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Jake Virtanen | #18 | RW


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2 minutes ago, Rush17 said:

A segment of the fan base being upset about his development. I guess i understand it if your just looking at the numbers.  But when you hear Travis Green his ahl coach now. (now nhl coach) publically rave about jakes development this season it's hard to ignore.  

 

Managment and Willie wanted jake to go down and focus on all the little aspects of his game. they told him the points are not what matter its about playing the game the right way. when he goes down to utica and completely remakes his game and gets glowing reviews by his coach.. i have a hard time not liking what i see.

 

the kid is only 20 years old. next to no power forward enters the league as a teenager and instantly puts up Nylanders numbers. expecting that and comparing his numbers to nylanders is obsurd. Jake is an entirely different type of player who brings an entirely different skillset to his respective team.  

 

nylander was an arrogant kid and im honestly glad he's not on our team. he is going to make toronto pay through their nose on his next contract extension.

While I wanted Nylander and Ehlers over Jake I don't make those comparisons because like you said, they're completely different players. You can compare him to a guy like Matt Tkachuk though who looked a lot better than Jake has so far. But I agree with you, he's young. This year is big for him though. If he's stagnant in his progression this year I think it kills his stock with our organization. 

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3 hours ago, Rush17 said:

Jake Virtanen is 20 years old!!! let me repeat that... 20 years old!!!!

 

anyone casting judgement on a 20 year old and calling him a bust or under developed player is an idiot.  I'd like to see how any of us would do in the scrutiny fishbowl that is bc.   ( hope that doesn't get me banned )

 

if you hate on jake. cast judgement on a 20 year old. or anything like that.  read the paragraph above.  i feel so bad for this kid. he is busting his balls to get in shape as a young adult. he can't even drink in the states yet!  come on people wake up and give your head a shake. you are passing judgement on jake as if he is a 23 year old zack kassian.  the sad part is more people came to kassians aid then the hometown 20 yr old from Vancouver. 

 

do we seriously have nothing else to talk about? i think we should compile a list of all the jake haters from this day forward so we can remind people how they once treated this kid.  i understand why some media pundits call a segment of our fans deplorables. show some humility for the kid.

he is only 20

and has demonstrated a lack of maturity both off the ice and on it

he seems to have settled a bit better towards the end of his recent time in utica

i say he will benefit from another 1/2 season down there at least

he needs a better base to his game and needs to think it a bit better as well

being on the farm and out of the vancouver fishbowl likely will help him more

then force feeding him on the parent club with many criticizing his every inexperienced error

he appears to be one young talent that is not yet ready for the nhl

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19 minutes ago, ashlynnbrookefan said:

While I wanted Nylander and Ehlers over Jake I don't make those comparisons because like you said, they're completely different players. You can compare him to a guy like Matt Tkachuk though who looked a lot better than Jake has so far. But I agree with you, he's young. This year is big for him though. If he's stagnant in his progression this year I think it kills his stock with our organization. 

Yeah its hard to qualify the development and contribution of rookies with different skillsets for sure.  I'm not sure Tkachuk deployment situation last year in calgary.  but I do recall jakes.  Jake largely got bottom 6 minutes and was asked to focus entirely on his defensive side of game so he wouldnt be a liability.  

 

i didnt pay close attention to Tkachuk this past season but i do recall seeing him playing with some of Calgary's better players on several occusations.  im not sure how often or if he got pp or any extra special treatment.  

 

all i know is jake had to earn his spot by being good defensively. and a side from jakes decent first season numbers in a primary bottom 6 defensive role he excelled in the defensive game based off of advanced stats. (corsi). which happened to be another strong suite this season.

 

i read somewhere im unsure of its accuracy but it said somewhere that when jake was on the ice utica had 3 shots on goal for every 2 against.  that shows a pretty quantifiable number even if his offensive stats didn't blow anyone way.  which as i previously mentioned wasn't the focus of his play this season (according to coaching/management - who seemed very happy with his progress this season).

