HerrDrFunk Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 You know how I know the team is doing well? We're arguing about the quality of an individual player instead of the entire team/coaching staff/management. Enjoy it while it lasts boys and girls. These are good times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hammertime Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 6 minutes ago, darkpoet said: I'm not opposed to keeping him. Just the $ and term need to not be stupid. Erik Karlsson has already won a Norris trophy. His cap hit is $6.5 M Duncan Keith's won multiple Norris trophies. His cap hit is $5.5 M Is Guddy close to be either of these players? Will he be in a couple years? If you believe he'll be even HALF of what those guys are then go ahead and open your wallet. But I'm holding firm on the fact you can't pay a guy north of $5M a year just because "he's tough". You have to be very good or exceptional in at least one area of the game to be making that kind of money as a defenceman. That's just me. Not everyone agrees, obviously! If Erik Karlsson and Duncan Keith went UFA right now how much do you think teams around the league would offer them for their services???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
butters Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 44 minutes ago, darkpoet said: To be honest, Sbisa deserved every bit of poo flinging sent his way. As you said, (and I also mantioned) he's starting to look a lot Gudder out there. So yeah, why harp on a guy when he's playing well? No he didn't. He was developing. Do you think its good to crap on players until they pan out? Since you were wrong about sbisa, maybe you be reflecting on your appraisal skills rather than finding a new whipping boy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HerrDrFunk Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 Just now, hammertime said: If Erik Karlsson and Duncan Keith went UFA right now how much do you think teams around the league would offer them for their services???? Karlsson gets 8+ Keith probably finds himself in the 6.5-7.5 range. So yeah, comparing contracts that were signed even a few years ago is pointless. Salaries have ballooned in the last few years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darkpoet Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 2 minutes ago, Kragar said: They both signed their contracts over 4 yrs ago? I forgot to delete that part of my post after edit. They're multiple Norris Trophy winners. Not to imply everyone making over $5M is a Norris caliber player, but as I said, for this kind of money, at least one area of your game has to be top shelf. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Kane Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 1 minute ago, HerrDrFunk said: Karlsson gets 8+ Keith probably finds himself in the 6.5-7.5 range. So yeah, comparing contracts that were signed even a few years ago is pointless. Salaries have ballooned in the last few years. Top 5 NHL defenseman, and arguably best playoff player in the last 8 years only 6.5 - 7.5? Subban got 9M. Byfuglien got 7.6M. Just for perspective. Recent contracts. EK and Keith >>>>>> those two. Karlsson will get around that, probably more. 9.5-11M Keith would easily get 8-9.5, on a shorter term deal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vancan2233 Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 13 minutes ago, darkpoet said: They guy said it costs an arm and a leg to get a guy with size (he didn't even mention skill) on your back end. I gave an example proving that to not be unequivocally true. Sure, he'll make more money eventually. If he ears it. Do you think Gudbranson is a $5M defenceman? Be honest See here is the problem no two teams will or would agree on a players worth or need for the team. Two teams could have a 2 million dollar difference in their evaluation of the said players value. All we have is a rumor of what he was asking in Florida. Regardless Gudbranson was never drafted for his offensives upside , he was always going to be that big shutdown defense man. Is he worth 5 million if in the eyes of man paying him he is then yes. What I think and you think is of no value, because we have no control of the situation. All I know is there was a few unhappy players in Florida with him being traded that has to have value no matter what. The players are seeing something the fan is not. He has to be doing something right on the ice to hold such praise that the flawed analytics can not calculate and fans are not trained to notice with the eye test. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darkpoet Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 27 minutes ago, butters said: No he didn't. He was developing. Do you think its good to crap on players until they pan out? Since you were wrong about sbisa, maybe you be reflecting on your appraisal skills rather than finding a new whipping boy Of course he did. He was serving up pucks in his own slot almost every game. Then he did the unthinkable (not really) - he went and saw a sports psychologist. The guy always had the tools but if you're not right in the head it'll never come together. It seems this has helped him immensely and his game is turning around, and it happened quite quickly. I wasn't wrong about him. He was awful. Now he's not. Correct on both accounts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HerrDrFunk Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 3 minutes ago, Patrick Kane said: Top 5 NHL defenseman, and arguably best playoff player in the last 8 years only 6.5 - 7.5? Okay, probably closer to 7.5. Keith is a fantastic defenseman, no doubt about it. But he just doesn't put up those insanely sexy point totals as a Karlsson, Burns or (when healthy) Subban. Edit: Barring Keith's Conn Smyth year where he went into beastmode for the playoffs. But that's not what he does game in and game out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ihatetomatoes Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 11 hours ago, FijianCanuck said: Trade him away for a pick. This. With Stecher and Tanev ahead of him on the depth chart for the right side it makes zero sense to sign him to a 5mil per year contract. The argument could be made to trade Tanev and keep Gubranson as Tanev will probably be passed his prime by the time we are truly competitive again but I'd still rather keep Tanev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kragar Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 Just now, darkpoet said: I forgot to delete that part of my post after edit. They're multiple Norris Trophy winners. Not to imply everyone making over $5M is a Norris caliber player, but as I said, for this ind of money, at least one area of your game has to be top shelf. My point was inflation and NHL cap changes. As someone above pointed out, Karlsson and Keith would be getting much more (and their actual current salary is in the 7-8M range, IIRC). Gud's road this year has not been smooth, and I had hoped to see better from him. But Hutton has struggled, with or without Gud alongside, and if he was injured all this time as some have said, then he should get a little slack. When he gets back, and if he has trouble showing us what many expected of him, I would hope to see a shorter prove-it contract with a mild raise, and avert the concerns the OP has. But if JB feels he needs to sign for more and/or longer, I'll trust his judgment. There's plenty of time for Guddy to grow into what is expected, and having that size is nice. Side thought: there's all kinds of talk on how long it takes power forwards to develop. Is there a similar development path experienced by larger D's too? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aGENT Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 I see certain user's awareness of current contract rates and player valuations are right on par with their understanding of analytics.... This thread is painful to read. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vancan2233 Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 44 minutes ago, Aircool said: ALL his analytics suggest he is a 3rd pairing defenseman. ALL OF THEM. Go read some articles on it instead of living in an echo chamber, since I probably can't trust you to interpret the analytics yourself. Some things you may be interested to read are that his possession numbers were the 2nd worst on Florida ahead of Willie Mitchell (because he was OLD, not because of his style of play)... People counter his offensive production by saying that, oh get all these D-zone starts. He had one of, if not, the longest average shift time on Florida. This means one of two things, it can't mean anything else... Either he got into the offensive zone, because the shifts were long and he did his defensive duty properly, and he still didn't produce. OR he failed at his defensive duties and his shifts were long because he couldn't help get the puck out. There are so many arguments to be made for why Gudbranson is a fraud. The only arguments I ever hear for him are the following: - He's young, he's still developing (while he has 6 years experience.) - He's big and throws a hard hit (so that means he can play defense?) - He was a 3rd overall pick (an off the board one, that everyone was shocked by) People even use his lack of offense as justification for his defense. Because they just assume that since he went 3rd overall, and his offense is SO BAD, he must be AMAZING at defense, and then they are like.. and HE'S GIANT! People treat this guy like he's one half of Chara (the defensive half). More like he's a variation on Yannick Weber, Sucks at everything and has a good check instead of a shot from the point. What is it about this analytics that you think is so good? they are as flawed as the thousands of people recording the data. There is no standard to the data. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Provost Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 If he isn't signed to a reasonable deal by the expansion draft... expose him. That simple really. You don't get to care what he cost you in the past, only what works best for the team going forward. Exposing Sbisa and signing Gudbranson to a 5+ million dollar contract with term is worse than exposing an unsigned player in return for protecting a guy who is "at worst" a pretty good 3rd pairing D and possibly can keep up being a solid 2nd pairing guy with many of the same attributes. I am not a Sbisa lover and think he will regress to his norm... but the contract was never an issue for me because NHL level defencemen are expensive and hard to come by. He fits in pretty well as a succession plan stop gap for Juolevi. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darkpoet Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 1 minute ago, vancan2233 said: See here is the problem no two teams will or would agree on a players worth or need for the team. Two teams could have a 2 million dollar difference in their evaluation of the said players value. All we have is a rumor of what he was asking in Florida. Regardless Gudbranson was never drafted for his offensives upside , he was always going to be that big shutdown defense man. Is he worth 5 million if in the eyes of man paying him he is then yes. What I think and you think is of no value, because we have no control of the situation. All I know is there was a few unhappy players in Florida with him being traded that has to have value no matter what. The players are seeing something the fan is not. He has to be doing something right on the ice to hold such praise that the flawed analytics can not calculate and fans are not trained to notice with the eye test. As always, something is worth as much as someone's willing to pay for it. I totally agree with that. I'm not Benning. He has the job to make these decisions. All I can do is voice my opinion, just like everyone else in here. Look at it this way, the highest paid players on your team should always be your best players. Giving Gudbranson $5+M a year would make him the highest paid Defenceman on this team. Is he our best defenceman? Or does he have the capability to be better than a number of other guys we currently have that are outplaying him? IMO that needs to be very carefully pondered on before paying him that much money. This team needs scoring, not defenceman. Like I said, the deal was almost a clandestine bonus because it got rid of a stuck up little runt. The 2nd pick hurts but that's what it took to get it done. If it were me, I'd try and flip him for some help up front. The caveat being, that the rumour of him wanting that big of a raise was false, and he'd be willing to stick around here for about what he's making now. I mean if he really wants to be a part of something on the way up and enjoys the city/team mates why not? On the other hand, if money talks, then listen to what that says. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Where'd Luongo? Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 14 minutes ago, HerrDrFunk said: You know how I know the team is doing well? We're arguing about the quality of an individual player instead of the entire team/coaching staff/management. Enjoy it while it lasts boys and girls. These are good times. I was thinking the same thing! Gudbranson is going to be a real gud player for us in the coming years. He's young, he may have flaws, but in gud time he will be a real gud defensive and pretty gud offensive player. Offensively it will come mostly from assists but I'm kinda surprised he doesn't have a gud slapshot! For such a big guy it would be real gud for him and the team if he worked on his slapper to make it real gud. Either way, he deserve's a gud contract because he has the potential to turn into a real gud player. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darkpoet Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 12 minutes ago, Kragar said: When he gets back, and if he has trouble showing us what many expected of him, I would hope to see a shorter prove-it contract with a mild raise, and avert the concerns the OP has. Yep, I thought about a bridge contract and although you could say it's a bit unusual to do with a guy who has played this many games, it's also the exact reason why it may be the most prudent route to go with him. He's making $3.5 now 2 years / $8M He gets another cool million in his pocket, and a chance to prove he's worth any more than that. If it doesn't work out you're not carrying yet another anchor on your roster, and then you can flip him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aGENT Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 1 minute ago, darkpoet said: Giving Gudbranson $5+M a year would make him the highest paid Defenceman on this team. Is he our best defenceman? Or does he have the capability to be better than a number of other guys we currently have that are outplaying him? Yeah... that's not how that works... Our current 'highest paid' D signed his extension in 2012. That's ages ago in terms of cap inflation and salary demands. It also included an NTC. Without that and or on the free market, Edler likely would have got closer to $6m+ in 2012. It's 2017. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harvey Spector Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 I believe Sbisa was overpaid until this year. Now he looks like a bargain. Considering Gudbranson is 2 years younger than Sbisa and was a top 3 pick maybe there is a possibility he hasn't reached his ceiling yet? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darkpoet Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 15 minutes ago, J.R. said: I see certain user's awareness of current contract rates and player valuations are right on par with their understanding of analytics.... This thread is painful to read. Yet you're choosing to participate. Glutton for punishment eh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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