Jake Virtanen | #18 | RW

[Rob_Zepp]

4 minutes ago, kanucks25 said:

Maybe you should check the facts one post above yours.

 

Okay, except I said:

 

 

Keep making things up if that makes you happy, I guess.

I will.   It clearly bothers you greatly so thanks for added incentive!   

 

I do check facts.   I actually do know hockey and I actually have been "a prospect" and have a clue that leads to much  of my perspective.   I have always been curious about fans who view players are robots who if they don't produce points immediately and/or don't all develop at same pace are labeled "failures".  Never understood those fans as I often wondered what failure in their own lives led them to such disdain for others who have challenges and try to succeed?    

[Rob_Zepp]

1 hour ago, Rush17 said:

Question: Are you saying this because you want to fit in or is this your actual thought?  Jake not being half the player of those to is kind of a bold statement.  

 

Jake has 1 aspect of his name that both cam and todd lacked. that explosive high speed skating.  saying he may not even be an nhl regular at this age is a very harsh criticism.  we all knew once jake was drafted his maturity was not fully developed.  

 

i think the jake we have seen this off season and into next year will be the first year we see jake as a mature adult hockey player. he was a kid 2 years ago and he was a kid last year if you ask me. jake looks like a man now. i have high hopes and expectations for jake this season.

I see great progress from him and with a commitment to NHL calibre fitness, I think he can have a long successful NHL career.   In terms of "half those players" to to mute expectations on him and avoid further troll feedage as there are three or four who relentless bash this kid without any thought  of giving him any benefit of doubt.   

 

As I have said many times (feels like dozens), I was fairly on the fence about him as a pick and as a player until I started to see the massive amount of vile hate on this board towards him.  Then I started to think of him as the kid he is and what he has gone through and then looked at development of many bigger guys (plus went through  my own progress as a "prospect" and the fact it had bumps) and I decided to look for the silver linings and Virtanen has delivered.  His second half of AHL season was very strong (per underlying  stats AND, most importantly, his coach) and watching I think 8 of those games on internet I saw an NHL player in AHL having challenges with AHL linemates doing AHL things.  He looks to have taken getting and staying in NHL shape seriously.

 

Really hoping for his development sake he comes to camp and rocks it.

 

For my own immature sense of fairness, I also hope he rocks it to shut up these arrogant, puerile hate posters who clearly have never known challenge in their own lives.

[Rush17]

18 minutes ago, Rob_Zepp said:

I see great progress from him and with a commitment to NHL calibre fitness, I think he can have a long successful NHL career.   In terms of "half those players" to to mute expectations on him and avoid further troll feedage as there are three or four who relentless bash this kid without any thought  of giving him any benefit of doubt.   

 

As I have said many times (feels like dozens), I was fairly on the fence about him as a pick and as a player until I started to see the massive amount of vile hate on this board towards him.  Then I started to think of him as the kid he is and what he has gone through and then looked at development of many bigger guys (plus went through  my own progress as a "prospect" and the fact it had bumps) and I decided to look for the silver linings and Virtanen has delivered.  His second half of AHL season was very strong (per underlying  stats AND, most importantly, his coach) and watching I think 8 of those games on internet I saw an NHL player in AHL having challenges with AHL linemates doing AHL things.  He looks to have taken getting and staying in NHL shape seriously.

 

Really hoping for his development sake he comes to camp and rocks it.

 

For my own immature sense of fairness, I also hope he rocks it to shut up these arrogant, puerile hate posters who clearly have never known challenge in their own lives.

i feel ya.  they may just be trolls though.  I hope jake comes back and makes a good impression.  Linden and Jim seemed a little frustrated by jakes immaturity last season when he called out willie.  

 

i think jake will surprise many.  tempering expectation is always a good thing.   i look forward to jake getting his opportunity. i think he will shine with the opportunity. my biggest question is what can he do offensively with his speed. he clearly has confidence in his defensive game but i would like to see what he can do in other areas of the game.

