Jake Virtanen | #18 | RW

[Sean Monahan]

Just now, JamesB said:

I agree that we should not expect superstars at #6 overall and we should be happy if Virtanen develops into a quality NHL player. My personal view is that if he can be a solid 2nd line winger who provides speed and toughness and scores at the rate of .5 PPG by the time he is 23  or so we should be happy.

If he only becomes a bottom 6 banger then we would legitimately be disappointed. We should not be wasting top-10 picks on bottom 6 bangers as they can be picked up relatively easily as free agents or in trade for low draft picks.

Obviously the jury is still out but I personally have been disappointed to see Jake slotted into the bottom 6 banger role. It would be much better to see the skill level that McCann and Horvat demonstrated at the same age. And of course there is the comparison with the guys the Canucks could have picked -- Ehlers, who has 12 pts for Winnipeg this year and is +2, or Nylander, who is on fire in the AHL (leading the lead in scoring). It is early but right now Virtanen needs to do some catching up.

I know SNYPERS would be pissed to hear this but I may have reconsidered my fanhood if we'd drafted Ehlers. Can't stand him. I'll give you Nylander though, as back in June 2014 I was 50/50 between him and Jake. I still think we're writing Jake off way too early though. Not many guys score goals the way he did in his draft year. Whether he'll ever return to that form remains to be seen but the physical gifts are so tantalizing. Like others have said he doesn't seem to process the game at a supreme level, but IMO if he can even think hockey at a reasonably good level he'll be a good player. His game isn't cerebral or methodical, it's straight-line, north-south, and physical. I'll be disappointed, like anybody, if he caps out as a Raffi Torris but I'll gladly take a Chris Kreider (who likely hasn't peaked yet either, mind you). The first time Jake absolutely little-boys Ehlers or Nylander I think some people will be changing their tune.

[newgm]

Jake was a great pick at number 6, there might end up being a better player that was picked in the 3rd round, know one knows at this ridiculously early stage. I would bet that JB has no regret whatsoever with this particular pick if he had it to do over again, the package that Jake offers is extremely rare, now it's up to the team to develop him properly.

[Alflives]

11 minutes ago, The 5th Line said:

When the Canucks were on the clock and Nylander had been mentioned as being the most pure offensively gifted player in the 2014 draft, a player who could of gone anywhere from 1st overall to 5th overall, sure he doesn't have the size and two way game like the Draisaitls and the Bennets and the Reinharts but when he slid all the way to 6th I thought it was a no brainer?  He was compared to players like Claude Giroux and even Patrick Kane.   We went for size and a hometown boy, Carolina wanted a defenceman and Toronto of all places is laughing all the way to the bank with a steal of an 8th overall pick.  I'm no draft expert but I don't see how we possibly can make that decision?  We filled an organizational need 100% I am just as tired as anybody watching our team get pushed around year after year but could we not have picked up a Virtanen-like player in the 2nd, 3rd , 4th , 5th , 6th , 7th round with Bennings late round drafting record I thought it was feasible?   Less than 2 years from the draft and it's already clear that we made the wrong decision, I piss off a lot of posters here because of my lack of patience but c'mon, you don't have to be a pro scout to see some serious deficiencies in Jakes game.  Craig Button was right about Jake IMO

 

 

Does your opinion about Nylander really have anything to do with JV though?  I don't see the connection.  As for Nylander, he has done nothing at the NHL level (not that JVHas either, but we should not be comparing them).  A better comparison for Nylander is Lynden Vey.  

As for JV I do agree that he is not showing he's ready for the NHL.  I just don't see Nylander as showing any more than Vey at this point in his career.  So really there is nothing to get all troubled over of that pick, other than JV is not showing he's ready yet.  

Its all a matter of opinion (personal bias) at this point.  No one - IMO - is wrong or right.  Is JV another Raffi Tores, and is Nylander another Lynden Vey?  Only time will tell.

[Jiggs50]

^^ Nylander is DOMINATING the ahl. Vey was never that good. 

Imo Virtanen is behind Ehlers and Nylander in terms of development. It may sound stupid because Nylander isn't even playing in the nhl. Physically he's still growing but he's killing it in the ahl. 

For the most part when he's not hitting Virtanen just looks lost. Doesn't help that the coach won't even play him consistently. The expectations for him were also way to high. If that old grumpy fart can play him in the top 9 consistently (12+ mins) maybe Jake turns it around.

