Redressing the Balance

[Canuck Surfer]

Winning environment? Where? What did the team actually win?

You win by competing, not by tanking.

If we have done our best, I'm happy to look past the tustle and shake the winners hand.

Sportsmanship 101.

[Canuck Surfer]

What happened in the playoffs had a lot to do with bad luck. Miller being injured and not ready to go right from the beginning, Kassian being injured, losing Burrows, Richardson playing injured. It's difficult to overcome all this against a team like the Flames, who are bend on beating us, have a ton of energy and aren't going to stop coming at us. We need to get tougher on defence, and keep getting younger, we'll be fine. Would be a huge bonus if Cole makes the team next year.

Just an opinion (mine);

We did not lose because of luck > Burrows, Miller, Kassian etc being injured. They were missing Norris trophy candidate.

We actually carried more of the possession, more of the play. They were opportunistic, by design I might add.

We lost for three primary reasons > One their defence moved the puck out of their end much better than ours when either the chance. We need to improve here. If we carry the play, but cough up the puck at the wrong time, one golden opportunity such as Weber gave Calgary in game one can cost you a game (or two). A game you otherwise deserved to win. Part two, even when we commanded the puck, they held their structure. We did hold the puck a lot more and fired a lot more shots. But they blocked shots, blocked bodies from getting to the net, swarmed passing lanes. So we did not get high quality chances for our efforts. They held until they had a chance to clear the zone and did so effectively. Good defence. Part three is they, without the puck caused those turnovers. Their fore-check, and attacking the puck in neutral and defensive zones was relentless. They hit everything that moved. Ultimately we coughed up the puck, more than once, for transition high % scoring opportunities.

They executed upset hockey 101 as a game plan to a tee. So they deserved to win!

So where do we go from here?

Well, up front you develop first Kassian and Jake Virtanen. These are bodies whom Calgary's, good but small, defence will have trouble blocking from getting to the net. Maybe add Gaunce as well. This will create space and a goalie distraction if nothing else. But will probably also get tap ins and rebounds. That alone would have won the series. Similarly, big guys that can punish a D, like Ferland was doing, will wear them out. But we did not have them, so we did not deserve to win. It does suggest we will be capable of this real, real soon?

So we can look to other area's as priorities IMO.

^It's worth noting that with last change, Anaheim has completely been able to abuse Calgary. With bodies like Maroon, Getzlaf and Perry. They GET to the net. But at home, Calgary has been able to get the right bodies, and play the same upset hockey. I think Anaheim will win this series fairly shortly. But the point illustrated how you construct a mismatch to break a teams (Calgary) game plan.

I also mentioned more space? Slashing and cutting talent players, like Baertschi (and hopefully Shinkaruk) would also start shredding teams with that space. We also have this component on its way...

What is less obvious is whether a PMD like Clendenning, Subban or someone will emerge to help us clear our zone. Sbisa would not be so bad if we did not have to rely on him to lug the puck on his pair. This same guy should dance around checkers who attack. That's a skill we don't have on our defence. Russell is able to do that. So even with less possession they could both clear the zone and create scoring chances. We need to secure and / or develop a PMD! That also would have swung the balance of the series!

That is a bigger issue, because the candidates we have are less of a sure bet to develop into such a player.

Last; a otherwise capable physical D man who can smash the Bollig's, the Ferlands of the world. Or Getzlaf, Perry and Lucic. Big enough to block them from getting to the net, from getting to the puck in corner scrums. Maybe that is Tryamkin? Pedan? That is possible, but an even bigger question than at PMD as neither all that advanced.

At the end of the day, we are closer than people think. But there are pieces of the puzzle we have to find on defence!

[lmm]

Just an opinion (mine);

We did not lose because of luck > Burrows, Miller, Kassian etc being injured. They were missing Norris trophy candidate.

We actually carried more of the possession, more of the play. They were opportunistic, by design I might add.

We lost for three primary reasons > One their defence moved the puck out of their end much better than ours when either the chance. We need to improve here. If we carry the play, but cough up the puck at the wrong time, one golden opportunity such as Weber gave Calgary in game one can cost you a game (or two). A game you otherwise deserved to win. Part two, even when we commanded the puck, they held their structure. We did hold the puck a lot more and fired a lot more shots. But they blocked shots, blocked bodies from getting to the net, swarmed passing lanes. So we did not get high quality chances for our efforts. They held until they had a chance to clear the zone and did so effectively. Good defence. Part three is they, without the puck caused those turnovers. Their fore-check, and attacking the puck in neutral and defensive zones was relentless. They hit everything that moved. Ultimately we coughed up the puck, more than once, for transition high % scoring opportunities.