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2 minutes ago, Rush17 said:

Yeah its hard to qualify the development and contribution of rookies with different skillsets for sure.  I'm not sure Tkachuk deployment situation last year in calgary.  but I do recall jakes.  Jake largely got bottom 6 minutes and was asked to focus entirely on his defensive side of game so he wouldnt be a liability.  

 

i didnt pay close attention to Tkachuk this past season but i do recall seeing him playing with some of Calgary's better players on several occusations.  im not sure how often or if he got pp or any extra special treatment.  

 

all i know is jake had to earn his spot by being good defensively. and a side from jakes decent first season numbers in a primary bottom 6 defensive role he excelled in the defensive game based off of advanced stats. (corsi). which happened to be another strong suite this season.

 

i read somewhere im unsure of its accuracy but it said somewhere that when jake was on the ice utica had 3 shots on goal for every 2 against.  that shows a pretty quantifiable number even if his offensive stats didn't blow anyone way.  which as i previously mentioned wasn't the focus of his play this season (according to coaching/management - who seemed very happy with his progress this season).

I also read that the other day too. That's a great post btw. Tkachuk was absolutely in a better position in the lineup with more opportunities but he definitely forced Calgarys hand in that decision, Jake could have done the same here. I'm not trying to argue against everything you say, I respect your posts and like that you put thought into them, I'm just finding the other side of the conversation. In the end I think we both want the same thing with all Canuck prospects. 

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28 minutes ago, coastal.view said:

he is only 20

and has demonstrated a lack of maturity both off the ice and on it

he seems to have settled a bit better towards the end of his recent time in utica

i say he will benefit from another 1/2 season down there at least

he needs a better base to his game and needs to think it a bit better as well

being on the farm and out of the vancouver fishbowl likely will help him more

then force feeding him on the parent club with many criticizing his every inexperienced error

he appears to be one young talent that is not yet ready for the nhl

immaturity in a young adult isn't uncommon even into the early 20's.  sure jake was a little immature and i would even argue a little stupid for questioning his nhl coach at the age of 19/20 but.. he is still a kid essentially and even though he may share some burden his immaturity is entirely out of his hands.  that in my opinion should of been better managed and watched by the coaching staff and managment.  clearly the year in Vancouver 2 years ago and the season in Utica last year has clearly helped him develop.

 

is jake perfect? or has he been? no. hes a kid i dont expect him too.  is jake more mature now? it looks like it.  will he be ready not only for the nhl rigors but all that comes with it in his hockey mad market?  im not sure. but what i do know is Travis Green has reached Jake Virtanen on some level and he appears to have grown a lot this past season and likely will in the off season.

 

grown not just in his game but in his life experience and maturity.  jake acted like he wanted to be precieved as mature. but you can spot that a mile away when someone tries to hard.  

 

i have high hopes for jake but its up to him to show up and show he can be a contributing member on and off the ice to his teammates.  i look forward to training camp!

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7 minutes ago, ashlynnbrookefan said:

I also read that the other day too. That's a great post btw. Tkachuk was absolutely in a better position in the lineup with more opportunities but he definitely forced Calgarys hand in that decision, Jake could have done the same here. I'm not trying to argue against everything you say, I respect your posts and like that you put thought into them, I'm just finding the other side of the conversation. In the end I think we both want the same thing with all Canuck prospects. 

I 100% agree with you.  I'm glad we can actively engaged with other passionate fans of our team in this form of disucssion.  I think its important we really question our statements when we are so heavily scrutinizing young players. i would just hate to see jakes career derailed due to the scrutiny he faces.  controversy is good for hardening a player. but there is a line between controversy and plain old pooping on someones head.  im not accusing you or anyone else of that. but we do see it from time to time.  even though it often starts as a joke or troll.

 

thanks for your thoughts and the additional info on Tkachuk.  i honestly am to often focused on Vancouver so intensely i often miss the rest of the story.

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1 hour ago, Diamonds said:

No one is personally attacking Jake. We have every right as fans to be disappointed with a players development, that doesn't mean that we are saying that they are a bad person and we are also allowed to be wrong.