 

 

 

[JamesB]

3 hours ago, Wild Sean Monahan said:

I know SNYPERS would be pissed to hear this but I may have reconsidered my fanhood if we'd drafted Ehlers. Can't stand him. I'll give you Nylander though, as back in June 2014 I was 50/50 between him and Jake. I still think we're writing Jake off way too early though. Not many guys score goals the way he did in his draft year. Whether he'll ever return to that form remains to be seen but the physical gifts are so tantalizing. Like others have said he doesn't seem to process the game at a supreme level, but IMO if he can even think hockey at a reasonably good level he'll be a good player. His game isn't cerebral or methodical, it's straight-line, north-south, and physical. I'll be disappointed, like anybody, if he caps out as a Raffi Torris but I'll gladly take a Chris Kreider (who likely hasn't peaked yet either, mind you). The first time Jake absolutely little-boys Ehlers or Nylander I think some people will be changing their tune.

 

37 minutes ago, The 5th Line said:

When the Canucks were on the clock and Nylander had been mentioned as being the most pure offensively gifted player in the 2014 draft, a player who could of gone anywhere from 1st overall to 5th overall, sure he doesn't have the size and two way game like the Draisaitls and the Bennets and the Reinharts but when he slid all the way to 6th I thought it was a no brainer?  He was compared to players like Claude Giroux and even Patrick Kane.   We went for size and a hometown boy, Carolina wanted a defenceman and Toronto of all places is laughing all the way to the bank with a steal of an 8th overall pick.  I'm no draft expert but I don't see how we possibly can make that decision?  We filled an organizational need 100% I am just as tired as anybody watching our team get pushed around year after year but could we not have picked up a Virtanen-like player in the 2nd, 3rd , 4th , 5th , 6th , 7th round with Bennings late round drafting record I thought it was feasible?   Less than 2 years from the draft and it's already clear that we made the wrong decision, I piss off a lot of posters here because of my lack of patience but c'mon, you don't have to be a pro scout to see some serious deficiencies in Jakes game.  Craig Button was right about Jake IMO

 

 

Both the above comments makes sense to me. Both allude to the Craig Button's well-known assessment. He predicted the Canucks would take Virtanen at #6 but he thought it was a mistake as he thought Virtanen belonged in the second round on the grounds that we basically a "Raffi Torres" -- a tough guy who makes some big hits and skates well, but who lacks the "hockey IQ" (or doesn't "process the game" well enough) to be legitmate top 6 forward and is not strong enough defensively to be valuable on the PK or a primary shutdown guy.

But I think these two comments have range right. I think the optimistic ceiling for Jake is Chris Kreider. Kreider is a #19 overall pick who has outperformed most low first rounders and has a career NHL PPG of 0.5 so far. That PPG is likely to rise.  He has excellent speed, size, and strength. I think the pessimistic ceiling is Rafi Torres (a #5 overall pick with a career PPG in the NHL of 0.41).

While we are waiting to see how Jake does, let's send him to the world juniors.

 

Edited December 12, 2015 by JamesB

[Alflives]

4 minutes ago, Jiggs50 said:

^^ Nylander is DOMINATING the ahl. Vey was never that good. 

Imo Virtanen is behind Ehlers and Nylander in terms of development. It may sound stupid because Nylander isn't even playing in the nhl. Physically he's still growing but he's killing it in the ahl. 

For the most part when he's not hitting Virtanen just looks lost. Doesn't help that the coach won't even play him consistently. The expectations for him were also way to high. If that old grumpy fart can play him in the top 9 consistently (12+ mins) maybe Jake turns it around.

 

 

 

Vey dominated in the A too, and we saw how his skills translated.  Ehlers has really gone backwards, and the Jets are falling fast.  we should be happy we got darned lucky with McCann.  He's a far better player than WN and NE.

[Gstank29]

I think some people are lacking in prespective in this thread

http://nhl.nbcsports.com/2015/10/15/here-are-the-10-youngest-skaters-in-the-nhl/

 

Rantanen is in the AHL and Sprong may be sent down but it still applies

Edited December 12, 2015 by Gstank29

[Alflives]

6 minutes ago, The 5th Line said:

I understand Nylander has done nothing at the NHL yet.  But come on, he came in last year as an 18 year old and lit up the AHL and he's doing it again this year even more so as a 19 year old, did Linden Vey do that?  Was Linden Vey ever compared to Patty Kane?  Nylander from what I have heard could of played in the NHL last season and he most certainly could be playing there this year, the leafs have a plan to keep him in the Minors until they start winning more games and become a bit more competitive, it has nothing to do with Nylanders play.   If William was playing in the NHL right now, who do you think would be making a bigger impact?   Him or Jake?

That's my point.  I think we agree.  If he was playing in the NHL we could make such judgements and they would have validity.  We don't know yet, because there is no NHL evidence.  With JV we can state from evidence of his actual NHL play that he looks to need development.  Any criticism of JV is warranted and validated by evidence of his NHL play.  We can't do that - yet - with Nylander.  We can state though, that Vey did really well at the A level, but his skills did not transfer.  This is why I compare Vey and Nylander.  Your criticism of JV is warranted and justified.  Your comparing him with WN is not valid.  IMHO

[The Lock]

As long as the boys are learning, that's all that matters. Virtanen will find his game at the NHL level at some point. Who's really to say he won't find it once he's back in the lineup? Who's also really to say that extra year in the minor's would help?