They executed upset hockey 101 as a game plan to a tee. So they deserved to win!

So where do we go from here?

Well, up front you develop first Kassian and Jake Virtanen. These are bodies whom Calgary's, good but small, defence will have trouble blocking from getting to the net. Maybe add Gaunce as well. This will create space and a goalie distraction if nothing else. But will probably also get tap ins and rebounds. That alone would have won the series. Similarly, big guys that can punish a D, like Ferland was doing, will wear them out. But we did not have them, so we did not deserve to win. It does suggest we will be capable of this real, real soon?

So we can look to other area's as priorities IMO.

^It's worth noting that with last change, Anaheim has completely been able to abuse Calgary. With bodies like Maroon, Getzlaf and Perry. They GET to the net. But at home, Calgary has been able to get the right bodies, and play the same upset hockey. I think Anaheim will win this series fairly shortly. But the point illustrated how you construct a mismatch to break a teams (Calgary) game plan.

I also mentioned more space? Slashing and cutting talent players, like Baertschi (and hopefully Shinkaruk) would also start shredding teams with that space. We also have this component on its way...

What is less obvious is whether a PMD like Clendenning, Subban or someone will emerge to help us clear our zone. Sbisa would not be so bad if we did not have to rely on him to lug the puck on his pair. This same guy should dance around checkers who attack. That's a skill we don't have on our defence. Russell is able to do that. So even with less possession they could both clear the zone and create scoring chances. We need to secure and / or develop a PMD! That also would have swung the balance of the series!

That is a bigger issue, because the candidates we have are less of a sure bet to develop into such a player.

Last; a otherwise capable physical D man who can smash the Bollig's, the Ferlands of the world. Or Getzlaf, Perry and Lucic. Big enough to block them from getting to the net, from getting to the puck in corner scrums. Maybe that is Tryamkin? Pedan? That is possible, but an even bigger question than at PMD as neither all that advanced.

At the end of the day, we are closer than people think. But there are pieces of the puzzle we have to find on defence!

excellent post Surfer

we may be close we may not.

at this point we are still hoping many of our prospects blossom into more than what we already have.

You mention we need a PMD and I agree, we don't seem to have one anywhere in our pool.

You mention Kassian, Virtanen and maybe Gaunce but we have to hope they turn into more than Kassian (currently), Sandlak and Mathias.

You don't mention goaltending but it needs to be better than is was this playoff as well.

there is still hope, but a lot depends on ALL of our prospects maxing their potential.

[Benchsplinters]

Here's where you have blinders on.

A good team is one who can contend for the Cup. We aren't even close. When we are a team that has a legit shot at winning it all, then I'd say we have a good team.

If your standards are low enough that having a decent regular season makes for a good team, then that's on you.

Here's where you have blinders on.

A good team is one who can contend for the Cup. We aren't even close. When we are a team that has a legit shot at winning it all, then I'd say we have a good team.

If your standards are low enough that having a decent regular season makes for a good team, then that's on you.

You are simply mincing words. A good team is a good team. It may not be a winner but one can still consider it a good team.

In his and my opinion the Canucks were a good team but they were beaten by a better team

[TimberWolf]

You are simply mincing words. A good team is a good team. It may not be a winner but one can still consider it a good team.

In his and my opinion the Canucks were a good team but they were beaten by a better team

Do you really feel like the Canucks left nothing on the ice when getting soundly beaten by the Flames?

The best way can describe the current Nucks is they are the best bad team or the worst good team. Top of the bottom or bottom of the top if that sounds more palatable

[JamesB]

Forever picking at their own scabs of ineptitude. Thats fantastic.

My only problem with this post is that it does what we all do. Paint CDC with a broad brush. There are a lot of varied opinions and as tends to happen in life those who shout the loudest are heard the most. A few discontents and trolls make it look like we are all complaining. Threads that beat up on people tend to attract packs of internet bullies that want to add to the beating.

I think in general the group on CDC is very supportive of the Canucks. People have varying opinions on how to ultimately get where we want to go. Same is true for GMs and hockey management types. It certainly is reasonable to look at winning teams and see that they often dropped to the bottom as part of their climb back to the top. LA, Chicago, Pittsburgh (though how is that working now) etc.

