canuckledraggin Posted October 27, 2015 Share Posted October 27, 2015 Ya I've read some of the transcripts of that interview and if Willie is being 100% honest and not just trying to justify his decisions in face of mounting criticism, then I guess its all good. I don't personally agree with the idea of sheltering players to the degree that he has but I can get past that if he starts to give Jake and McCann some legitimate opportunities in the next few games. At least make an effort to get a good read on their trajectory before they hit the 9 game mark (even though I agree the ELC mark isn't the biggest concern) and you then have to make a decision to keep them or send them back. I mean making a mistake (and learning to deal with it and bounce back on the next shift) is a part of being an NHL player, so no point trying to create an environment where they never make a mistake. That's how you learn what a player is made of and whether they are cut out for this league. Sadly we are nearly half way through Jake's 9 games and more than half through McCann's and we still don't really know yet. Anyway, I hope he does give them those minutes on the projected lines next game and we can see what we have in these kids. As you say, the time to be bringing these kids in is now (or soon at least) as we have quality leaders like the Sedins, Burrows, etc to show them the ropes and help them find their way. Don't throw that away chasing a (nearly) meaningless playoff spot.I had no idea that we would ever have something in common. As I posted above, there really is nobody that can come in and steal their jobs...Accelerate the rebuild or retool or whatever you want to call it and Benning said last year that 3-5 would make it.I'm sure Clendenning was in there over Hutton, but now the 5 have become Markstrom, Hutton, Baertschi, McCann and Virtanen. I'm sure they were impressed that they got to take an extended look at the 19 year olds... Vey, Jensen, Shinkaruk are going to play in the NHL as well, but it's not their turn yet. I think if you put the feet to the fire of Shink and Gaunce, that you might see those two bubble to the surface as well. We have the greatest number of legitimate prospects that we've ever had and there's going to be some serious decisions to be made. I can't argue with the speed approach to the game. Speed kills in every sport and we finally have a speedy backchecking style that's going to be successful.I put zero stock in what we see in the early going. It's going to be fun to watch the pacific, because the Ducks are making it interesting. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derp... Posted October 27, 2015 Share Posted October 27, 2015 I think Virtanen scores against Price Tuesday. Probably a rebound or a deflection, but I think he gets #1 on the season and in his career.Have a good feeling about him playing with Burr. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canuktravella Posted October 27, 2015 Share Posted October 27, 2015 I think Virtanen scores against Price Tuesday. Probably a rebound or a deflection, but I think he gets #1 on the season and in his career.Have a good feeling about him playing with Burr.agreed i think burrow sutter and virtanen will light it up tomorrow night Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alflives Posted October 27, 2015 Share Posted October 27, 2015 That's not what I typed. I liked the pick and I still have high hopes for Jake. But I've followed Canuck draft picks since Petr Nedved and simply put there is no exact science to predicting how a player will turn out. I've seen players I thought were surefire NHLers bust (Josh Holden, Cody Hodgson) and I've seen picks I hated at the time turn into top NHLers (Kesler). I am not sure arrogant or blind with Canuck passion that I dismiss the possibility that Jake can bust or not reach the heights expected of him. Hes a great kid and I like him a lot but that doesn't mean he's a sure thing.Which I accept, and applies to Ehlers and Nylander too. However, Jake (because of his skill set and physical nature) will be an NHL player, whereas the other two must produce consistent offence, or they bust. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimberWolf Posted October 27, 2015 Share Posted October 27, 2015 Virt seems like a girl in the air force, Got to be twice as good as the men to earn half the respect.That said I don't think he's ready but we don't know for sure. Give the ice time and opportunity and lets find out. It's not like we're winning here with the current plan. If he does well then hooray. If he doesn't then back to jr. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baumerman77 Posted October 27, 2015 Share Posted October 27, 2015 I'll blame WD because he is the one who is making the ice time usage decisions that I disagree with. The development of Jake (as well as McCann, Horvat, and Hutton) supersedes the importance of picking up points or making a playoff spot this year. We saw that movie last year and it was a waste of time. The team is (if anything) worse this year and even less likely to do better than a first round exit. While I can understand ownership's prioritizing of playoff revenue, it is the wrong focus IMO especially if it comes at the expense of developing our young talent. And the problem with "trusting" Willie to make the right call with Jake is that he's shown time and time again to make questionable decisions regarding ice time and player usage. Last year's playoffs where he couldn't figure out the Sbisa and Bieksa were getting killed by Calgary's forecheck, played the Sedins 15-16 minutes and sat them late in games, etc are clear examples that Willie's judgement is not above being questioned.I agree that this season is a write off and that we should be focusing on developing players. But that decision starts with Benning. And he has made it clear that he wants to "rebuild on the fly" despite it being a highly unattainable goal. But coaches are paid to win and unless Benning makes it clear to WD that he can give out ice time to players for developmental purposes even if it doesn't line up with who WD thinks will give the Canucks the best shot to win on any given night then I will blame