It's really one of those things where people can argue both sides, but there's nothing concrete to base it on. He's on a small AHL stint now. Once he's up, we'll see how he develops. He's not on the team out of a gift (despite what some people think), he's on this team because he worked his butt off to give Willy D a reason to keep him up here.

[Spotted Zebra]

9 minutes ago, Alflives said:

That's my point.  I think we agree.  If he was playing in the NHL we could make such judgements and they would have validity.  We don't know yet, because there is no NHL evidence.  With JV we can state from evidence of his actual NHL play that he looks to need development.  Any criticism of JV is warranted and validated by evidence of his NHL play.  We can't do that - yet - with Nylander.  We can state though, that Vey did really well at the A level, but his skills did not transfer.  This is why I compare Vey and Nylander.  Your criticism of JV is warranted and justified.  Your comparing him with WN is not valid.  IMHO

Good Job Alf!

You've come a long way from the Demko for 2016/2017 Starter movement a few months ago

[73 Percent]

3 minutes ago, The Lock said:

As long as the boys are learning, that's all that matters. Virtanen will find his game at the NHL level at some point. Who's really to say he won't find it once he's back in the lineup? Who's also really to say that extra year in the minor's would help?

It's really one of those things where people can argue both sides, but there's nothing concrete to base it on. He's on a small AHL stint now. Once he's up, we'll see how he develops. He's not on the team out of a gift (despite what some people think), he's on this team because he worked his butt off to give Willy D a reason to keep him up here.

No way he's on this team because of WD. You realize he's the coach right? I'm sure he has some say but at the end of the day benning has the say in roster movements.  They promised the fans that change was coming. This was it. Not because he's ready or he's worked his butt off. It's the nhl. Do you think shinkaruk worked any less hard? He's was gifted a spot due to hockey politics.  Similar to why corrado is playing tonight.  

[Spotted Zebra]

3 minutes ago, The Lock said:

As long as the boys are learning, that's all that matters. Virtanen will find his game at the NHL level at some point. Who's really to say he won't find it once he's back in the lineup? Who's also really to say that extra year in the minor's would help?

It's really one of those things where people can argue both sides, but there's nothing concrete to base it on. He's on a small AHL stint now. Once he's up, we'll see how he develops. He's not on the team out of a gift (despite what some people think), he's on this team because he worked his butt off to give Willy D a reason to keep him up here.

No.

From the moment the Canucks did their Summer player press conferences and had Jake sit in with the big boys, it was obvious that he was making the team. Benning has even gone on record the previous season, stating that he wanted Jake in the lineup. 

Now don't get me wrong, I agree that he did enough at the 9 game mark to warrant a spot in the lineup at the time of his 9 game benchmark, however something would have had to go DISASTROUSLY wrong, for him to have not made the team. 

[The Lock]

1 minute ago, Gooseberries said:

No way he's on this team because of WD. You realize he's the coach right? I'm sure he has some say but at the end of the day benning has the say in roster movements.  They promised the fans that change was coming. This was it. Not because he's ready or he's worked his butt off. It's the nhl. Do you think shinkaruk worked any less hard? He's was gifted a spot due to hockey politics.  Similar to why corrado is playing tonight.  

ZOMG NO WAY! WD IS THE COACH??????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1 ....Thanks for making me laugh at least. lol

Anyway, Benning's said in his interviews time and time again that Willy D making a lot of decisions on who stays up and who doesn't. If you don't believe me, listen to them. Listen to what Benning says whenever he gets asked a coaching question or who gets called up. Usually it's something along the lines of "that's Willy's department."

While I'm sure Benning and WD would be hopeful that Virtanen would make the team, Virtanen would have still needed to earn that spot. While he might not have been putting up points, he was making hits like crazy out there from the get go and working his butt off. Him, McCann, and Hutton, were clearly the ones out in front during pre-season. Gaunce was not far behind, but those 3 were great! It's just unfortunate that people forget pre-season already and the entire reason why these rookies are on the team to begin with.

[The Lock]

8 minutes ago, Spotted Zebra said:

No.

From the moment the Canucks did their Summer player press conferences and had Jake sit in with the big boys, it was obvious that he was making the team. Benning has even gone on record the previous season, stating that he wanted Jake in the lineup. 

Now don't get me wrong, I agree that he did enough at the 9 game mark to warrant a spot in the lineup at the time of his 9 game benchmark, however something would have had to go DISASTROUSLY wrong, for him to have not made the team. 