This is also a team that in its history has only ever had one true number 1 centre in Henrik (and really his window near the top of the league was only a couple of years and he never got that much respect around the league). We have never had a real top notch dominant defender with Ohlund really being the only one who came close before the eye injury. It is understandable that the fans want to see that. It seems particularly unfair when we look at Edmonton who has had Gretzky and Messier and is gifted so many first overalls including the next great one. Canucks fans not only want the championship team they want their superstar as the closest they had was Bure who demanded his way out of town.

This is completely correct. As of right now the OP has a score +19. Most posts that get high scores are very positive about the team and negative posts rarely get significant positive scores. This shows that CDC is very positive about the Canucks in general.

As we might expect, there are a lot homers. Before every game the predictions that appear in the game day thread run about 10 to 1 in favor of the Canucks winning. And CDC is full or player assessments that can only be described as optimistic.

Some of the negative comments are thoughtless or come from trolls. But CDC also has a number of posters who want to look at the Canuck situation analytically and will identify legitimate problems with the team. For example, in the early days of the Tortorella regime there were a few people who were critical of his coaching style even though most people on CDC were trying to be positive. But the critics turned out to be right.

As for this year, I think we can agree that WD did a good job of the getting as much as possible out the talent the Canucks had. As the OP said no coach has a record that looks perfect in hindsight, and Willie's record looks pretty good.

It is possible the get a read on a coaching performance fairly quickly (like after a year) and the big improvement with essentially the same team is very positive.

With the GM it takes longer to make an assessment and the jury is definitely still out on Benning. In the data, the big improvement experienced by the Canucks was due mainly to bouncebacks by the Sedins, Edler and Burrows. Tanev had a good season and of course Horvat had a big impact. And Lack played a key role. Those players were all around long before Benning came on board.

The Benning acquisitions for last year were Vrbata, Miller, Vey, Sbisa, Bonino, and Dorsett.

And they were expensive. Vrby was $5 million, but he turned out to worth it. Miller was 6 million and his numbers were below average for NHL goaltenders. That does not look like a home run. Vey did not do well. Sbisa and Bonino came in the Kesler trade and it is reasonable to wonder if the Benning could have chosen better players from Anaheim. He probably had a number of lower-tier roster players to pick from and it is far from clear he picked the right ones. Most people are happy with Dorsett but he is not more than a 4th liner and his underlying numbers are not great. I personally am happy to have him on the team, but a lot of other guys can do similar things at low cost.

To me this record looks okay but not great. If the prospects he picked up (Clendening and Baertschi, along with his draft picks) work out well then his record will look good. But it is too early to give him a lot of credit so far.

[desiboynux4lifee*******]

Look all I want is Vrbata and Hamuis to be traded at the draft. This team can stock up on some solid 1sts and do a much quicker rebuild. Bieksa is not going anywhere sadly because he already hinted it out, but hamuis is a guy who is playing decent at the worlds, he is well respected and a contender might pay alot for him. With Vrbata if you can get a 1st for him, I would.

[dura_mater]

I have made little secret of my disaffection for many of our fans on here. They seem to exude a self entitled, immature almost conceit, coupled with an ability to be either up in the clouds of fantasy in their unrealistic expectations or a willingness to volunteer to be the cheerful pall bearers of this team's corpse.

That sums up this generation of Vancouverites perfectly (Canucks fans or not).

[JeremyCuddles]

Some of you post way too much about posters and way too little about the actual team.

What are you here for if you hate us so much?

Pretty much this. A lot of people get worked up over other posters.

[Maniwaki Canuck]

As for the coaching criticism, sure Willie has made some mistakes, so what? We will never know what they were though, so stop kidding yourselves. He also must have done a hell of a lot right, you would think.

What coach doesn't make mistakes, who in the league is perfect? So why jump all over a rookie with your 20/20 hindsight and your "Idiots Pocket Guide on How to Coach in the NHL?"

Speak for yourself. There's been plenty of good analysis of what those mistakes were on this board, and latterly in this thread. And as for calling everyone out about negativity, your track record on Kassian's case makes you sound pretty hypcritical on this score. But you are pretty consistent with the self-righteous tone, I'll give you that.

[alfstonker]

Speak for yourself. There's been plenty of good analysis of what those mistakes were on this board, and latterly in this thread. And as for calling everyone out about negativity, your track record on Kassian's case makes you sound pretty hypcritical on this score. But you are pretty consistent with the self-righteous tone, I'll give you that.