WD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sharbinder Posted October 27, 2015 Share Posted October 27, 2015 Shinkaurik - Horvat - BoeserBaertschi - McCann - VirtanenGaunce - Cassels - Zhukenov Hopefully 2 of McCann, Horvat, Shinkaurik or Baertschi can really bring out the top-6 player in Virtanen.more like.... Tkachuk/Benson - McCann - BigCountryShink - Boho - Boeser Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aGENT Posted October 27, 2015 Share Posted October 27, 2015 (edited) The development of Jake (as well as McCann, Horvat, and Hutton) supersedes the importance of picking up points or making a playoff spot this year. You're delusional if you think the club will do this. Coach's are paid to win first. Developing players (while important) is a secondary concern. Benning/Linden have also stated numerous times their goal is to bring youth in to a winning environment.You're basically, purposely setting yourself up for disappointment with that line of thinking. Edited October 27, 2015 by J.R. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nergish Posted October 27, 2015 Share Posted October 27, 2015 Virtanen will be a beast top 6 player. A guy who hits that hard that young doesn't come around every day. Whether he skates into his hits or not doesn't even matter--he will lay someone out--but it must be mentioned how fast he is. I wanted Virtanen or Ehlers in the draft. However, I felt like we got the right guy at 6 considering the guy we got at 24, and I still feel that way. Ehlers would have been nice, but we could not fit someone that size into the line up when we had Schroeder or when we first got Shinkaruk.Now, guys like Shinkaruk, McCann, and Baertschi will have a better cast around em because we've drafted guys like Virtanen. Yes, I'm disappointed in Virtanen's offensive output, but he has exhibited hockey IQ than we thought, and asserted himself with limited icetime. Thank you for bringing some sort of clarity back to this thread, it was getting ridiculous. Even if Jake scores 200 less points in his career than Ehlers (!), it still doesn't necessarily make it the wrong pick. This is some weird modern obsession with numbers and picks and everything being about "value". Virtanen is a core guy. He is an energy player who plays tough, old-school Canadian hockey, and by the time he's 25-30 he'll be one of the most intimidating players on the ice every time he's out there. People are worried that his offence hasn't been there, and frankly he doesn't look like a 6th overall in terms of sheer puck skills or offensive awareness. But, we got McCann in the same draft. If we took two similar players, that would take away from the one huge advantage Vancouver has in their prospects cupboard: diversity. We wanted to be meaner and stronger, faster: enter Jake. The notion that we had any pressure on us to pick any sort of player at 6 is absurd. We had a high pick and we picked a prized prospect. But has he really played poorly? Not from what I've seen. He's not ready to contribute offensively, but it doesn't mean he's not NHL-ready. He and McCann, in my estimation, have both ALREADY proven they belong in the NHL. They haven't proven they are going to be elite players, but we don't need them to be yet. What we need is for them to be up here, playing in the best league in the world and not taking anything for granted. We've lost the extra point the last few outings.... but this season has still been a success for the Canucks so far in my eyes... 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aGENT Posted October 27, 2015 Share Posted October 27, 2015 Pretty much ^^^^I'm not sure why everyone's seemingly in sheer panic that all of a whopping 4 games in to his NHL career that he isn't 1PPG and the coach isn't playing him 15+ minutes a night. He's looked just fine in a very (as yet) sheltered role. The coaches are easing him in, exerting as little extra pressure on him as possible and he's looked fine and will likely be better for it in the long run.Pretty much the same treatment Horvat got last year. Their roles may be different but the coach's are easing him in to the NHL in the same exceedingly gentle manner. Slowly giving him more rope as he gets comfortable with the amount he's already got.Calm the @#$% down. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uselessstats Posted October 27, 2015 Share Posted October 27, 2015 (edited) You're delusional if you think the club will do this. Coach's are paid to win first. Developing players (while important) is a secondary concern. Benning/Linden have also stated numerous times their goal is to bring youth in to a winning environment.You're basically, purposely setting yourself up for disappointment with that line of thinking.I'm hardly delusional and while I understand that making a playoff spot has been stated as a goal of this management, is the marginal difference between Prust/ Dorsett and Virtanen/ McCann really worth potentially stunting the development of your two prized first rounders over? If they were giving those minutes to the Sedins then ya that makes sense. But they are literally taking minutes from the future of this team - the "rebuild on the fly" part of the equation - and giving it to two stone handed plugs who hit and chase the puck. That isn't helping us win and it certainly isn't helping develop the kids. Wanna see how teams can develop kids AND win games? Go check out a Winnipeg or Arizona game where their talented but still learning rookies are given 14-17 minutes in offensive situations and their teams both have winning records. So clearly playing rookies and winning aren't mutually exclusive scenarios, though Willie seems to treat it as such. Edited October 27, 2015 by uselessstats 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dekey Pete Posted October 27, 2015 Share Posted October 27, 2015 I'm hardly delusional and while I understand that making a playoff spot has been stated as a goal of this management, is the marginal difference between Prust/ Dorsett and Virtanen/ McCann really worth potentially stunting the development of your two prized first rounders over? If they were giving those minutes to the Sedins then ya that makes sense. But they are literally taking minutes from the future of this team - the "rebuild on the fly" part of the equation - and giving it to two stone handed plugs who hit and chase the puck. That isn't helping us win and it certainly isn't helping develop the kids. Wanna see how teams can develop kids AND win games? Go check out a Winnipeg or Arizona game where their talented but still learning rookies are given 14-17 minutes in offensive situations and their teams both have winning records. So clearly playing rookies and winning aren't mutually exclusive scenarios, though Willie seems to treat it as such.Well done! First time I've ever heard anyone reference Arizona as a model for success! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aGENT Posted October 27, 2015 Share Posted October 27, 2015 I'm hardly delusional and while I understand that making a playoff spot has been stated as a goal of this management, is the marginal difference between Prust/ Dorsett and Virtanen/ McCann really worth potentially stunting the development of your two prized first rounders over? If they were giving those minutes to the Sedins then ya that makes sense. But they are literally taking minutes from the future of this team - the "rebuild on the fly" part of the equation - and giving it to two stone handed plugs who hit and chase the puck. That isn't helping us win and it certainly isn't helping develop the kids. Wanna see how teams can develop kids AND win games? Go check out a Winnipeg or Arizona game where their talented but still learning rookies are given 14-17 minutes in offensive situations and their teams both have winning records. So clearly playing rookies and winning aren't mutually exclusive scenarios, though Willie seems to treat it as such.Pretty much ^^^^I'm not sure why everyone's seemingly in sheer panic that all of a whopping 4 games in to his NHL career that he isn't 1PPG and the coach isn't playing him 15+ minutes a night. He's looked just fine in a very (as yet) sheltered role. The coaches are easing him in, exerting as little extra pressure on him as possible and he's looked fine and will likely be better for it in the long run.Pretty much the same treatment Horvat got last year. Their roles may be different but the coach's are easing him in to the NHL in the same exceedingly gentle manner. Slowly giving him more rope as he gets comfortable with the amount he's already got.Calm the @#$% down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aGENT Posted October 27, 2015 Share Posted October 27, 2015 I don't have the stats in front of me but if we look at his box score over the last 20-25 hockey games there are a whole lot of 0's which is a bit concerning. How could it not be? I'm not particularly worried. He's been doing a LOT of adjusting and learning in his first pro games (Utica/Van). The kid's barely got his feet wet and you're already terrified he'll never be able to swim.Calm down and be patient. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaudette Celly Posted October 27, 2015 Share Posted October 27, 2015 I feel as though the succession plan is to put the kids in now and speed up the rebuild by a year or 2. When you have leaders like the Sedins on your team, you want to get your top prospects with them early and often.This is one of the reasons why I believe McCann and Virtanen both stay this year. Dorsett is here longer but Prust likely just one year along with some of the other one-year deals, and Benning made it quite clear they were here for that mentorship role. Mentoring of Horvat in his sophomore year isn't near the importance of the three kids coming in raw. This is the year to do it -- next year we could well see 3-4 more vets gone, leaving just the Sedins, Burrows, Edler, Tanev, and maybe Hansen remaining of the old core. We could even see another one or two up by the TDL (Gaunce, Pedan) if more moves are made.Jake and Jared are doing just fine for where they're at. They aren't costing the team on the ice, and are giving a added dimension with the skills they bring. Willie will let them grow as they are able and ready, and doing so here is preferable to another year in junior. It's only been a half-dozen games; their feet are barely wet. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uselessstats Posted October 27, 2015 Share Posted October 27, 2015 Well done! First time I've ever heard anyone reference Arizona as a model for success!didn't mention anything about a "model" mate, just that there are two green, mistake-prone rookies playing big minutes on their team THIS YEAR and whoa, they aren't 0-8 somehow. Mind blown right? How can a team possibly play rookies and still win games? Weird eh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aGENT Posted October 27, 2015 Share Posted October 27, 2015 didn't mention anything about a "model" mate, just that there are two green, mistake-prone rookies playing big minutes on their team THIS YEAR and whoa, they aren't 0-8 somehow. Mind blown right? How can a team possibly play rookies and still win games? Weird eh?Correlation does not equal causation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uselessstats Posted October 27, 2015 Share Posted October 27, 2015 Correlation does not equal causation.oh I'n well aware of the difference. You watched Domi and Duclair yet? There is definitely causation there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Edlerberry Posted October 27, 2015 Popular Post Share Posted October 27, 2015 I guess that's what happens when a team blows their highest pick in years and everyone is too blind to realize it until reality hits them in the face when the guys taken right after him are playing miles better.As much as I love Ehlers and Nylander having greater success and saying "I told you so", this is a bad situation we're in and WD and Benning have to make the most of this monstrous mistake. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guntrix Posted October 28, 2015 Share Posted October 28, 2015 You know you don't have much to go on to defend Virtanen when all you ever do is post face palm pics.No stats, no variables, no nothing from JV supporters. But that's none of my business. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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