 

i read one poster mention that he or she was frustrated by jakes drop in physical play.  but for those who haven't listened to all the canucks media content. it seemed managment/coaching wanted him to focus on other aspects of his game. as he seemed to constantly be looking for big game changing hits and missing some of the subtles of the game.  i think once he gets down the other aspects of the game he will likely re-incorporate the physical elements to his game. he just has to make thosr impact hits at the right time without drawing penalties.

[Let's Brock 'n' Bo]

8 hours ago, kanucks25 said:

 

Bertuzzi: improvement D+1 year, improvement D+2 year, over 0.5 PP in the NHL in D+3.

 

Primeau: entered NHL right after being drafted, took a step every year in his first 5 season.

 

Kreider: decent production for a rookie in the AHL coming out of college, took a step into the NHL the next year, improved on those numbers the year after that.

 

Otto: first pro year at around age 23/24, about the same PPG throughout his first 5 seasons. "Never showed anything in the NHL before 85/86"? Maybe 'cause he only played 17 freakin' games in the NHL up until that point. This one is tough to use as a comparison because we don't see his pre-NHL development.

 

Stevens: straight into the NHL after college, improvement every season.

 

Leclair: straight into the NHL after college, improvement in his 2nd season, 3rd season stagnation and but then took another step.

 

Benn: improvement every season post-draft

 

Do you see the development path most players that end up being successful take? It's not just age, it's production along the way at any level. Now not all players have this neat, linear, upward trajectory but for the most part, players build on their performance from the previous year, leading towards their prime. A player's numbers might regress or pause for one year in there (like Leclair in his 3rd NHL season) but usually it's not as drastic as Virtanen's regression. So now let's compare Virtanen's path:

 

Virtanen: Disappointing D+1 year (very, very slight improvement, usually you wanna see a bigger jump), decent rookie season in NHL in D+2 year, step back in D+3 year as he's demoted to the AHL and barely outproduced his NHL numbers from the year prior. So even if you want to consider his 13 points in 55 games in his first NHL season a success, that's still two disappointing seasons in his first three post-draft seasons.

 

Neely is probably the best comparison (still not accurate, but probably the closest) because he too had a disappointing D+3 season (not as disappointing as Virtanen's, though), and obviously that was too early to give up on him because he broke out right after. I acknowledge he's only 20, and still has time to turn it around, there is no doubt about that.

 

However, again, anybody who thinks Virtanen's development so far has not been concerning is again, simply delusional or just too big of a homer. If he turns it around and becomes even half the player he was drafted to be, I'll be ecstatic, but I'm not expecting much right now.

https://www.google.ca/amp/theprovince.com/sports/hockey/nhl/vancouver-canucks/jake-virtanen-put-up-good-possession-numbers-in-utica/amp

[kanucks25]

9 minutes ago, Let's Brock 'n' Bo said:

https://www.google.ca/amp/theprovince.com/sports/hockey/nhl/vancouver-canucks/jake-virtanen-put-up-good-possession-numbers-in-utica/amp

1. Already posted in that thread.

 

2. It has little to do with my post that you quoted.

 

3 hours ago, Rob_Zepp said:

I actually do know hockey and I actually have been "a prospect" and have a clue that leads to much  of my perspective.

Well I've been an NHL GM so I guess I win, right?

[dpn1]

8 hours ago, kanucks25 said:

 

Bertuzzi: improvement D+1 year, improvement D+2 year, over 0.5 PP in the NHL in D+3.

 

Primeau: entered NHL right after being drafted, took a step every year in his first 5 season.

 

Kreider: decent production for a rookie in the AHL coming out of college, took a step into the NHL the next year, improved on those numbers the year after that.

 

Otto: first pro year at around age 23/24, about the same PPG throughout his first 5 seasons. "Never showed anything in the NHL before 85/86"? Maybe 'cause he only played 17 freakin' games in the NHL up until that point. This one is tough to use as a comparison because we don't see his pre-NHL development.

 

Stevens: straight into the NHL after college, improvement every season.

 

Leclair: straight into the NHL after college, improvement in his 2nd season, 3rd season stagnation and but then took another step.