 

Jake is a 6th overall pick, not a 6th round pick. I don't think anyone is saying he should already be an NHL superstar and if not then he's a bust. But what he has shown so far is disappointing. Yes, there are plenty of players who don't make the NHL until their mid 20's, but they also usually show more than Jake has in their draft+3 seasons, especially top 10 picks.

 

In fact, Jake has the lowest AHL ppg out of all top 10 picks since 2003 (who are forwards) in their draft+3/20-year-old seasons. The closest comparable is probably Zach Hamill who still put up 26 pts in 65 games (compared to Jake's 19 in 65). Even players like Alexandre Picard, Scott Glennie, and Nikita Filatov, who are pretty much consensus busts, fared better at the same age. I can accept the argument for Burmistrov being a comparable as well. And since you brought up Zack Kassian, he put up 26 pts in 30 games in the AHL in his draft+3 season.

 

Jake becoming a top six forward in the NHL at this point in time would not be the norm, but the exception. Yes he is only 20 and there is plenty of time for him to prove himself, but history is not in his favor. As a Canucks fan I have every hope that he will beat the odds and become a successful 2nd line NHL player for us but it is certainly not my expectation.

 

This coming season will probably be very telling in terms of his projection. Hopefully we some nice improvement over last season.

At this point in time, if Virtanen = Raffi Torres, I'll be ecstatic.

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1 minute ago, Rush17 said:

I 100% agree with you.  I'm glad we can actively engaged with other passionate fans of our team in this form of disucssion.  I think its important we really question our statements when we are so heavily scrutinizing young players. i would just hate to see jakes career derailed due to the scrutiny he faces.  controversy is good for hardening a player. but there is a line between controversy and plain old pooping on someones head.  im not accusing you or anyone else of that. but we do see it from time to time.  even though it often starts as a joke or troll.

 

thanks for your thoughts and the additional info on Tkachuk.  i honestly am to often focused on Vancouver so intensely i often miss the rest of the story.

Yeah I don't think the public scrutiny does any good for the kid, I just get why some people are upset and don't think they're totally wrong vocalizing it. It's not Jakes fault he was picked, I'm not mad at him for that, the only thing I'm upset with Jake on was his maturity level and fitness which tie together for me. If he really has broken through like many think than that's great, and I will gladly eat crow. This is an exciting time to be a Canuck fan though, regardless of where you stand on Jake, we have many intriguing prospects in the pipeline for probably the first time. 

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On ‎2017‎-‎07‎-‎14 at 7:32 AM, Rob_Zepp said:

There are no guarantees, but one player that Virtanen might emulate is David Backes, who scored 10-13-23 in 49 gp in his rookie season. For Backes though, that was at the age of 22/23, 5 years after he was drafted. He was fully a man and had spent his time post draft developing physically and mentally - just like Virtanen may get to - difference is people are expecting it NOW versus when he will be same as Backes was in his rookie year which Virtanen won't be for 2 more years.   When Backes broke out, it was the season he turned 25 and then he has been a pretty strong and consistent to 6 presence ever since.   

 

Again, no guarantees but yet another example of a player someone could have written off far too early.

The NHL is littered with these examples, including players from our own team.

 

Eg,....

 

Markus Naslund....drafted high in 1991. Pitts gave up on him 5yrs after he was drafted and traded him. He didn't break out until 1998/99. 8years after he was drafted.

Todd Bertuzzi....drafted in 1st rnd in '93. wasn't until 2001 when he finally discovered his scoring touch

 

Andrew Ladd...drafted 4th overall in '04. wasn't until '09 when he fully embraced his role as an effective 3rd liner. later traded a few years later and started racking up the goals in '13/'14...10yrs after he was drafted

 

David Backes is another great example

 

for the 1000th time, just because a player is drafted in the top 10, doesn't mean they SHOULD'VE been drafted at that spot. Perhaps that's on the scouting staff, but we are here and now. The thing with Jake was he was ranked the fastest skater in the draft, could score, hit and drive the net. Basically the very type of player we DIDNT have.

 

Jake for his part didnt do himself any favors by demonstrating his immaturity and not taking his career more seriously. He, like Bo, played their D+1 year back in Junior and eventually made their team out of the following training camp. Jake for the most part had somewhat a decent rookie year. Bo, also had a good rookie season while being shackled to the 4th line but didn't complain or whine. He was ready to burst thru his glass ceiling but WD wouldn't have it and I think that was good of WD to do that.

