Z Hockey Posted April 15, 2016 Share Posted April 15, 2016 3 hours ago, TimberWolf said: There is no GM on the planet that would trade Toews away to pick up Pavelski. Not even ours They might trade Toews and a (Conditional) 5th for Pavelski and a 2nd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alflives Posted April 15, 2016 Share Posted April 15, 2016 Just now, Z Hockey said: Did you play Junior A or B?? It's also the gooniest hockey haha, everyone acts like Tom Sestito. Mid to late 60s. The goon hockey was not in style yet. Everyone was expected to play and handle themselves too. It was great fun. You will love it! Jonathan Toews, Pavel Datsyuk and guys like would have been the best players. Play both ways, and handle the physical play too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Z Hockey Posted April 15, 2016 Share Posted April 15, 2016 5 hours ago, Toews said: Toews doesn't play with Kane. He's played with him MANY times, don't play stupid, 1/4 of Toews offensive numbers are from playing with P.Kane. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Z Hockey Posted April 15, 2016 Share Posted April 15, 2016 3 minutes ago, Alflives said: Mid to late 60s. The goon hockey was not in style yet. Everyone was expected to play and handle themselves too. It was great fun. You will love it! Jonathan Toews, Pavel Datsyuk and guys like would have been the best players. Play both ways, and handle the physical play too. Awesome! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toews Posted April 15, 2016 Share Posted April 15, 2016 3 minutes ago, Z Hockey said: He's played with him MANY times, don't play stupid, 1/4 of Toews offensive numbers are from playing with P.Kane. Other than Q shuffling up the lines occasionally he doesn't play with Kane 5v5 by any appreciable amount. His production is not driven by Kane. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gollumpus Posted April 15, 2016 Share Posted April 15, 2016 4 hours ago, Harvey Spector said: 10 flops at #1 overall in 45 years. That's a 22% flop rate for the first pick in the draft. Pretty high if you ask me. I'm sure the flop rate is much higher at pick #205 so to get a stud at that pick is quite impressive. It takes great scouting and of course a bit of luck. But as the saying goes you gotta be good to be lucky. FYI: I'm not griping at you Harvey. When I see a comment along the lines of, "Well, team X has great scouting because they can find players in the lower rounds of the draft", I then go and look at who they drafted in the year under discussion. I also do a general survey of other, later round gems (if any) who they didn't take, but perhaps should have, assuming that they were available. If indeed the team in question was so adept at scouting and drafting, then why didn't they also select these other gems, or, why did they select some duds in the rounds prior to finally taking the later round gem? Why risk that someone else has also done their homework and scouted that prospect? How valuable a prospect did the Sharks believe that Clowe would be since they waited until the 6th round to draft him? Pretty much any team can scout prospects (insert <Except for the Canucks> here). I'm on the side of of luck being of more importance in drafting in the later rounds (excluding instances like Bure and Datsyuk), followed by good development to take off the rough edges. There is also team needs which would have to be taken into account as to why they drafted a certain player in a particular round and therefore passed on a possible "gem". "Z"'s list: Wisniewski - 2002, selected in the 5th rnd (156th). The only other Hawks' pick from this year who has had NHL success was some scrub named Keith (2nd rnd). McElhinney - 2002, selected in the 6th rnd (176th). The only other Flames' pick who have had NHL success from this year are Nystrom (1st rnd) and Lombardi (3rd rnd). Ranger - 2002, selected in the 6th rnd (183rd). The only other picks by the Lightning who have had NHL success from this year are Norrena (7th rnd) and Craig (8th rnd). Ranger is currently playing in the Swiss league. Max Talbot - 2002, selected in the 8th end (234th). The only other Penguins' picks who have had NHL success from this year are Whitney (1st) and Christensen (3rd rnd), (Is there any reason why Chicago, the Flames, the Lightning, or any team other than the Penns didn't select Talbot before the 8th round? And why did the Penns wait that long?) Wellwood - 2001, selected in the 5th rnd (134th). The only other Leafs' picks from this year who have had NHL success were Colaiacovo (1st rnd) and Harrison (3rd rnd). Pilar (2nd rnd) and Bell (3rd rnd) are borderline successes in that they are close to the 100 game mark (my arbitrary marker for "success" in the NHL). Bieksa - 2001, selected in the 5th rnd (151st). The only other Canucks' pick from this year who has had NHL success is R. J. Umberger. (1st rnd). Mike Smith - 2001, selected in the 5th rnd (161st). The only other Stars pick from this year who has had NHL success