 

Benn: improvement every season post-draft

 

Do you see the development path most players that end up being successful take? It's not just age, it's production along the way at any level. Now not all players have this neat, linear, upward trajectory but for the most part, players build on their performance from the previous year, leading towards their prime. A player's numbers might regress or pause for one year in there (like Leclair in his 3rd NHL season) but usually it's not as drastic as Virtanen's regression. So now let's compare Virtanen's path:

 

Virtanen: Disappointing D+1 year (very, very slight improvement, usually you wanna see a bigger jump), decent rookie season in NHL in D+2 year, step back in D+3 year as he's demoted to the AHL and barely outproduced his NHL numbers from the year prior. So even if you want to consider his 13 points in 55 games in his first NHL season a success, that's still two disappointing seasons in his first three post-draft seasons.

 

Neely is probably the best comparison (still not accurate, but probably the closest) because he too had a disappointing D+3 season (not as disappointing as Virtanen's, though), and obviously that was too early to give up on him because he broke out right after. I acknowledge he's only 20, and still has time to turn it around, there is no doubt about that.

 

However, again, anybody who thinks Virtanen's development so far has not been concerning is again, simply delusional or just too big of a homer. If he turns it around and becomes even half the player he was drafted to be, I'll be ecstatic, but I'm not expecting much right now.

I maybe off here but don't you also have to consider the time period they are playing in as well.  Scoring in the 80's and 90's was a bit easier than it is now.  Scoring 20 goals a season has become the new 30 goal season.  Comparing Jake straight up against these guys mentioned earlier without looking a bit deeper and considering context isn't a fair comparision.

[kanucks25]

1 minute ago, dpn1 said:

I maybe off here but don't you also have to consider the time period they are playing in as well.  Scoring in the 80's and 90's was a bit easier than it is now.  Scoring 20 goals a season has become the new 30 goal season.  Comparing Jake straight up against these guys mentioned earlier without looking a bit deeper and considering context isn't a fair comparision.

I understand what you mean, but for the most part I considered progression compared to the previous season more than the actual raw numbers. Again, the progression/development we see in most prospects who pan out is the important thing.

 

Doesn't really matter what they can become or what kind of players they are, most take the proper steps forward almost every year towards their prime. Virtanen has taken two steps back since being drafted.

[Rob_Zepp]

12 minutes ago, kanucks25 said:

 

 

Well I've been an NHL GM so I guess I win, right?

No question, you are a winner!   

[Boudrias]

2 hours ago, Rush17 said:

i feel ya.  they may just be trolls though.  I hope jake comes back and makes a good impression.  Linden and Jim seemed a little frustrated by jakes immaturity last season when he called out willie.  

 

i think jake will surprise many.  tempering expectation is always a good thing.   i look forward to jake getting his opportunity. i think he will shine with the opportunity. my biggest question is what can he do offensively with his speed. he clearly has confidence in his defensive game but i would like to see what he can do in other areas of the game.

 

i read one poster mention that he or she was frustrated by jakes drop in physical play.  but for those who haven't listened to all the canucks media content. it seemed managment/coaching wanted him to focus on other aspects of his game. as he seemed to constantly be looking for big game changing hits and missing some of the subtles of the game.  i think once he gets down the other aspects of the game he will likely re-incorporate the physical elements to his game. he just has to make thosr impact hits at the right time without drawing penalties.

I had expressed concern about a drop off in his physical game before he was sent to Utica. I questioned whether that had continued but 'Stawns' said no. Stawns watched a lot of Utica hockey and was very positive about how Virtanen was rebuilding his game. Excited to see the result this fall. 

[Hairy Kneel]

Guentzal was a rookie at 22. had 21 points in 25 playoff games. including 13 goals.

The compete level in the playoffs is where I can't wait to see Jake.

[ashlynnbrookefan]

8 hours ago, Rush17 said:

i feel ya.  they may just be trolls though.  I hope jake comes back and makes a good impression.  Linden and Jim seemed a little frustrated by jakes immaturity last season when he called out willie.  

