Olli Juolevi | #48 | D

[Kanukfanatic]

1 hour ago, Jester13 said:

First bolded part: does it matter how it was prompted?

 

Second long bolded part: I'm not sure why you keep arguing against +/- as if anyone is going off that alone to talk about his dificiencies, which I stated in my post that you quoted no one is doing. I also said that pretty well every single statistical measure for hockey has its flaws and doesn't tell the whole story. +/- has its flaws, as we all know, but it's merely one measure out of many that posters are using to make a point, and no one should be throwing the baby out with the bathwater as a measure of performance simply because it has some flaws, as it still can be an indication of poor defensive play, either as a team or as a single player. Yet, for some reason, it keeps getting ignored and brushed off, or posters (sorry, but you're included in this next comment) keep going back to claiming that posters are using it alone, which they're not. 

 

Your comprehension is poor.

 

The +/- stat used in small sample sizes means nothing. You don't seem to be able to understand that. Just keep going pal lol

 

 

Edit: I don't find your posts useful and now they are just negative and argumentative. I will do us both a favour and not read them anymore. 

Edited August 9, 2019 by Kanukfanatic

[J.I.A.H.N]

2 hours ago, Ray_Cathode said:

You did not read the specific context of what I was responding to.  I was responding to a post that claimed that -1 per game was not a bad +/- for a first line defenceman. It is bad, it is terrible. The post I responded to was generic, not specific to Juolevi.  

I have no problem waiting to see how Juolevi turns out.  But I am unwilling to pronounce that his initial showing was wonderful as many have claimed - it wasn't. He was strong gong forward, good on the PP, but awful when defending. I had seen him play in the World Juniors and some of his games in Finland and read reports of those games - what I was watching in Utica was an entirely different player than I had seen in those other venues. My speculation was that he was perhaps hurt because he was repeatedly being walked on his left side and seemed to labor on his pivots - that had not happened in the OHL junior, the Finnish league, nor at the world junior.

Look, I want Olli to turn out, but I'm not willing to fool myself with regard to his AHL performance to date.  Read that? TO DATE.

Sorry, I miss-read it

 

Points understood...…..and accepted 

 

Funny thing while reading your comments, it came to me that a player could be on for 40+ PP goals, and have a -12 rating, which when you look at the 2 are entirely different stats, which suggest entirely different things. I wonder if a player had those stats, would he be considered a good player?

 

We might label him a PP specialist, or bad on Even strength goals, but would he be considered a good player? 

 

I would suggest he was...……….

 

So, my question would be, do we know how many actual goals for and against Juolevi was on for...…….and against

 

I am sure there is  an analytic for that...just not sure which one. 

[Jester13]

26 minutes ago, Kanukfanatic said:

Your comprehension is poor.

 

The +/- stat used in small sample sizes means nothing. You don't seem to be able to understand that. Just keep going pal lol

 

 

Edit: I don't find your posts useful and now they are just negative and argumentative. I will do us both a favour and not read them anymore. 

With how hypocritical your post is, in addition to your last in response to me, it's probably a good idea that you don't engage further.

[MrCanuck94]

@everyone

[Jester13]

1 hour ago, theo5789 said:

It was simply said that there may be a trend. They know that he needs to work on his defensive game (as many agree), but it was also acknowledged that not all of the minuses were his fault. Therefore a team struggling out of the gate (with a D partner that also didn't have a great +/- even after Juolevi went down) could certainly inflate (deflate?) that stat. I think it would be different if he was asked where OJ needs to improve and he specifically mentioned +/- or if simply asked about OJ's progress and talked about how he would like to see him improve on his +/-.

 

Perhaps the posts that I've been referring to have used other metrics and not solely +/-, but may have emphasized the +/- as their definitive point. Eye test is generally good, but it depends on who's looking. Some look at players with a different mindset like specifically looking out for the errors and thus sees those errors and more glaring when other players could be in the same boat but just not looked at with the same mindset. This is why I put more value into someone like Benning who suggested that OJ likely would've seen some games this past season had he not been injured because I trust that he will be seeing his team with a more impartial view. This doesn't mean he thinks he's NHL ready, but he's not as far off as some make it seem.

 

Points don't tell the whole story either, but Utica didn't have a lot of firepower and he was putting up numbers. He had to have touched the puck at least for a secondary assist unlike a minus where another player could cough up the puck and there's a goal against where Juolevi is not part of the play at all. You also get minuses for shorthanded goals against, but not pluses for PP points. 