I'm sorry, you and all the others have absolutely no idea of the factors which affected decisions. These decisions were based on discussions, tactics, health, practice and a lot more.

None of this were you or anyone else privy to.

Stop fantasising, it becomes embarrassing when people who may not even have held a hockey stick never mind take a team to the playoffs start thinking they can teach the pros. Let us all know when you are coaching in the NHL. And the same goes for the whining press and media.

Most of the 20/20 hindsighters on CDC were just as prepared to break out the bunting and plan the parade if the Canucks had taken it to and won game 7 at home.

[oldnews]

I may have gotten the wrong impression of you Alfstonker from all your irrational railing at Kassian's expense haha, but I like you more with every subsequent post.

This is a good OP - solid perspective imo.

[Dutch_Canuck]

I read some of the threads and posts on CDC and I just thank God Willie and the team didn't win just 90 points. You know, like a team bringing in new management, new coaching staff and having an ageing core and a ton of injuries (a given at this club apparently) might be expected to do.

Unlike many on here it seems. I remember perfectly well the written expectations of this fanbase at the beginning of the season, a fanbase stunned into reality and humbled by the utter cr-p we were served up last season by a team flogged to death by an out of control tyrant.

However, what actually transpired, despite the "injuryfest" was the re-emergence of a team that could play attractive hockey, good enough to beat the best, a team who despite all the pre-season portents of doom on here (by probably the same malcontents spouting off now) about being fore-arm shivered into oblivion by the Western giants, actually qualified comfortably in their division and achieving a marvellous 5th in the Conference.

Their points total was 101 only 3 short of that team Nashville, many of you guys had been wetting your pants about all season.

So post regular season, let's forget all the above and cue all of a sudden the unrealistic bs of long runs and Stanley Cups. The only team in our way is of course, the team not allowed to get better, the team who obviously have a cr-p coach, the team who are only allowed to have sub standard rookies, the team whose fans don't matter: the Calgary Flames.

The disrespect shown to Calgary was utterly shameful on here, by people who profess to know something about hockey and of course stoked up by the ever malignant and divisive Vancouver media who are never pleased with this team and forever picking at their own scabs of ineptitude.

We all know how it turned out. Bottom line, OUR TEAM wasn't good enough, true we didn't always get the breaks we deserved and some of the refereeing decisions might have been questionable but the bottom line was we just didn't have enough in the tank.

As for the coaching criticism, sure Willie has made some mistakes, so what? We will never know what they were though, so stop kidding yourselves. He also must have done a hell of a lot right, you would think.

What coach doesn't make mistakes, who in the league is perfect? So why jump all over a rookie with your 20/20 hindsight and your "Idiots Pocket Guide on How to Coach in the NHL?"

This rookie outperformed many other more respected, seasoned, coaches along the way to get there, despite horrendous injuries, despite an ageing core, despite transitioning in new players including first season rookies AND he actually got us to the playoffs.

Despite what anyone will tell you, anything other than winning the Cup is just more gate money. We got to the Final in 2011 and we are still reading on these boards just how deficient that team was. Of course, in reality it wasn't, in reality it was one of the best teams this club will ever see but hey, they didn't win the Cup so let's take it out on the City and disrespect them till doomsday.

I realise this is just end of season shooting the breeze, but all this denigrating of the coach, the management and the players is ultimately damaging to our hockey club. Lies, in the form of "opinions" and with the benefit of hindsight are being written and repeated and embellished, many by people who seem to me, to have twisted agendas and will never be happy. (I suspect even if we were to win a Cup)

I have made little secret of my disaffection for many of our fans on here. They seem to exude a self entitled, immature almost conceit, coupled with an ability to be either up in the clouds of fantasy in their unrealistic expectations or a willingness to volunteer to be the cheerful pall bearers of this team's corpse.

We have a good team, a team in transition, we are not Stanley Cup contenders, we are trying to provide a winning environment in which to bring in new blood. That was the goal and that was what was achieved. In fact we achieved more but as is always the case on here, not enough for some.

Frankly, I will be super pleased if we achieve the same position next season, given that we will see a further step up of our transitioning towards building a team which I hope will in 3-4 years be a genuine cup contender under Willie and our new management. Until then I am enjoying every minute of the ride.

I'm sure some people will recognise themselves on here and launch into an offensive, what's new?

However I felt it was time to give a voice to all (probably the majority) of the CDC fans who read these disparaging threads and posts and don't recognise the sentiments for being how they feel at all.