But he did earn that spot, and that's what I'm saying. It shouldn't matter whether he was penciled in or not from the beginning. He still would have needed to work his butt off. If anyone needs an example of them not going by what they had penciled in, look no further than Vey.

[Alflives]

9 minutes ago, Spotted Zebra said:

Good Job Alf!

You've come a long way from the Demko for 2016/2017 Starter movement a few months ago

It takes all us aliens some time to adjust to the lower O2 levels in this atmosphere.

[Canorth]

^ spit balling

1. Larkin

2.  Ekblad 

3. Draisaitl

*forgot about Rienhart*

4. Bennett

5. McCann

6. Demko

7. Ritchie 

8/9. Nylander/Virtanen

10. Ehlers

11. Dal Colle

 

Edited December 13, 2015 by Canorth

[Alflives]

15 minutes ago, The 5th Line said:

We seem to be at a cross road here, Alfy.  You're taking all of the fun out of the discussion.  I am not completely oblivious to the fact that Virtanen can possibly turn in to a more usefull player than WN in fact he could possibly turn in to a more value player than all players drafted ahead of him (although I clearly highly doubt that)

We are looking at it in different perspectives, the way Im looking at it is I'm creating a re draft.  Now in this re draft im looking at what Virtanen has shown in his draft +1 Junior year, his stint(s) with Utica and his time in the NHL and it has been not good IMHO and for some reason some posters here seem to disagree with me? 

Now I look at Nylanders stint in the AHL which actually has been quite remarkable and I also look at what I have read(I haven't seen him play out side some pre season NHL games(where he actually looked very good) and 1 world junior tournament game(which he dominated with forsling and I think got 3 points against Denmark or Switzerland? I can't remember).

The way you are looking at it is kind of like, some Mackenzie Stewart fan boy comes in here and tells me that he thinks Mackenzie Stewart is going to become a Jamie Benn' like player and I can't disagree with him because he hasn't played in the NHL yet.  Well that's no fun.

Now I will ask you if we were able to do a re draft right now who are you going to take at 6th overall  JV?  or WN?

Im not a professional but I am trying to track potential in players, particularily forwards.  With Jake, I don't see nearly as much potential as I do with William and I don't possibly see how anybody can disagree with that,  Again Im a die hard nucks fan so I hope JV can prove me wrong and I HATE the leafs with a passion so I hope Nylander fails miserably.  Is that mean to say about a 19 year old kid?  I dont care

Yes, taking into account what we know now, I agree with you.  I think Larkin would be the top of that draft, and McCann would be really high too.  Ekblad, Larkin, Bennett, McCann, Draisitle, and on from there.  Nylander could be in the six spot.  That's why we need to pick even higher, so there is less chance of mistakes.  I hate the Leafs too.  They are Mrs Alf's Favorite team.  She loves Kadri, and Nylander too.  Uggg.  

 

Something else you you and I agree with is we need to replace the Twins.  we need elite skill, and soon.

[Rush17]

12 minutes ago, Canorth said:

^ spit balling

1. Larkin

2.  Ekblad 

3. Draisaitl

4. Bennett

5. McCann

6. Demko

7. Ritchie 

8/9. Nylander/Virtanen

10. Ehlers

11. Dal Colle

 

I hope jakes dominates the WJC.  Returns to the lineup. See how he does give him 5-6 games if he doesn't catch fire send him down to Jr. and arrange a trade to the giants or another solid whl team.  Maybe ship him off to the royals :D.

Let him lite it up. learn from a good structured team where he can build confidence then we re-insert him next yr on the 3rd line.

 

just my 2cents.  I think Dal Colle will be up there with McCann and Demko imo..

Edited December 13, 2015 by Rush17

[Sean Monahan]

3 minutes ago, Alflives said:

Yes, taking into account what we know now, I agree with you.  I think Larkin would be the top of that draft, and McCann would be really high too.  Ekblad, Larkin, Bennett, McCann, Draisitle, and on from there.  Nylander could be in the six spot.  That's why we need to pick even higher, so there is less chance of mistakes.  I hate the Leafs too.  They are Mrs Alf's Favorite team.  She loves Kadri, and Nylander too.  Uggg.  

 

Something else you you and I agree with is we need to replace the Twins.  we need elite skill, and soon.

No no no, Ekblad still goes number one . He scored 39 points as an 18 year old d-man, I believe the most since Bobby Orr.

[Gstank29]

Ekbald is definitely number one

Larkin

Draisaitl

Bennett

Reinhart

Pastnerak

Virtanen

Nylander

Ehlers

Fabbri

McCann

and all the rest

Edited December 13, 2015 by Gstank29
Added Reinhart