Jake Virtanen | #18 | RW

[Rob_Zepp]

12 minutes ago, Ichiban604 said:

Okay. Hopefully he improved. Let's see

Uh,  pretty much what I've been saying.   He is just barely out of his teens and his soon to be NHL coach raved about his second half of the year in AHL.   My point, why write a guy with that size, speed, edge and overall "push forward" game before he even has a chance to get going?   Guys like him seem to take longer.   Would have thought Vancouver would have learned lesson a few times both pro and con on power forwards (Neely and Bertuzzi to name two obvious examples - also both first rounders, 9th and 23rd overall, respectively).    Clearly he may never get to be half the player either of those were or even become an NHL regular - but at this stage, and progress made last year, things certainly don't look bad for him.  

[Ichiban604]

2 hours ago, Rob_Zepp said:

Uh,  pretty much what I've been saying.   He is just barely out of his teens and his soon to be NHL coach raved about his second half of the year in AHL.   My point, why write a guy with that size, speed, edge and overall "push forward" game before he even has a chance to get going?   Guys like him seem to take longer.   Would have thought Vancouver would have learned lesson a few times both pro and con on power forwards (Neely and Bertuzzi to name two obvious examples - also both first rounders, 9th and 23rd overall, respectively).    Clearly he may never get to be half the player either of those were or even become an NHL regular - but at this stage, and progress made last year, things certainly don't look bad for him.  

Okay. My point is we could have drafted immediate help then wait and hope to see if he develops. So best of luck to him. every Nucks fans want their prospect to work out. So hopefully he had a good summer and we will see.

[MoneypuckOverlord]

LOl the idiots on hfboards.com canucks fans and non Canucks fans have written him off already.  Dude is only 20 years old.

 

love it.  Lets see what he does.  You call yourselfs Canucks fans yet want to see him fail? like wtf is that.

[Erik Karlsson]

43 minutes ago, MoneypuckOverlord said:

LOl the idiots on hfboards.com canucks fans and non Canucks fans have written him off already.  Dude is only 20 years old.

 

love it.  Lets see what he does.  You call yourselfs Canucks fans yet want to see him fail? like wtf is that.

Yeah I think he'll be a 40 point guy minimum. That with his speed and hitting ability is well worth the pick imo. Can find players like Ehlers and Nylander every draft, but not too many players similiar to Virtanen. He's one of the most powerful hitters I've seen and has elite speed and shot power. Has to get his accuracy back, but that will come while he gains more confidence.

[DeNiro]

1 hour ago, MoneypuckOverlord said:

LOl the idiots on hfboards.com canucks fans and non Canucks fans have written him off already.  Dude is only 20 years old.

 

love it.  Lets see what he does.  You call yourselfs Canucks fans yet want to see him fail? like wtf is that.

As long as Ehlers and Nylander are better it will be a bad pick in their minds no matter what he does.

 

They don't seem to realize that just because he might not end up putting up big point totals, doesn't mean he can't contribute to games in other meaningful ways.

 

Still a long path of development ahead for him. His future is far from being written. 

[MoneypuckOverlord]

Just now, DeNiro said:

As long as Ehlers and Nylander are better it will be a bad pick in their minds no matter what he does.

 

They don't seem to realize that just because he might not end up putting up big point totals, doesn't mean he can't contribute to games in other meaningful ways.

 

Still a long path of development ahead for him. His future is far from being written. 

totally understand that.  I also acknowledge that in hindsight Virtanen wasn't the right pick either, but no need for trashing him senselessly meanwhile Haydn Fleur and Micael Dal Cole (who even Islanders fans have written off for being a career tier 2 guy) hasn't even played a single NHL game.

 

hope Virtanen does do well.  Big body bangers like him thrive in playoff matches.

 

 

[DeNiro]

16 minutes ago, MoneypuckOverlord said:

totally understand that.  I also acknowledge that in hindsight Virtanen wasn't the right pick either, but no need for trashing him senselessly meanwhile Haydn Fleur and Micael Dal Cole (who even Islanders fans have written off for being a career tier 2 guy) hasn't even played a single NHL game.

 

hope Virtanen does do well.  Big body bangers like him thrive in playoff matches.

 

 

Just seems like in today's NHL everyone wants instant gratification. Like if a player isn't in the NHL by 21 they're a bust.