Where Jake shot himself in the foot was his going to the Beiber concert and hangin with the Beibs while guys like Bo and Hutton are studying film or power skating or generally thinking of ways to improve their game. Everytime a camera was on Jake he was always kinda acting like a goof, mocking other guys out loud or just being loud instead of just shuttin TFU and concentrating....like Bo would be doing. Tony Gallagher even pointed it out a few times on TSN1040 morning show on a few occasions.  Jake had his WJC moment and came back home the scapegoat of the nation. I believe Benning was about to send him back to junior but Willie vouched and insisted he stay and get thrown into the mix as a show of the coach having his back. That turned out to be a mistake on Willies part and Jake was dogging it during games and practices in the last pasts of the '16 season and was also evidenced by the Sedins calling Jake/Jared out for this. When it came to the off-season, Trevor spoke up in saying he personally seen Jake working out everyday but come training camp and the start of the season, it was reported and well documented that Jake wasn't in the greatest shape.

 

The last nail in the coffin was when Jake went whining and crying to the media about playing time and throwing the coach under the bus.

"Enjoy Utica kid....don't forget your STUFF."

 

I work in Abbotsford and a month ago, I was always running into him at the same time at the same gas station, 7-11 on Immel Rd., and I swear the guy was dripping in sweat and his little buddy was in worse shape. His Jeep Cherokee is super bad ass too by the way. He seems humbled and working hard to finally prove himself. Ppl mocked him for the inline skating but I cant see why that wouldn't be a bad thing.

 

I still have high hopes for Jake and hope he CAN and WILL become useful. seeing his late season chemistry with a skilled guy like Goldobin is very encouraging. Both love to skate and make plays at a high level. Another year of Utica with a few tasty call-ups should do the trick.

 

I'm hoping and can see Burmistrov getting sent down

 

Goldobin-Burmistrov-Virtanen     this could be a great line

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54 minutes ago, ashlynnbrookefan said:

Yeah I don't think the public scrutiny does any good for the kid, I just get why some people are upset and don't think they're totally wrong vocalizing it. It's not Jakes fault he was picked, I'm not mad at him for that, the only thing I'm upset with Jake on was his maturity level and fitness which tie together for me. If he really has broken through like many think than that's great, and I will gladly eat crow. This is an exciting time to be a Canuck fan though, regardless of where you stand on Jake, we have many intriguing prospects in the pipeline for probably the first time. 

yeah if only gillis had stockpiled players this good! aw well we got a fun era ahead and i am very excited about some of our up and coming youngsters! 

 

Pettersson, Juolevi, Demko, Boeser, even Dahlen! so much raw talent on the rise.

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5 hours ago, Rush17 said:

Jake Virtanen is 20 years old!!! let me repeat that... 20 years old!!!!

 

anyone casting judgement on a 20 year old and calling him a bust or under developed player is an idiot.  I'd like to see how any of us would do in the scrutiny fishbowl that is bc.   ( hope that doesn't get me banned )

 

That Nylander kid is doing pretty well in the scrutiny fishbowl that is Toronto 

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8 hours ago, Rush17 said:

Jake Virtanen is 20 years old!!! let me repeat that... 20 years old!!!!

 

anyone casting judgement on a 20 year old and calling him a bust or under developed player is an idiot.  I'd like to see how any of us would do in the scrutiny fishbowl that is bc.   ( hope that doesn't get me banned )

 

if you hate on jake. cast judgement on a 20 year old. or anything like that.  read the paragraph above.  i feel so bad for this kid. he is busting his balls to get in shape as a young adult. he can't even drink in the states yet!  come on people wake up and give your head a shake. you are passing judgement on jake as if he is a 23 year old zack kassian.  the sad part is more people came to kassians aid then the hometown 20 yr old from Vancouver. 

 

do we seriously have nothing else to talk about? i think we should compile a list of all the jake haters from this day forward so we can remind people how they once treated this kid.  i understand why some media pundits call a segment of our fans deplorables. show some humility for the kid.