 

So in the end, Juolevi needs to improve on the battles in the corners and just generally playing the body (he's never really played this type of game before, but I see him progressing here like Edler did), but he's particularly strong a controlled zone exits and has decent offensive instincts. A couple of injuries set him back maybe a year or year and a half, but assuming he can get past these issues, then I see no reason for him not improve on the defensive side as he gains more experience at the pro level.

Reading between the lines and it's fairly plausible that the comment of "trend" was a euphemism. Regardless, you and I are both on the same page, as I agree with everything you've said above. The whole +/- thing is always taken with a grain of salt, or at least should be. I guess where we differ is that I haven't read anyone using it as a definitive point, anymore than someone using his point total from last year. But also, I think last year he may have showed in some games, but only because our blueline was sooooo bad. This year will be much tougher to crack, especially after his latest setback. Fingers crossed, tho.

 

I think OJs biggest setback, tho, was gaining so much weight a few years ago. I think it made him really slow, which allowed guys at camp to walk by him wide with ease, which I think hurt his confidence/ego, and which can snowball on a young player. I give him mad credit for persevering, and I'm glad that he has been and is still, because my longest concern with him has been his attitude, and in that I mean confidence and intensity, which go hand in hand. I've always had a sense with OJ that he may have had in the past a slight sense of entitlement and that he felt like he deserved to be playing in the NHL sooner than what has so far transpired (it can't be easy for some guys like OJ, or Dahlen for that matter, to see their friends and ex-teammates ripping it up, knowing inside they should be in the NHL as well, getting close, and then getting injured multiple times, etc.) But there's no doubt that he's got the tools and high, high potential to play in the NHL, and I think the coaching staff in Utica doesn't get enough credit for their development, because with OJ in particular, his attitude seems much better, he's pushing hard through another big setback and wanting so badly to make it, from what it seems. It's now just a matter of staying healthy and continuing to work with his coaches on certain areas. 

[theo5789]

7 minutes ago, Jester13 said:

Reading between the lines and it's fairly plausible that the comment of "trend" was a euphemism. Regardless, you and I are both on the same page, as I agree with everything you've said above. The whole +/- thing is always taken with a grain of salt, or at least should be. I guess where we differ is that I haven't read anyone using it as a definitive point, anymore than someone using his point total from last year. But also, I think last year he may have showed in some games, but only because our blueline was sooooo bad. This year will be much tougher to crack, especially after his latest setback. Fingers crossed, tho.

 

I think OJs biggest setback, tho, was gaining so much weight a few years ago. I think it made him really slow, which allowed guys at camp to walk by him wide with ease, which I think hurt his confidence/ego, and which can snowball on a young player. I give him mad credit for persevering, and I'm glad that he has been and is still, because my longest concern with him has been his attitude, and in that I mean confidence and intensity, which go hand in hand. I've always had a sense with OJ that he may have had in the past a slight sense of entitlement and that he felt like he deserved to be playing in the NHL sooner than what has so far transpired (it can't be easy for some guys like OJ, or Dahlen for that matter, to see their friends and ex-teammates ripping it up, knowing inside they should be in the NHL as well, getting close, and then getting injured multiple times, etc.) But there's no doubt that he's got the tools and high, high potential to play in the NHL, and I think the coaching staff in Utica doesn't get enough credit for their development, because with OJ in particular, his attitude seems much better, he's pushing hard through another big setback and wanting so badly to make it, from what it seems. It's now just a matter of staying healthy and continuing to work with his coaches on certain areas. 

You'd have to go back to just around the time before he got injured. It was a talking point then and has lingered to today, just not as glaring now. For many, it's the only stat they can use because there's not much out there beyond the eye test (and it can be biased).

 

I can see the weight gain being an issue, much like how it affected Virtanen when he tried bulking up. I think OJ felt pressured to get to 200 lbs or whatever because many were suggesting that's the weight he needed to get to be effective (much like what people thought Virtanen needed to do to become a power forward). Virtanen has bounced back from that and is working towards improving every season. I think Juolevi will also require progression, but I think his IQ is better than Virtanen's so he's likely to translate faster.