 

i think jake will surprise many.  tempering expectation is always a good thing.   i look forward to jake getting his opportunity. i think he will shine with the opportunity. my biggest question is what can he do offensively with his speed. he clearly has confidence in his defensive game but i would like to see what he can do in other areas of the game.

 

i read one poster mention that he or she was frustrated by jakes drop in physical play.  but for those who haven't listened to all the canucks media content. it seemed managment/coaching wanted him to focus on other aspects of his game. as he seemed to constantly be looking for big game changing hits and missing some of the subtles of the game.  i think once he gets down the other aspects of the game he will likely re-incorporate the physical elements to his game. he just has to make thosr impact hits at the right time without drawing penalties.

Why do they have to be trolls? Can't just be upset fans with the way the pick has gone so far? So many people in this thread call people that aren't happy or don't think he will turn out as trolls, which is ridiculous. 73 percent says all the time that Jakes young so we can't get on him and in the same post will say McCann is a bust haha. I hope Jake turns into what was hoped from many on draft day. Do I think that will happen? No. Does that make me a troll? No. I want nothing more than the Canucks to win a cup, and hopefully with Virtanen being a contributor on that squad but I wouldn't bet on it. It would be foolish with what we know and we've seen. Anyone pro Jake that gets angry and defensive at anyone who's disappointed/mad/upset at Jake is foolish. If you're anti Jake then there's no reason to get defensive about someone being pro Jake. No ones opinion on this board means anything in Virtanens reality so we will just have to wait and see who's right. Hopefully it's not me. 

[Rob_Zepp]

1 hour ago, ashlynnbrookefan said:

Why do they have to be trolls? Can't just be upset fans with the way the pick has gone so far? So many people in this thread call people that aren't happy or don't think he will turn out as trolls, which is ridiculous. 73 percent says all the time that Jakes young so we can't get on him and in the same post will say McCann is a bust haha. I hope Jake turns into what was hoped from many on draft day. Do I think that will happen? No. Does that make me a troll? No. I want nothing more than the Canucks to win a cup, and hopefully with Virtanen being a contributor on that squad but I wouldn't bet on it. It would be foolish with what we know and we've seen. Anyone pro Jake that gets angry and defensive at anyone who's disappointed/mad/upset at Jake is foolish. If you're anti Jake then there's no reason to get defensive about someone being pro Jake. No ones opinion on this board means anything in Virtanens reality so we will just have to wait and see who's right. Hopefully it's not me. 

Great post.   I agree that in no way, shape, form does having a different opinion make anyone a "troll".   A "troll" is someone who purposely posts things to rile up the general population of a board and loves it when some take their bait - hence the term.   Your  posts are thought out and your perspective on this player understandable.  You are not making claims of seeing him in 7-11 with belly over jeans eating nachos (yup, that was in one post), you are not posting relentlessly about an entirely different style of player as a compare as if Virtanen can change into a small, waterbug type forward to make up for it, you are not posting about "knowing someone who knows someone who say.....fill in nasty rumour here" and similar.    Finally, you are not transparently a fan of another franchise here to find a topic, any topic, that annoys those keen on this franchise.   

 

I have stated many times, I was "meh" about this draft pick and was totally on the fence about him until I saw some of the mean-spirited posts and then the massive amount of relentless trolling.   Not posts like yours at all, the actual troll posts and there are about 5 to 10 posters (well, 5 to 10 "handles" that may well be only 1 or 2 lonely souls) who seemingly dislike being challenged let alone exposed for trolling yet they are do damn obvious.   Now I just pull for the poor kid, perhaps full more than is logical, but so badly want to see the sophomoric smirks on the troll's faces be wiped away by the napkins used to mop up their crow dinners.   Wishful thinking?   Sure but it is entertaining.

 

Anyway, I sure don't think you are a troll.  You have a valid opinion and you offer reasons for your conclusion.   People can choose to agree or disagree with you - that is fun of CDC.

 

Hope that makes sense.  