This is up-vote fishing at its finest.  

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18 hours ago, Hutton Wink said:

 

Dave Pratt acolyte.  Whenever he states his opinions, he tags them with "the fact is" or "there's no question" or "there's no doubt about it", as if saying that magically transforms his opinions into facts.

 

"The fact is, Jake Virtanen is a sure-fire superstar, there's simply no question.  No doubt about it, he'll be a 100-point first-team allstar."  So easy to declare reality, by simply inventing it!  Amazing how that works.

I actually found a good quote in a picture, but it's rather large so I'll just post it here:

 

"You are completely entitled to opinions that are not supported by evidence. But the moment you spread that opinion as fact, you are a liar. And if you spread is as fact knowing it is not supported by evidence, you are both a liar and a fraud." Occam's Barber

 

It's unfortunate, but I can think of a few people on this board that could use a little wisdom from that quote....

Edited by The Lock
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14 hours ago, missioncanucksfan said:

The NHL is littered with these examples, including players from our own team.

 

Eg,....

 

Markus Naslund....drafted high in 1991. Pitts gave up on him 5yrs after he was drafted and traded him. He didn't break out until 1998/99. 8years after he was drafted.

Todd Bertuzzi....drafted in 1st rnd in '93. wasn't until 2001 when he finally discovered his scoring touch

 

Andrew Ladd...drafted 4th overall in '04. wasn't until '09 when he fully embraced his role as an effective 3rd liner. later traded a few years later and started racking up the goals in '13/'14...10yrs after he was drafted

 

David Backes is another great example

 

for the 1000th time, just because a player is drafted in the top 10, doesn't mean they SHOULD'VE been drafted at that spot. Perhaps that's on the scouting staff, but we are here and now. The thing with Jake was he was ranked the fastest skater in the draft, could score, hit and drive the net. Basically the very type of player we DIDNT have.

 

Jake for his part didnt do himself any favors by demonstrating his immaturity and not taking his career more seriously. He, like Bo, played their D+1 year back in Junior and eventually made their team out of the following training camp. Jake for the most part had somewhat a decent rookie year. Bo, also had a good rookie season while being shackled to the 4th line but didn't complain or whine. He was ready to burst thru his glass ceiling but WD wouldn't have it and I think that was good of WD to do that.

Where Jake shot himself in the foot was his going to the Beiber concert and hangin with the Beibs while guys like Bo and Hutton are studying film or power skating or generally thinking of ways to improve their game. Everytime a camera was on Jake he was always kinda acting like a goof, mocking other guys out loud or just being loud instead of just shuttin TFU and concentrating....like Bo would be doing. Tony Gallagher even pointed it out a few times on TSN1040 morning show on a few occasions.  Jake had his WJC moment and came back home the scapegoat of the nation. I believe Benning was about to send him back to junior but Willie vouched and insisted he stay and get thrown into the mix as a show of the coach having his back. That turned out to be a mistake on Willies part and Jake was dogging it during games and practices in the last pasts of the '16 season and was also evidenced by the Sedins calling Jake/Jared out for this. When it came to the off-season, Trevor spoke up in saying he personally seen Jake working out everyday but come training camp and the start of the season, it was reported and well documented that Jake wasn't in the greatest shape.

 

The last nail in the coffin was when Jake went whining and crying to the media about playing time and throwing the coach under the bus.

"Enjoy Utica kid....don't forget your STUFF."

 

I work in Abbotsford and a month ago, I was always running into him at the same time at the same gas station, 7-11 on Immel Rd., and I swear the guy was dripping in sweat and his little buddy was in worse shape. His Jeep Cherokee is super bad ass too by the way. He seems humbled and working hard to finally prove himself. Ppl mocked him for the inline skating but I cant see why that wouldn't be a bad thing.

 

I still have high hopes for Jake and hope he CAN and WILL become useful. seeing his late season chemistry with a skilled guy like Goldobin is very encouraging. Both love to skate and make plays at a high level. Another year of Utica with a few tasty call-ups should do the trick.