IMO most of our fans are happy with the new management, the new coach and our achievements so far during this transition but don't want to risk being attacked for saying so.

This is their reply.

Thanks you for writing this ! I'm never able to get my thoughts onto paper well enough, so reading this is fantastic. Love my Canucks, and it was so good to see them play so well in the season. There are so many positives to come out of this year, we are definitely a team trending upwards ! Linden and Co. are doing a good job, and quietly going about there business plan and that is so good to see.

[bluesman60]

Unrealistic expectations arise from the fact that one moment, you are in Game7 playing for the SC and then the next you get bounced in Round 1. The scapegoat was MG and Torts but seriously, although they were far from perfect, they did have their moments. No one knew that the cap would drop so drastically and handcuff Gillis and his pissed off coach because he couldn't get the necessary changes to the team. Torts stated before he left that the core was getting stale and that changes needed to be made. Gillis did start to restock the prospect pool and after all the bitching about his decision to trade Schneider for a 1st (Horvat), few would want to part with Horvat now.

The team is in good hands now with Linden, Benning and WD but transition to a solid contender will take time. There are unrealistic expectations regarding getting a Webber, Doughty or Seth Jones dman and that is not likely to happen unless Benning can trade up to a top 5 pick.

It will take at least 2 more seasons for the prospects to be ready to make the jump and then we will see what we have. The Sedins' only have 2 more years on their contracts, will they be back for more? Will we have top end prospects that can form a 1st line and contend with thethe likes of Kopitar and Getzlaf?

A lot of good fortune has to come Vancouver's way to get everyone peaking together to form a solid contender. They are not ready to pull an Edmonton, Buffalo or Calgary tank job in order to get the 1st or 2nd overall pick so the only way is to get lucky via trade and signing FAs'.

I have been a fan of the Canucks since the day they entered the league and have seen a lot of ups and downs.

The ultimate goal is to win a SC, not just to contend for it.....we have done the contending part 3 times already. So, goal one is to ice an entertaining team but that doesn't mean that they should rest on that because it is not just about the gate.....it is about winning a cup. Either way, I will always be a fan but that does not mean that I have to be happy with mediocrity and reserve my right to say my piece good or bad.

[coastal.view]

thumbs up

i stopped coming here regularly for similar reasons

the amount of unreleastic negativity on here is too much sometimes

and i really got tired of the kassian obsession as well

maybe next season will be different

hope things are well with you deb

[GTVic]

I stopped reading at we disrespected Calgary. I haven't been blindly attacked by any other fan base as much as I have by theirs.

He meant that people didn't think we should lose to the CALGARY FLAMES HOCKEY TEAM. "team xyz fan's suck" posts are pointless.

[GTVic]

Currently the Canucks are a team that overachieved in the regular season but played status quo with other Canuck teams in the last four playoffs. (out in the 1st or missed all together)

Overacheived because they got 3 more wins in 82 games than you thought they would? No one in their right mind has the ability to predict point totals that accurately. And I'm basing that on most pundits saying they would be 8th or 9th in the conference which would be about 95 points.

[lmm]

I think I am on record for predicting 10 wins by Xmas, so they waaay over achieved based on my guestimate.

However they did some nice things this year,

Bonino and Vey's early scoring

Mathias' hattrick against the Bruins and 18 goals

Bo's solid game and Kenin's early goals

Hamhuis and the no-name defence

Weber's PP contribution

and Lack's solid play when Miller went down

It all added up to a surprising regular season, IMO

unfortunately with the exception of Horvat all those players cooled off by the playoffs

and with the exception of Hamhuis none of the above are core players

[48MPHSlapShot]

I agree with your points, but the "disrespecting Calgary" thing kinda caught me off guard. It's called gamesmanship. Get used to it.

[alfstonker]

I agree with your points, but the "disrespecting Calgary" thing kinda caught me off guard. It's called gamesmanship. Get used to it.

What I was trying to say was if you disrespect an opponent in such a derisory manner there becomes no glory in victory nor any honour in defeat.

Some native Americans went out of their way to build up the reputation of their enemies as it meant their achievement in victory was more impressive.

By decrying the abilities of Calgary some of our fans not only made fools of themselves but ended up taking the defeat as if it was the end of the world. It wasn't but it served them right and they got no sympathy from me.

By the way I think you will find that it was not "gamesmanship" it was crowing. One requires a certain amount of talent and wit the other requires a big mouth.