[ashlynnbrookefan]

5 minutes ago, Rob_Zepp said:

Great post.   I agree that in no way, shape, form does having a different opinion make anyone a "troll".   A "troll" is someone who purposely posts things to rile up the general population of a board and loves it when some take their bait - hence the term.   Your  posts are thought out and your perspective on this player understandable.  You are not making claims of seeing him in 7-11 with belly over jeans eating nachos (yup, that was in one post), you are not posting relentlessly about an entirely different style of player as a compare as if Virtanen can change into a small, waterbug type forward to make up for it, you are not posting about "knowing someone who knows someone who say.....fill in nasty rumour here" and similar.    Finally, you are not transparently a fan of another franchise here to find a topic, any topic, that annoys those keen on this franchise.   

 

I have stated many times, I was "meh" about this draft pick and was totally on the fence about him until I saw some of the mean-spirited posts and then the massive amount of relentless trolling.   Not posts like yours at all, the actual troll posts and there are about 5 to 10 posters (well, 5 to 10 "handles" that may well be only 1 or 2 lonely souls) who seemingly dislike being challenged let alone exposed for trolling yet they are do damn obvious.   Now I just pull for the poor kid, perhaps full more than is logical, but so badly want to see the sophomoric smirks on the troll's faces be wiped away by the napkins used to mop up their crow dinners.   Wishful thinking?   Sure but it is entertaining.

 

Anyway, I sure don't think you are a troll.  You have a valid opinion and you offer reasons for your conclusion.   People can choose to agree or disagree with you - that is fun of CDC.

 

Hope that makes sense.  

It absolutely does. And as much as I'm not sold on him as a player I'm stoked to see him in camp this year, because the potential is obviously there for him to be a productive NHLer. 

[Rob_Zepp]

6 hours ago, Hairy Kneel said:

Guentzal was a rookie at 22. had 21 points in 25 playoff games. including 13 goals.

The compete level in the playoffs is where I can't wait to see Jake.

I was thinking the other day, clearly with a time warp issue, that is the Canucks as Virtanen and Guddy in their 2011 lineup in SCF against Bruins, does it go down differently?  

[aGENT]

17 minutes ago, Rob_Zepp said:

I was thinking the other day, clearly with a time warp issue, that is the Canucks as Virtanen and Guddy in their 2011 lineup in SCF against Bruins, does it go down differently?  

They probably both would have been suspended 

 

[Sugar baby watermelon]

23 hours ago, Erik Karlsson said:

Yeah I think he'll be a 40 point guy minimum. That with his speed and hitting ability is well worth the pick imo. Can find players like Ehlers and Nylander every draft, but not too many players similiar to Virtanen. He's one of the most powerful hitters I've seen and has elite speed and shot power. Has to get his accuracy back, but that will come while he gains more confidence.

he can hit like a freight train but his confidence for making hits seemed to take a huge fall when he was penalized for a late hit and went to the sin bin, needs toget his timing right to make hits on the move vs people running into him and him knocking them on their asses.  I cant wait to see him come out and knock players over left, right, and centre.

[Kaner]

24 minutes ago, Rob_Zepp said:

I was thinking the other day, clearly with a time warp issue, that is the Canucks as Virtanen and Guddy in their 2011 lineup in SCF against Bruins, does it go down differently?  

No. 

 

I don't think they could make up for the injuries. 

[TFerguson]

Has anyone on here heard/read anything on the state of Jake's shoulder?

 

That lingering injury has been one of my primary concerns with him as it has the potential to seriously hamper his style of play. I haven't watched any full Utica games with him but with the Canucks it seemed to be an issue after a big hit sometimes and maybe part of the reason he let up in spots. 

 

Hope its its not an issue but anyone something more concrete than hope?

[Nave]

13 hours ago, The Sedge said:

Makes me cringe just thinking about that surgery.  I liked Dorsett too, feel bad for him.

I suffered a herniated disc in my neck and it ruined my life for awhile. Feel so bad for him.

[Rob_Zepp]

47 minutes ago, Kaner said:

No. 

 

I don't think they could make up for the injuries. 

I was thinking the injuries may have been more equal and Lucic doesn't crush Hamhuis if that was Guddy he goes up against.