 

I'm hoping and can see Burmistrov getting sent down

 

Goldobin-Burmistrov-Virtanen     this could be a great line

That is certainly not how I saw it. Maybe you could back up your claim he was dogging it from the time he got back from the WJC.

 

I actually thought Jake played his best hockey from coming back from WJC to the end of the season. He was getting good TOI figures too and we all know Willie didn't reward players who were not giving him 100%

 

U2B4xdl.png

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1 hour ago, alfstonker said:

That is certainly not how I saw it. Maybe you could back up your claim he was dogging it from the time he got back from the WJC.

 

I actually thought Jake played his best hockey from coming back from WJC to the end of the season. He was getting good TOI figures too and we all know Willie didn't reward players who were not giving him 100%

 

U2B4xdl.png

I did say that Willie got behind him and threw him right back into the line-up. For the first bit he DID do good but as the Canucks fell to the basement in the standings, guys like Jake and Jared were caught doggin it. Sedins called them out in The Province. Sure they didn't name names but we knew who they was referring to.

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45 minutes ago, missioncanucksfan said:

I did say that Willie got behind him and threw him right back into the line-up. For the first bit he DID do good but as the Canucks fell to the basement in the standings, guys like Jake and Jared were caught doggin it. Sedins called them out in The Province. Sure they didn't name names but we knew who they was referring to.

The Sedins are too fond of making veiled criticisms imo. If they truly thought that, they should have addressed it in the room and not go blabbing to the media. How long have they lived here and yet they seem to think giving stuff to the media will lead to anything good. They should have done more to address their own shortcomings.

 

I watched every game, the whole of every game and I saw no dogging it. So much so that prior to the WJC I was all for sending both players back to Utica the following season but by the end of the season I was for bring both back. That was until Jake turned up looking like rolly - polly man and Jared was dealt.

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1 hour ago, alfstonker said:

The Sedins are too fond of making veiled criticisms imo. If they truly thought that, they should have addressed it in the room and not go blabbing to the media. How long have they lived here and yet they seem to think giving stuff to the media will lead to anything good. They should have done more to address their own shortcomings.

 

I watched every game, the whole of every game and I saw no dogging it. So much so that prior to the WJC I was all for sending both players back to Utica the following season but by the end of the season I was for bring both back. That was until Jake turned up looking like rolly - polly man and Jared was dealt.

Don't get me wrong...I'm a huge JV fan. Talked to him a few times and he seems like a kid that knows he got the message and is working his arse off to prove the doubters wrong. 

I still think one more year in Utica getting top/hard minutes (pp,pk,5v5) under a "development coach" while avoiding what is supposed to be a dog food season will be best for him.

He can finally play with more skilled players too if guys like Rodin, Goldobin, Burmistrov, Chaput and possibly Dahlin, are likely to be on the team

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27 minutes ago, missioncanucksfan said:

Don't get me wrong...I'm a huge JV fan. Talked to him a few times and he seems like a kid that knows he got the message and is working his arse off to prove the doubters wrong. 

I still think one more year in Utica getting top/hard minutes (pp,pk,5v5) under a "development coach" while avoiding what is supposed to be a dog food season will be best for him.

He can finally play with more skilled players too if guys like Rodin, Goldobin, Burmistrov, Chaput and possibly Dahlin, are likely to be on the team

Let's hope you are right. If you are not then we are now equipping ourselves with so many alternatives, Jake may eventually fall through the cracks. Pro hockey is a tough business and if you are not prepared to pay the price there are others queuing up behind, desperate to pay.

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1 hour ago, alfstonker said:

Let's hope you are right. If you are not then we are now equipping ourselves with so many alternatives, Jake may eventually fall through the cracks. Pro hockey is a tough business and if you are not prepared to pay the price there are others queuing up behind, desperate to pay.

Well ya...Jake was drafted 4 years ago. Since then we have amassed that many more prospects. Gadjovich being a good comparable. 

Eventually tho...this tends to be on Jake to finally get his collective "stuff" together and start being a noticable difference. Work habits, talents, dedication, IQ, etc....the "tool box full of tools". Prove he was worthy of that 6th pick. 

 

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