 

Staying healthy and simply getting the games in will go a long way towards his development. It may be a tougher lineup to crack this season, but Edler and Tanev (Benn moves to the right side) have injury issues that could allow an opening should Juolevi be deserving at that time. I don't expect Juolevi to be considered until around January though just to get his feet under him and as you say to build confidence.

[Smashian Kassian]

I just think he need a prolonged period of good health. Hes developed to the point of being on the cusp, he just needs to play and feel comfortable.

 

Olli has always struck me as a guy who maybe needs a bit to adjust, but someone who can adjust & then succeed. And also someone who can raise his game when its needed the most.

 

He'll probably come in and it won't be an oil painting, there will be some gaffe's defensively, but there will also be smooth passes, smart plays, and an opportunity for a successful learning curve. 

 

Hard to imagine him making the team out of camp, but no doubt this is the year he plays. 

[MrCanuck94]

6 hours ago, Jester13 said:

So, again, here is a good example as to what I'm talking about. I'm not worked up at all, so if you're reading that from my posts, well, that's an error in your judgement of my post(s), and this is the kind of knee-jerk reaction/interpretation towards a poster that shows even the slightest hint of dissenting opinion from the vocal OJ supporters in talking about. 

 

But also, no one is taking a small sample size and +/- to make such judgment, but instead  are using it in addition to coaches comments, actual first-hand close watching of OJ, previous years assessment of play, etc., to make fair arguments for the specific area that OJ needs work: foot speed, defensive awareness, body positioning, etc. But these assessments are brushed off and posters are flamed for saying anything critical of OJ at all. Why is this so? Why not try to address posters' comments about how the coaching staff recognized the trend of OJ? Why is it not possible to admit that OJ has had ups in good play, but also downs and setbacks (moreso than ups, even)? 

 

Man, I remember when I commented once, many pages ago, about my concern for OJs seemingly lackadaisical play, and how I believe it's something he will need to work on - to play with more of a sense of urgency to help him with things like body position - to make the NHL, and people jumped on me loudly as if I was slamming him, when the reality was that I was merely trying to chat about that visible part of his game. 

 

So, yes, he's a prospect that needs quite a lot more development, which I think everyone knows, so I guess this is why I just can't understand why some posters get flamed so much for trying to talk about it? Is it just a continuation of some who wanted MT vs the rest? Maybe it's the tact of some of the critics? 

I guess it's the positive posters getting triggered when some posters call him a bust or bring up Tkachuk etc and critical posters get triggered when some posters call him a sure shot top 3 guy (or anything similar).

 

I post positively and that's because I don't think he needs a lot more development (but of course I could be wrong). I think he has taken steps each year to become better and more NHL ready (although not as much as we'd hope from a 5th pick I admit as it would be nice if he was already in the NHL making an impact). His flaws you have posted are a fair argument but I'm hoping that his injuries are what was holding him back (for example, how Karlsson's injuries made him look like an AHL defender in the playoffs).

 

Nonetheless, no one knows how he'll turn out but let's all hope for the best! I'm hoping he is on the Canucks roster by Christmas.

[Rollieo Del Fuego]

9 hours ago, Jester13 said:

Reading between the lines and it's fairly plausible that the comment of "trend" was a euphemism. Regardless, you and I are both on the same page, as I agree with everything you've said above. The whole +/- thing is always taken with a grain of salt, or at least should be. I guess where we differ is that I haven't read anyone using it as a definitive point, anymore than someone using his point total from last year. But also, I think last year he may have showed in some games, but only because our blueline was sooooo bad. This year will be much tougher to crack, especially after his latest setback. Fingers crossed, tho.

 

I think OJs biggest setback, tho, was gaining so much weight a few years ago. I think it made him really slow, which allowed guys at camp to walk by him wide with ease, which I think hurt his confidence/ego, and which can snowball on a young player. I give him mad credit for persevering, and I'm glad that he has been and is still, because my longest concern with him has been his attitude, and in that I mean confidence and intensity, which go hand in hand. I've always had a sense with OJ that he may have had in the past a slight sense of entitlement and that he felt like he deserved to be playing in the NHL sooner than what has so far transpired (it can't be easy for some guys like OJ, or Dahlen for that matter, to see their friends and ex-teammates ripping it up, knowing inside they should be in the NHL as well, getting close, and then getting injured multiple times, etc.) But there's no doubt that he's got the tools and high, high potential to play in the NHL, and I think the coaching staff in Utica doesn't get enough credit for their development, because with OJ in particular, his attitude seems much better, he's pushing hard through another big setback and wanting so badly to make it, from what it seems. It's now just a matter of staying healthy and continuing to work with his coaches on certain areas. 