is Jussi Jokinen (6th rnd). The interesting thing about Smith is that he was the second goalie selected by the Stars in that draft, behind Jason Bacashihua (1st rnd). Seidenberg - 2001, selected in the 6th rnd (172nd). The only other Flyers' picks from this year who have had NHL success are Woywika (1st rnd) and Sharp (3rd rnd), Clowe - 2001, selected in the 6th rnd (175th). The only other Sharks' picks from this year who have had NHL success are Goc (1st) and Ehrhoff (4th). As an FYI, the Sharks also drafted two guys named Patzold (4th rnd) and Plihal (5th rnd) ahead of Clowe. Zidlicky - 2001, selected in the 6th rnd (176th). The only other Rangers picks from this year who have had NHL success are Tyutin (2nd rnd), Murray (3rd rnd), Hollweg (8th rnd, 238th). Jussi Jokinen - 2001, selected in the 6th round (192nd). The only other Stars pick from this year who has had NHL success is Mike Smith (5th rnd). (See above) Laich - 2001, selected in the 6th rnd (193rd). The only other Senators picks from this year who have had NHL success are Spezza (1st rnd) Gleason (1st rnd), Emery (4th rnd), Schubert (4th rnd), Bochenski (7th rnd), Oduya - 2001, selected in the 7th rnd (221st). The only other Capitols' pick from this year who has had some NHL success is Paetsch (1st rnd), Parenteau - 2001, selected way down in the 9th round (264th). The only other Ducks' pick who has had NHL success from this draft year was Martin Gerber (8th rnd, 232 OA). As with the 2002 selections, why would certain teams wait until so late in the draft to select these guys? The answer is, they didn't know that these guys would turn out to be as good as they did. These teams got lucky, and then developed their prospects well. regards, G. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ForsbergTheGreat Posted April 15, 2016 Share Posted April 15, 2016 There’s usually 1 or 2 late round gems every year Hornqvist 7th round 230 overall in 2005, Yandle, Helm and Letang were all after the 3rd round. MArchard 3rd round in 2006 Jamie Benn 5th round in 2007 Holtby, Brodie, Spergon & Nyquist were all after the 4th round in 2008 Barrie & Vatanen were 3rd and 4th round picks in 2009 Klingberg and Gallagher were 5th rounds and Stone was a 6th round in 2010 Palat was a 7th round and Gaudreau was a 4th in 2011 Hutton was a 5th round pick in 2012, while yak was 1st overall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Z Hockey Posted April 15, 2016 Share Posted April 15, 2016 42 minutes ago, Toews said: Other than Q shuffling up the lines occasionally he doesn't play with Kane 5v5 by any appreciable amount. His production is not driven by Kane. I said 1/4 of his numbers are from P.Kane. I didn't say flat out "his production is driven by P.Kane". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luckylager Posted April 15, 2016 Share Posted April 15, 2016 Uhh... People are trying to compare Pavelski to Toews? Lmao No contest. Double face palm with a nose pick booger flick, to burp sneeze fart. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kloubek Posted April 15, 2016 Share Posted April 15, 2016 Panarin was passed over in the draft completely. Look at him now. Gems can be found in any round, or even outside the draft. Byfuglien: 245th Hasek: 207th Lundqvist: 205th Gaudreau: 104th Alfredsson: 133rd Hornqvist: 230th. List goes on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Long Posted April 15, 2016 Share Posted April 15, 2016 1 hour ago, Gollumpus said: As with the 2002 selections, why would certain teams wait until so late in the draft to select these guys? The answer is, they didn't know that these guys would turn out to be as good as they did. These teams got lucky, and then developed their prospects well. regards, G. Sure, of course. But the reason I think our drafting has a chance of getting better is all the scouts on the same page - when Benning asks them to put guys forward with a certain character trait or ability, it will be less subjective than before. That's gotta help. But it also shows how important Utica is for actual development. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gollumpus Posted April 15, 2016 Share Posted April 15, 2016 3 minutes ago, Bob Long said: Sure, of course. But the reason I think our drafting has a chance of getting better is all the scouts on the same page - when Benning asks them to put guys forward with a certain character trait or ability, it will be less subjective than before. That's gotta help. But it also shows how important Utica is for actual development. Agreed. The point I was making is that some people around here view these things in isolation. They look at a team's periodic successes in the later rounds of a draft and the view becomes, "That team is great at drafting at all levels and always have been!". They do not bother to consider the other picks that team had selected in that draft, or the time it took them to develop the prospect who is considered to be a gem. regards, G. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck Surfer Posted April 15, 2016 Share Posted April 15, 2016 3 hours ago, Alflives said: Nice post. Why with this evidence do posters continue to argue that it doesn't matter where we draft? Never mind that! Pavelski was picked 205th. Jamie Benn in the 5th round. Datsyuk & Zetterberg??? It proves its a waste of resources drafting forwards early because all star forwards can be reliably found in later rounds. And we can concentrate on mining for D... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harvey Spector Posted April 15, 2016 Share Posted April 15, 2016 2 hours ago, Gollumpus said: FYI: I'm not griping at you Harvey. When I see a comment along the lines of, "Well, team X has great scouting because they can find players in the lower rounds of the draft", I then go and look at who they drafted in the year under discussion. I also do a general survey of other, later round gems (if any) who they didn't take, but perhaps should have, assuming that they were available. If indeed the team in question was so adept at scouting and drafting, then why didn't they also select these other gems, or, why did they select some duds in the rounds prior to finally taking the later round gem? Why risk that someone else has also done their homework and scouted that prospect? How valuable a prospect did the Sharks believe that Clowe would be since they waited until the 6th round to draft him? Pretty much any team can scout prospects (insert <Except for the Canucks> here). I'm on the side of of luck being of more importance in drafting in the later rounds (excluding instances like Bure and Datsyuk), followed by good development to take off the rough edges. There is also team needs which would have to be taken into account as to why they drafted a certain player in a particular round and therefore passed on a possible "gem". "Z"'s list: Wisniewski - 2002, selected in the 5th rnd (156th). The only other Hawks' pick from this year who has had NHL success was some scrub named Keith (2nd rnd). McElhinney - 2002, selected in the 6th rnd (176th). The only other Flames' pick who have had NHL success from this year are Nystrom (1st rnd) and Lombardi (3rd rnd). Ranger - 2002, selected in the 6th rnd (183rd). The only other picks by the Lightning who have had NHL success from this year are Norrena (7th rnd) and Craig (8th rnd). Ranger is currently playing in the Swiss league. Max Talbot - 2002, selected in the 8th end (234th). The only other Penguins' picks who have had NHL success from this year are Whitney (1st) and Christensen (3rd rnd), (Is there any reason why Chicago, the Flames, the Lightning, or any team other than the Penns didn't select Talbot before the 8th round? And why did the Penns wait that long?) Wellwood - 2001, selected in the 5th rnd (134th). The only other Leafs' picks from this year who have had NHL success were Colaiacovo (1st rnd) and Harrison (3rd rnd). Pilar (2nd rnd) and Bell (3rd rnd) are borderline successes in that they are close to the 100 game mark (my arbitrary marker for "success" in the NHL). Bieksa - 2001, selected in the 5th rnd (151st). The only other Canucks' pick from this year who has had NHL success is R. J. Umberger. (1st rnd). Mike Smith - 2001, selected in the 5th rnd (161st). The only other Stars pick from this year who has had NHL success is Jussi Jokinen (6th rnd). The interesting thing about Smith is that he was the second goalie selected by the Stars in that draft, behind Jason Bacashihua (1st rnd). Seidenberg - 2001, selected in the 6th rnd (172nd). The only other Flyers' picks from this year who have had NHL success are Woywika (1st rnd) and Sharp (3rd rnd), Clowe - 2001, selected in the 6th rnd (175th). The only other Sharks' picks from this year who have had NHL success are Goc (1st) and Ehrhoff (4th). As an FYI, the Sharks also drafted two guys named Patzold (4th rnd) and Plihal (5th rnd) ahead of Clowe. Zidlicky - 2001, selected in the 6th rnd (176th). The only other Rangers picks from this year who have had NHL success are Tyutin (2nd rnd), Murray (3rd rnd), Hollweg (8th rnd, 238th). Jussi Jokinen - 2001, selected in the 6th round (192nd). The only other Stars pick from this year who has had NHL success is Mike Smith (5th rnd). (See above) Laich - 2001, selected in the 6th rnd (193rd). The only other Senators picks from this year who have had NHL success are Spezza (1st rnd) Gleason (1st rnd), Emery (4th rnd), Schubert (4th rnd), Bochenski (7th rnd), Oduya - 2001, selected in the 7th rnd (221st). The only other Capitols' pick from this year who has had some NHL success is Paetsch (1st rnd), Parenteau - 2001, selected way down in the 9th round (264th). The only other Ducks' pick who has had NHL success from this draft year was Martin Gerber (8th rnd, 232 OA). As with the 2002 selections, why would certain teams wait until so late in the draft to select these guys? The answer is, they didn't know that these guys would turn out to be as good as they did. These teams got lucky, and then developed their prospects well. regards, G. You make some really good points and I agree with you. The reason why teams wait so long to pick certain guys is those guys obviously have flaws in their game, or their too small, or whatever reason. That's why they get passed on until later rounds. Of course nobody knew they would turn out to be studs. If they knew that 100% they'd all be first round picks!! The facts are these. It's pretty simple. 