 

Young players are more and more NHL ready nowadays due to training, but people have to remember these are still very young men who are going to develop physically and mentally at their own pace. Think back when you were 20 if you could handle the pressures of being a pro.

 

Even some of our best prospects through the years didn't enter the NHL till 22 or later. Yet we expect Virtanen, who clearly needed development time from the start, to just jump straight in and start sniping and bowling over full grown men? It's not realistic. 

 

With him I think it's a maturity thing. How bad he wants to be a pro will determine how far he goes. He needs to start giving his all to training and start ignoring all the off ice distractions that will hold him back. If he can do that he's got a ton of potential to be an impact player still.

Edited July 13, 2017 by DeNiro

[MJDDawg]

27 minutes ago, DeNiro said:

Just seems like in today's NHL everyone wants instant gratification. Like if a player isn't in the NHL by 21 they're a bust.

 

Young players are more and more NHL ready nowadays due to training, but people have to remember these are still very young men who are going to develop physically and mentally at their own pace. Think back when you were 20 if you could handle the pressures of being a pro.

 

Even some of our best prospects through the years didn't enter the NHL till 22 or later. Yet we expect Virtanen, who clearly needed development time from the start, to just jump straight in and start sniping and bowling over full grown men? It's not realistic. 

 

With him I think it's a maturity thing. How bad he wants to be a pro will determine how far he goes. He needs to start giving his all to training and start ignoring all the off ice distractions that will hold him back. If he can do that he's got a ton of potential to be an impact player still.

I really don't understand the mentality that many have that you're a bust if you haven't made it by the age of 20 or 21.

 

While many believe the "Detroit model" is no longer valid, one only has to look at the two-time reigning Cup champ Penguins and their trio of "rookies" that weren't merely bystanders in their last two Cups but were major factors in both Cup wins.

 

Matt Murray - 23 years old 

Bryan Rust - 25 years old

Jake Guentzel - 22 years old

 

Virt is still 20 so maybe he's not the problem, but rather people's expectations of what he or other rookies should be at a young age should be tempered.

 

 

Edited July 13, 2017 by MJDDawg

[Dral]

6 minutes ago, MJDDawg said:

I really don't understand the mentality that many have that you're a bust if you haven't made it by the age of 20 or 21.

 

While many don't believe the "Detroit model" is no longer valid, one only has to look at the two-time reigning Cup champ Penguins and their trio of "rookies" that weren't merely bystanders in their last two Cups but were major factors in both Cup wins.

 

Matt Murray - 23 years old 

Bryan Rust - 25 years old

Jake Guentzel - 22 years old

 

Virt is still 20 so maybe he's not the problem, but rather people's expectations of what he or other rookies should be at a young age should be tempered.

 

 

"prospects need to developed properly"

 

*doesn't make NHL in first year*

 

"bust!"

[dpn1]

On 7/11/2017 at 2:07 PM, NaveJoseph said:

Goldobin looked good with Jake in the few games they played together in Utica. 
Although I really like Boeser with Horvat, and see that as a pair moving forward. 

Brock on RW, Bo C, and Jake on LW would work.  Jake is better on his left in my opinion.  Theycould have a set-up guy though.

[Nave]

2 hours ago, dpn1 said:

Brock on RW, Bo C, and Jake on LW would work.  Jake is better on his left in my opinion.  Theycould have a set-up guy though.

That's what I was thinking. Maybe Virtanen - Gagner - Goldobin would work too, so Baertschi - Horvat - Boeser could be our first line. 

[dpn1]

23 minutes ago, NaveJoseph said:

That's what I was thinking. Maybe Virtanen - Gagner - Goldobin would work too, so Baertschi - Horvat - Boeser could be our first line. 

That actually sounds better.  I think Goldy & Gagner are both playmakers.  I also think Gagner will be the 2C.

[kanucks25]

On 7/9/2017 at 2:22 PM, Rob_Zepp said:

VERY few power forwards reach NHL readiness until they are 22 or 23.

 

No one said "concussed"....but something that removes that smug look would be nice.   Just as a bit of payback for the career altering hit on Daniel Sedin delivered by the cheap shot artist on Hawks blue line.