Having had a few meniscus tears....I can tell you that without a doubt, they slow you down and make it hard to turn well before you even know you have a tear...

 

Give Oli 3-4 months this year to get to were he should be...and then make judgements if you want...I believe we will see a much more mobile D.

[Jtutino]

On 8/7/2019 at 10:50 PM, Googlie said:

He had 13 points in 18 games, not 18 points.

 

8 of his 13 were PP points, thus not factoring on plus minus stats.

 

He had 5 points at 5 on 5, was a -12, so was on the ice for 17 goals at 5 on 5 (or maybe 4 on 4 or 3 on 3. - the advanced stats don't differentiate), so conceding 1 goal per game at even strength when playing as the top defenseman isn't indicative of a shoddy defenseman at all.

 

Just sayin'

read the bold.

13 hours ago, Googlie said:

You need to take your own advice!!

Show me where I claimed that being - 1 per game was ok.  

I claimed that conceding 1 even strength goal per game while playing against the top line was acceptable - implicit in that was the expectation that he would be on the ice for an even strength goal for Utica in some 25% to 30% of these games (5 ES goals for and 15 against in those 18 games comprising the sample - as has been subsequently pointed out, he was on the ice for at least 2 shorties against, which form part of his -12 in the +/-  column)

 

And as has been said earlier, we all accept that OJ needs to work on his defensive awareness (look back in the Comets thread and you will see that I have been critical during those 18 games). But we are all united in our hope that he arrives at camp 100% healthy and competes for a roster spot with the big club - but won't be upset if he starts the season - and finishes it -  in the AHL.

 

[Jester13]

7 hours ago, MrCanuck94 said:

I guess it's the positive posters getting triggered when some posters call him a bust or bring up Tkachuk etc and critical posters get triggered when some posters call him a sure shot top 3 guy (or anything similar).

 

I post positively and that's because I don't think he needs a lot more development (but of course I could be wrong). I think he has taken steps each year to become better and more NHL ready (although not as much as we'd hope from a 5th pick I admit as it would be nice if he was already in the NHL making an impact). His flaws you have posted are a fair argument but I'm hoping that his injuries are what was holding him back (for example, how Karlsson's injuries made him look like an AHL defender in the playoffs).

 

Nonetheless, no one knows how he'll turn out but let's all hope for the best! I'm hoping he is on the Canucks roster by Christmas.

Very true. I've only recently been posting about one side being triggered, but it certainly is a case of The Two Triggers, I think, using loaded language to stir the pot. The point to highlight is that there are multiple posters from both sides guilty of creating such a volatile thread. But, this is CDC, after all. I wish it wasn't like this, is all, and that posters could try to see others' side of things and discuss, rather than always trying to get their points across and talking over each other. It would be such a benefit to CDC if posters could try to "steel man" each other's arguments, which is challenging but so, so useful in discussion. 

 

I'm hoping he can crack the lineup asap, but I'm at the point that I've moved on and will simply wait and have it all unfold. He's been through a lot, and if he does make it through all of this, make the lineup, and become the impact player we all think, and hope, he can be, then I will think even more highly of him as a person and not just as a player. We need a Dman like him - I see him as Edler 2.0 (smart, smooth, offensive instinct with some D gaffs here and there, but a solid, steady presence that can help lead us to glory one day).

 

2 minutes ago, Rollieo Del Fuego said:

Having had a few meniscus tears....I can tell you that without a doubt, they slow you down and make it hard to turn well before you even know you have a tear...

 

Give Oli 3-4 months this year to get to were he should be...and then make judgements if you want...I believe we will see a much more mobile D.

It's definitely going to be super challenging for him with this latest injury, not only physically but also mentally. My judgments are merely based on what has so far transpired with his career. I, too, believe we will one day see a more mobile D, but I'm just of the opinion that it will take longer than a few months to not only be back to his old self, but also better, which he will need to be in order to make the next step. He was off for a long time with an injury that arguably sets players back the hardest (as anyone with a knee injury knows), so I personally just don't see him making the team this year, unless we're hit with the injury bug again this year and many spots open and he's actually ready. But I also predict that we will be a healthier blue line this year, which will keep OJ in Utica for the year leading their blue line; something I think is best for him, anyways.

