamy times have you had to ask this question? In how many different threads?

 

He was restocking the 20-25 year range where we had NOTHING!!! Bear, Pedan, Vey, Granlund to a lesser extent. Some of the trades worked, some didn't. We needed that depth to try and compete. We arent doing a tire fire, sell everything and accept sucking rebuild. Deal with it.

Sometimes best to avoid Alf's questions. He's the house troll on CDC. He's our troll so he's OK. But he's a troll no doubt. 

[Warhippy]

32 minutes ago, WHL rocks said:

Sometimes best to avoid Alf's questions. He's the house troll on CDC. He's our troll so he's OK. But he's a troll no doubt. 

You actually have to admire his level of dedication to it.

[Phat Fingers]

On January 10, 2017 at 3:47 PM, Warhippy said:

There is no discussion of weeding out anyone.  It is simply saying that this forum needs an enema

 

CDC's belief that anyone picked int eh top 10 NEEDS to be an immediate producer in the NHL on the top 6 or top 4 immediately following draft without once considering the multitude of players picked in the last 7 or 8 years in the top 10 that are not panning out, have not lived up to CDCs desperate belief that all top 10 players will be studs, that not all top 10 picks will be immediate impact players or will not live up to the hype of their draft position

 

Look at this thread and the Juolevi thread.  Then go look at the trade proposals for prospects on other teams and watch as they offer up our prospects like they're candy

 

it's sickening.  Then to get asked why there is a comparison like it hasn't sunk in that not every pick is a guarantee and I face hump my keyboard in frustration

 

Imagine us getting the 1st overall pick and us drafting a Hall, RNH or a Yakupov.  Good players (barring Yak) but nowhere NEAR their draft position for CDC standards.

 

Go look at the 2017 draft threads it's the exact same thing.  ZOMG Patrick/LIljegren/Hischier immediate impact 1st line player ZOMG without once thinking they'll need development, time or that they won't be immediate impact players like a Matthews/McDavid/Ekblad

 

Hell it's a good thing the twins were drafted pre forum/internet or they'd have been run out of town by their 3rd year.

 

Virtanen, who is at the heart of this matter might never be more than a quality bottom 6 player.  And so what.  OMG he better pan out, he better be this he better be that Nylander Ritchie Ehlers blah blah blah.  Well we don't have those guys.  We have Virtanen.  And people are all but writing him off at age 20 and it bugs me.

 

Nobody is speaking of weeding out people on this forum.  But this forum needs an enema and needs to start understanding that nothing is guaranteed.  We want a cup.  Ok, well we don't get one by rushing players in to the league.  We want a good team.  Great, that won't happen this year.

 

Virtanen is a project picked at 6th overall, it's a get behind it or whine about it situation.  Yet nobody ever considers the other option

 

Patience.

 

 

POST OF THE YEAR!!!!!!!!!

 

 

i have followed this board since Bob Essensa was a poster and this may have been the best thing I have ever read. 

 

Mad props to War Hippy.  Love the name btw.  

 

You have it right again and I wish I could give you 1000 pluses. 

 

This should be copied and posted as a must read for all the CDC. 

 

EW

[saucypass]

9 hours ago, Warhippy said:

 

I read that wrong, my mistake.

 

In my prior list you'll see though that you're kind of confirming everything I've said.  Players do not pan out as per their draft status.  A 6th overall pick can produce like a 60th overall pick  He of course deserves the criticism but the endless complaints are tiring and old.  The only thing more so is the "Ehlers Nylander" comments

 

No worries. 

 

Yes, but what the point of my post was trying to illustrate is that people criticizing this pick is just as natural as a 6th overall pick producing like a 60th overall pick. I do agree with the complaints getting out of hand at times though. 

[BlackBeard]

9 hours ago, Warhippy said:

 

I read that wrong, my mistake.

 

In my prior list you'll see though that you're kind of confirming everything I've said.  Players do not pan out as per their draft status.  A 6th overall pick can produce like a 60th overall pick  He of course deserves the criticism but the endless complaints are tiring and old.  The only thing more so is the "Ehlers Nylander" comments

 

See below

Now, with your crystal ball from way back then how many times have you won the lottery?  You know seeing as how you knew Virtanen wasn't as good as Larkin, Pastrnak etc.

Generalize and conclude?

Should I start posting some of your recent comments in here in where you not only do just that on a consistent basis but also do it without any information to back your opinion up?

 

I could give 2 randy sharts about rep points.  The fact you seem to look at that and think it's important though tells me volumes about you ya saucy muppet.

haha sure throw em all let's see. let's see where I generalize the fans and doesn't say why i generalize them.

 

You like to portray people as terrible and belittle them calling them people with less common sense or worst than other people, just because they don't agree with you. In fact, when you make these generalizations and conclusion It's always always on your post to call a certain group or somebody an idiot or stupid. 

 

look what you just did, you call people having crystal balls and all just because they they have an opinion that is different to you, and how does that make a discussion to progress when you all you can say is "crystal ball". 

[HomeBrew]

It was generally understood at the time of drafting Virtanen that it was between him, Nylander and Ehlers for our 6th pick. Our choice, thus far, has not turned out to be as effective in the NHL as the others which leads people to be a little disgruntled because a lot of people here wanted either one of the other choices (Nylander or Ehler) when the selection was made. It is understandable that people are not happy. With that said, and what some others have said, it is getting tiresome with the amount of whining and the people whining about the whiners.

 

I would rather read and participate in discussions about his progress for what it is and where he might fit the team. Often the vast array of possible targets for the whining are isolated, so while people still complain that we chose Virtanen, at the same time we complain that the team gets pushed around too much. Perhaps there was a reason GM JB chose Virtanen as a piece for his cup team and not the others. I think the guys he is intentionally bringing in, like Virtanen and Gudbranson, will pay huge dividends when we are threats for the cup again. I care less about what Virtanen does during regular season output, than I do with his eventual role in bringing a cup to town. I personally have given Virtanen the benefit of doubt this year - being his first "back to reality" season in the AHL. If he does not improve upon this season next year, I will start to be worried about his potential. 

[Warhippy]

20 minutes ago, BlackBeard said:

haha sure throw em all let's see. let's see where I generalize the fans and doesn't say why i generalize them.

 

You like to portray people as terrible and belittle them calling them people with less common sense or worst than other people, just because they don't agree with you. In fact, when you make these generalizations and conclusion It's always always on your post to call a certain group or somebody an idiot or stupid. 

 

look what you just did, you call people having crystal balls and all just because they they have an opinion that is different to you, and how does that make a discussion to progress when you all you can say is "crystal ball". 

My crystal balls are yuge buddy

 

Don't worry about my crystals