 

You said you want him sent into "la-la land for a few months... so that Chicago doesn't have their $8 million 58 point guy around for a season or so." Please don't try to back-track and claim a concussion is not exactly what you were implying.

 

 

On 7/9/2017 at 2:22 PM, Rob_Zepp said:

VERY few power forwards reach NHL readiness until they are 22 or 23.

Source?

 

On 7/9/2017 at 5:02 PM, The Lock said:

Well the bolded's actually your opinion. "Dissapointment" is going to be a matter of perspective and forcing your opinion on others is falsely making you think others are delusional.

On 7/10/2017 at 5:08 PM, The Lock said:

just the frame with no substance.

Except it's not really opinion, it's more like fact. Look at Virtanen's post-draft numbers and show me historical precedence that proves he's not already deep into bust territory. His lack of development is extremely concerning, players don't produce this badly and magically turn it around often. If you want to have your head in the sand, that's fine, I guess.

 

On 7/10/2017 at 0:05 AM, CoolCanucklehead said:

So true. People seem to forget guys like Bertuzzi, Primeau, Kreider, Benn, Otto, Stevens, LeClair, Neely, etc.

Sorry but this is complete garbage. Go to the hockeyDBs of all these players and you'll see that most had proper development curves that led into their primes. Most of them were already putting up decent numbers in the NHL at Virtanen's current age.

 

[PuckYa]

1 hour ago, kanucks25 said:

On 7/10/2017 at 0:05 AM, CoolCanucklehead said:

So true. People seem to forget guys like Bertuzzi, Primeau, Kreider, Benn, Otto, Stevens, LeClair, Neely, etc.

 

Sorry but this is complete garbage. Go to the hockeyDBs of all these players and you'll see that most had proper development curves that led into their primes. Most of them were already putting up decent numbers in the NHL at Virtanen's current age.

Complete garbage?

hockeydb done just for you. 

 

Most of them were already putting up decent numbers in the NHL at Virtanen's current age.?

REALLY. 

 

 

 

Bertuzzi - Born 1975. Never showed anything in NHL until 1999/2000. (25 YEAR OLD) 

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php?pid=369

 

Primeau - Born 1971. Never showed anything in NHL until 1993/1994. (23 YEARS OLD) 

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php?pid=725

 

Kreider - Born 1991. Never showed anything in NHL until 2013/2014. (23 YEARS OLD)  

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php?pid=120939

 

Otto - Born 1961. Never showed anything in NHL until 1985/1986. (25 YEARS OLD)  

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php?pid=4095

 

Stevens - Born 1965. Never showed anything in NHL until 1989/1990. (25 YEARS OLD) 

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php?pid=5177

 

LeClair - Born 1969. Never showed anything in NHL until 1992/1993. (24 YEARS OLD) 

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php?pid=3036

 

 

 

Virtanen Born 1996. ONLY 20 YEARS OLD. 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 13, 2017 by CoolCanucklehead

[kanucks25]

1 hour ago, CoolCanucklehead said:

Complete garbage?

hockeydb done just for you. 

 

Most of them were already putting up decent numbers in the NHL at Virtanen's current age.?

REALLY. 

 

Bertuzzi: improvement D+1 year, improvement D+2 year, over 0.5 PP in the NHL in D+3.

 

Primeau: entered NHL right after being drafted, took a step every year in his first 5 season.

 

Kreider: decent production for a rookie in the AHL coming out of college, took a step into the NHL the next year, improved on those numbers the year after that.

 

Otto: first pro year at around age 23/24, about the same PPG throughout his first 5 seasons. "Never showed anything in the NHL before 85/86"? Maybe 'cause he only played 17 freakin' games in the NHL up until that point. This one is tough to use as a comparison because we don't see his pre-NHL development.

 

Stevens: straight into the NHL after college, improvement every season.

 

Leclair: straight into the NHL after college, improvement in his 2nd season, 3rd season stagnation and but then took another step.