[Jtutino]

On 8/2/2019 at 11:28 AM, higgyfan said:

Considering that Hunter used him as his shutdown guy (while also sheltering a rookie), I have to agree.  He also was quite the offensive/defensive beast in the playoffs in his last year in Jrs.

Who was the rookie he was sheltering? Evan Bouchard? The kid put up more points as a 16yr old then Olli did in his d+1 season. 

[Fred65]

17 hours ago, theo5789 said:

I like Sautner, but he's very replaceable. If he's lucky, he gets a Biega type of career.

 

In a couple years time, we might have Tryamkin back, Rathbone will be knocking at the door and Juolevi hopefully a regular NHLer. There won't be room here for him in the future unless he's happy being a regular call up or like I mentioned earlier being in a Biega role collecting a NHL paycheque and be a practice guy that is ready to step in at a moment's notice.

 

If another team gives him a better opportunity, then I wish him the best of luck.

Sure every team want all stars at all positions, but, there's a Salary Cap to consider which means you MUST have a bunch of lessor players to fill out the roster. So you need players that can bring the max for the least expense. Currently we have too many journeymen at too high a cost. While this is not good but acceptable because we haven't reached the point where the likes of EP, BB QH and TD want big money. Maybe players like Sautner may fill that description

[theo5789]

30 minutes ago, Fred65 said:

Sure every team want all stars at all positions, but, there's a Salary Cap to consider which means you MUST have a bunch of lessor players to fill out the roster. So you need players that can bring the max for the least expense. Currently we have too many journeymen at too high a cost. While this is not good but acceptable because we haven't reached the point where the likes of EP, BB QH and TD want big money. Maybe players like Sautner may fill that description

That's why I think Sautner needs to make a Biega-like career. I wasn't aware that Tryamkin, Rathbone, and Juolevi are all stars yet. Our cap is fine now and in a couple of years, we will have guys stepping in on ELCs or cheap bridge deals until they establish themselves. Sautner may fit the bill, but we are worried about that this season and we may likely add all three of those guys (and they will be on cheaper contracts) to push Sautner out unless he locks a 7/8 dman role or remains a Utica call up option if he doesn't mind that role for us.

 

I get what you're saying and Sautner is good cheap depth, but those players are easily replaceable as well. Don't forget we have Brisebois, Chatfield, Teves, Rafferty, etc as guys that could soon be taking over this "spot" that Sautner has. I think for Sautner to get a full time bottom pairing role, he would probably have to be on a team like Nashville that has a powerhouse top 4. Right now we need to balance our D minutes and Sautner, while steady, simply shouldn't be taking on too many minutes at the NHL level or he will be exposed.

[Rollieo Del Fuego]

1 hour ago, Jester13 said:

Very true. I've only recently been posting about one side being triggered, but it certainly is a case of The Two Triggers, I think, using loaded language to stir the pot. The point to highlight is that there are multiple posters from both sides guilty of creating such a volatile thread. But, this is CDC, after all. I wish it wasn't like this, is all, and that posters could try to see others' side of things and discuss, rather than always trying to get their points across and talking over each other. It would be such a benefit to CDC if posters could try to "steel man" each other's arguments, which is challenging but so, so useful in discussion. 

 

I'm hoping he can crack the lineup asap, but I'm at the point that I've moved on and will simply wait and have it all unfold. He's been through a lot, and if he does make it through all of this, make the lineup, and become the impact player we all think, and hope, he can be, then I will think even more highly of him as a person and not just as a player. We need a Dman like him - I see him as Edler 2.0 (smart, smooth, offensive instinct with some D gaffs here and there, but a solid, steady presence that can help lead us to glory one day).

 

It's definitely going to be super challenging for him with this latest injury, not only physically but also mentally. My judgments are merely based on what has so far transpired with his career. I, too, believe we will one day see a more mobile D, but I'm just of the opinion that it will take longer than a few months to not only be back to his old self, but also better, which he will need to be in order to make the next step. He was off for a long time with an injury that arguably sets players back the hardest (as anyone with a knee injury knows), so I personally just don't see him making the team this year, unless we're hit with the injury bug again this year and many spots open and he's actually ready. But I also predict that we will be a healthier blue line this year, which will keep OJ in Utica for the year leading their blue line; something I think is best for him, anyways.