18 year old players are hard to evaluate. Why? Because a lot can change in 5 years. Were you the same person at 23 as you were at 18? Guys change, physically, emotionally, whatever. So to say with pin point accuracy that someone will be a star is virtually impossible unless it's a can't miss prospect. And those guys are obviously the guys that go in the top half of the first round. But even then I showed in another post that around 22% of first OVERALL picks have flopped over the last 45 years. So even guys right at the top of the draft sometimes flop, even harder than some guys picked in the later rounds. As for your point that if a GM can pick a stud in the 7th round them why were his previous choices prior to that pick all flops? Well because like I said these are 18 year old players and even Scotty Bowman and Ken Holland have picked duds. Even the best scouts don't hit on all their picks. Yes to a degree it is luck. Luck does play a factor. But most of the time the guys who get lucky are usually the same guys that people think are the top scouts and GM's in the league. Like I said you have to be good to be lucky. Luck doesn't just come from a hope and a prayer. There is some semblance of reason as to why these GM's pick certain guys, how they may feel that with proper coaching and development they could turn into a player. I highly doubt GM's just throw darts at a board when they are picking their later round choices. If so then you might as well hire a monkey to be as scout and pick the players. It would be the same thing and would save the team lots of money. At the end of the day these scouts and GM's do get lucky there is no doubt. And even the best screw up and pick duds, even in the earlier rounds. But if you look at the averages, it's usually the better scouts and GM's that are picking the gems in the later rounds. Because they have a knack in judging future talent when others don't see it in that same player. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alflives Posted April 15, 2016 Share Posted April 15, 2016 18 minutes ago, Canuck Surfer said: Never mind that! Pavelski was picked 205th. Jamie Benn in the 5th round. Datsyuk & Zetterberg??? It proves its a waste of resources drafting forwards early because all star forwards can be reliably found in later rounds. And we can concentrate on mining for D... Of course! I will stick to the draft I understand - BEER Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Boudreau Posted April 15, 2016 Share Posted April 15, 2016 16 hours ago, Harvey Spector said: Tate Olson. Jim Benning can stil find riches in the 7th round... He is a projected bottom lair D man. Don't think anybody is calling him a star yet. If he even becomes a bottom pair D man as a NHL regular it's a big win. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Boudreau Posted April 15, 2016 Share Posted April 15, 2016 5 hours ago, Bob Long said: College guys are biting into the stats as well - over same time period the number of guys who played in college went from 20 to 30% of all players in the NHL, which means more guys never making it out of the OHL, WHL, etc. I don't know the Euro stats but I bet thats making it harder on the scouting department too, you have to have a lot of eyes everywhere. That's why I really like all the travel Benning does, to go see a lot of guys for himself. I don't think we've ever had a GM that traveled this much to assess players. Benning has made it no secret his favorite time of the year is the draft. He doesn't like free agency or the trade deadline as much probably because you have to talk to players and their agents to convince them to be traded or signed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptKirk888 Posted April 15, 2016 Share Posted April 15, 2016 2 hours ago, Alflives said: Of course! I will stick to the draft I understand - BEER Alf , I understand earth is your 2nd language but the spelling is draught for beer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alflives Posted April 15, 2016 Share Posted April 15, 2016 4 minutes ago, CaptKirk888 said: Alf , I understand earth is your 2nd language but the spelling is draught for beer. Hey! Thanks! I thought that meant no rain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptKirk888 Posted April 15, 2016 Share Posted April 15, 2016 2 minutes ago, Alflives said: Hey! Thanks! I thought that meant no rain. Haha no rain means more beer (draught), or drought. Tho English teacher I not! Have good one bud (no beer pun intended). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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