 

Benn: improvement every season post-draft

 

Do you see the development path most players that end up being successful take? It's not just age, it's production along the way at any level. Now not all players have this neat, linear, upward trajectory but for the most part, players build on their performance from the previous year, leading towards their prime. A player's numbers might regress or pause for one year in there (like Leclair in his 3rd NHL season) but usually it's not as drastic as Virtanen's regression. So now let's compare Virtanen's path:

 

Virtanen: Disappointing D+1 year (very, very slight improvement, usually you wanna see a bigger jump), decent rookie season in NHL in D+2 year, step back in D+3 year as he's demoted to the AHL and barely outproduced his NHL numbers from the year prior. So even if you want to consider his 13 points in 55 games in his first NHL season a success, that's still two disappointing seasons in his first three post-draft seasons.

 

Neely is probably the best comparison (still not accurate, but probably the closest) because he too had a disappointing D+3 season (not as disappointing as Virtanen's, though), and obviously that was too early to give up on him because he broke out right after. I acknowledge he's only 20, and still has time to turn it around, there is no doubt about that.

 

However, again, anybody who thinks Virtanen's development so far has not been concerning is again, simply delusional or just too big of a homer. If he turns it around and becomes even half the player he was drafted to be, I'll be ecstatic, but I'm not expecting much right now.

Edited July 13, 2017 by kanucks25

[Dekey Pete]

17 hours ago, NaveJoseph said:

I kind of think he'll make the team ahead of Dorsett. Having to get your neck fused just sounds so bad. 

Makes me cringe just thinking about that surgery.  I liked Dorsett too, feel bad for him.

[Rush17]

14 hours ago, Rob_Zepp said:

Uh,  pretty much what I've been saying.   He is just barely out of his teens and his soon to be NHL coach raved about his second half of the year in AHL.   My point, why write a guy with that size, speed, edge and overall "push forward" game before he even has a chance to get going?   Guys like him seem to take longer.   Would have thought Vancouver would have learned lesson a few times both pro and con on power forwards (Neely and Bertuzzi to name two obvious examples - also both first rounders, 9th and 23rd overall, respectively).    Clearly he may never get to be half the player either of those were or even become an NHL regular - but at this stage, and progress made last year, things certainly don't look bad for him.  

Question: Are you saying this because you want to fit in or is this your actual thought?  Jake not being half the player of those to is kind of a bold statement.  

 

Jake has 1 aspect of his name that both cam and todd lacked. that explosive high speed skating.  saying he may not even be an nhl regular at this age is a very harsh criticism.  we all knew once jake was drafted his maturity was not fully developed.  

 

i think the jake we have seen this off season and into next year will be the first year we see jake as a mature adult hockey player. he was a kid 2 years ago and he was a kid last year if you ask me. jake looks like a man now. i have high hopes and expectations for jake this season.

[Rob_Zepp]

7 hours ago, kanucks25 said:

You said you want him sent into "la-la land for a few months... so that Chicago doesn't have their $8 million 58 point guy around for a season or so." Please don't try to back-track and claim a concussion is not exactly what you were implying.

 

 

Source?

 

Except it's not really opinion, it's more like fact. Look at Virtanen's post-draft numbers and show me historical precedence that proves he's not already deep into bust territory. His lack of development is extremely concerning, players don't produce this badly and magically turn it around often. If you want to have your head in the sand, that's fine, I guess.

 

Sorry but this is complete garbage. Go to the hockeyDBs of all these players and you'll see that most had proper development curves that led into their primes. Most of them were already putting up decent numbers in the NHL at Virtanen's current age.

 

Yup, a nice dose of karma would be good.   Let's just say he gets a rash that doesn't impact his life at all but makes him give up hockey while Hawks cannot deal with CAP.   That would be nice karma.

 

Source is the history of the NHL and this position for players.    Many  have noted Bertuzzi and Neely but those are too obvious, I can list probably 30 others from just past 10 years.

 

You seem convinced and will not accept facts or even analogues so why bother.   You clearly don't think this player is going to amount to anything and your passion for his failure is obvious.    I don't share your opinion.   Apparently that makes an alternative opinion "total garbage" and "delusional".  Apparently even if his own coach from AHL who talked about his progress, and underlying numbers showed it, is delusional too.   IF his camp this coming year is outstanding and he has the start of a breakthrough 20-23 year old stretch (I figure he will need about three years) you will deny any of that exists too as a delusion one must surmise.

 

Go back to cheering for a team that deliberately injured Daniel Sedin.   It seems to suit you.