I hear you...but I think that having those lingering type injuries taken care of to the point were you realize that you can turn quickly and without pain ...will increase his physicallity and enable a much brighter head space....

 

I still say Xmas is when we should see him at the latest....

[Dazzle]

18 hours ago, Jester13 said:

To further my point, I haven't read anyone simply using +/- alone to back up their opinion - which is a shared opinion of coaches and many others - but rather one statistic/point. I think everyone can agree that all statistical measures have their flaws, but as someone has mentioned with +/-, even coaches are saying there was a noticeable trend that the stat what showing with OJ and that they are working on that aspect especially of his game. This is a fair measure and point to make, yet there are many posters who continuously ignore it and simply brush is off to deflect any ostensible "criticism" of where OJ is at in his readiness to play in the NHL. Again, not every statistical measure is perfect, but when +/- for one player seems to be abnormally worse than others, well, this is when some flags go up that there might be a hole in said player's game - hence the coach's comments. 

 

I don't think we'll ever have the touchiness towards Hughes' deficiencies simply because there's no controversy behind the pick, which I believe is likely the root cause of the division between posters - there's a lot of justification towards the OJ pick, and it can sometimes get in the way of fair discussion around areas of OJs game. 

Umm.. you must not have read this then because this, according to you, "triggered" fans of Juolevi - and for good reason.

 

On 8/7/2019 at 8:21 PM, Pete M said:

nothing against OJ... however, there were good players on the team that were "+" players ....they too played on this crappy team. OJ still has some development to do with his "D" game.

[Jester13]

2 minutes ago, Dazzle said:

Umm.. you must not have read this then because this, according to you, "triggered" fans of Juolevi - and for good reason.

 

Just because a poster uses it, does not mean it's the only point they're going off, which I've stated multiple times now, even in the post you quoted.

[Kanukfanatic]

2 hours ago, Jtutino said:

read the bold.

 

You go read your own bolded.

 

Just because a D man is on the ice for 1 goal against at 5v5 each game that does not mean he is minus 1 each game.

 

I will try to simplify this for you: Vancouver Canucks vs. Calgary Flames game - 

 

Vancouver scores 10 goals. Calgary scores 1 goal. Score 10-1. OJ is on the ice for the Calgary goal at 5v5. That is part I of the words you yourself bolded.

 

OJ probably won't be -1 that game because he will probably be on the ice for a Canuck goal. Part II of the words you yourself bolded.

 

Hence, Googlie DID NOT say being -1 per game is ok.

 

You are the one that needs to "read the bold" you pointed out.

Edited August 9, 2019 by Kanukfanatic

[higgyfan]

2 hours ago, Jtutino said:

Who was the rookie he was sheltering? Evan Bouchard? The kid put up more points as a 16yr old then Olli did in his d+1 season. 

I can't remember who Hunter had him paired with, but he certainly atributed OJs dip in offence due to his sheltering a rookie; hence playing a more defensive role.

[Fred65]

4 hours ago, theo5789 said:

That's why I think Sautner needs to make a Biega-like career. I wasn't aware that Tryamkin, Rathbone, and Juolevi are all stars yet. Our cap is fine now and in a couple of years, we will have guys stepping in on ELCs or cheap bridge deals until they establish themselves. Sautner may fit the bill, but we are worried about that this season and we may likely add all three of those guys (and they will be on cheaper contracts) to push Sautner out unless he locks a 7/8 dman role or remains a Utica call up option if he doesn't mind that role for us.

 

I get what you're saying and Sautner is good cheap depth, but those players are easily replaceable as well. Don't forget we have Brisebois, Chatfield, Teves, Rafferty, etc as guys that could soon be taking over this "spot" that Sautner has. I think for Sautner to get a full time bottom pairing role, he would probably have to be on a team like Nashville that has a powerhouse top 4. Right now we need to balance our D minutes and Sautner, while steady, simply shouldn't be taking on too many minutes at the NHL level or he will be exposed.

Fair point. I'm hopeful that we use our own farm hands rather than over pay in Free Agency. I watched Sautner and he didn't add a lot but he didn't give up a lot either. JB has to look long term rather than the immediate, IMO. We haven't always done a great job or signing FA's cost or term