Edited July 13, 2017 by Rob_Zepp

[kanucks25]

1 minute ago, Rob_Zepp said:

Source is the history of the NHL and this position for players.    Many  have noted Bertuzzi and Neely but those are too obvious, I can list probably 30 others from just past 10 years.

 

You seem convinced and will not accept facts or even analogues so why bother.  

Maybe you should check the facts one post above yours.

 

1 minute ago, Rob_Zepp said:

You seem convinced and will not accept facts or even analogues so why bother.   You clearly don't think this player is going to amount to anything and your passion for his failure is obvious.    I don't share your opinion.   Apparently that makes an alternative opinion "total garbage" and even if his own coach from AHL talked about his progress, and underlying numbers showed it, and even if his camp this coming year is outstanding and he has the start of a breakthrough 20-23 year old stretch (I figure he will need about three years) you will deny it exists.

Okay, except I said:

 

On 7/9/2017 at 3:31 AM, kanucks25 said:

But, just because I'm a Canucks fan, I'm going to be a homer and be hopeful he somehow turns it around

 

4 hours ago, kanucks25 said:

If he turns it around and becomes even half the player he was drafted to be, I'll be ecstatic

Keep making things up if that makes you happy, I guess.

[Rob_Zepp]

4 hours ago, kanucks25 said:

 

Bertuzzi: improvement D+1 year, improvement D+2 year, over 0.5 PP in the NHL in D+3.

 

Primeau: entered NHL right after being drafted, took a step every year in his first 5 season.

 

Kreider: decent production for a rookie in the AHL coming out of college, took a step into the NHL the next year, improved on those numbers the year after that.

 

Otto: first pro year at around age 23/24, about the same PPG throughout his first 5 seasons. "Never showed anything in the NHL before 85/86"? Maybe 'cause he only played 17 freakin' games in the NHL up until that point. This one is tough to use as a comparison because we don't see his pre-NHL development.

 

Stevens: straight into the NHL after college, improvement every season.

 

Leclair: straight into the NHL after college, improvement in his 2nd season, 3rd season stagnation and but then took another step.

 

Benn: improvement every season post-draft

 

Do you see the development path most players that end up being successful take? It's not just age, it's production along the way at any level. Now not all players have this neat, linear, upward trajectory but for the most part, players build on their performance from the previous year, leading towards their prime. A player's numbers might regress or pause for one year in there (like Leclair in his 3rd NHL season) but usually it's not as drastic as Virtanen's regression. So now let's compare Virtanen's path:

 

Virtanen: Disappointing D+1 year (very, very slight improvement, usually you wanna see a bigger jump), decent rookie season in NHL in D+2 year, step back in D+3 year as he's demoted to the AHL and barely outproduced his NHL numbers from the year prior. So even if you want to consider his 13 points in 55 games in his first NHL season a success, that's still two disappointing seasons in his first three post-draft seasons.

 

Neely is probably the best comparison (still not accurate, but probably the closest) because he too had a disappointing D+3 season (not as disappointing as Virtanen's, though), and obviously that was too early to give up on him because he broke out right after. I acknowledge he's only 20, and still has time to turn it around, there is no doubt about that.

 

However, again, anybody who thinks Virtanen's development so far has not been concerning is again, simply delusional or just too big of a homer. If he turns it around and becomes even half the player he was drafted to be, I'll be ecstatic, but I'm not expecting much right now.

You seem to fixate on points - good for you.    He has not "regressed" as he is developing.   I suspect in your life, everything is linear.   A professional athlete that goes from being a teenager dominating to living on his own, having decent early success and then having to adjust to challenges is somehow not fitting into your world.   I would rather focus on what his actual coach reported, on the play I watched of him in latter half of last year and have strong indication of how good his game looks and how far it has come as he entered the NHL without a firm grasp of the D end of the rink or how to better time his physical play.

 

This seems very personal to you - your dislike of this player having great potential and simply not having a development path aligned with your latest video game or your own expectation of him.   Your choice.   However, to label factual progress and clearly a different player in terms of physical training commitment as a "bust" and those who see that potential in him as "delusional" may well be an opinion but it sure seems to come with a bizarre agenda - but it may match perfectly your signature picture as you are clearly happy antagonizing the majority of the general fan base who would come to discuss hockey here.   Keep at it, entertaining it is.