D. Sedin: "I know people say we're too old, we're done"

[ForsbergTheGreat]

11 minutes ago, J.R. said:

 

 

You need to start understanding why people are calling you out for making constant excuses for them.  We have 5 other players that could fill in on a top line role instead of the twins.

 

“They are too old to be counted on offensively”

-Then stop giving them the top opportunity.

 

“They are still being played as the top line because there is no one else to supplant them” 

-Does it matter when it still results in loss, it's not like playing them 19 minutes a game is resulting in wins.

 

Again the whole no one else can replace them is just an assumption that has no factual evidence to support.  We haven't tried moving the twins down the line up.  I don't by it, Bo horvat's progression sky rocketed last year when thrust into a bigger role.  Stating that is really just another excuse, made from your own opinion, you should really stop presenting it like fact. 

[aGENT]

2 minutes ago, ForsbergTheGreat said:

You need to start understanding why people are calling you out for making constant excuses for them.  We have 5 other players that could fill in on a top line role instead of the twins.

 

“They are too old to be counted on offensively”

-Then stop giving them the top opportunity.

 

“They are still being played as the top line because there is no one else to supplant them” 

-Does it matter when it still results in loss, it's not like playing them 19 minutes a game is resulting in wins.

 

Again the whole no one else can replace them is just an assumption that has no factual evidence to support.  We haven't tried moving the twins down the line up.  I don't by it, Bo horvat's progression sky rocketed last year when thrust into a bigger role.  Stating that is really just another excuse, made from your own opinion, you should really stop presenting it like fact. 

Horvat alone doesn't make a line. People need to accept that we're simply not a very good (or healthy) team regardless of how you re-shuffle the deck chairs.

[bertuzzi44fan]

Not just about their lack of scoring either,their positional and decision making are very poor this season too.They used to play strong along the boards but now seem to get knocked around so easily.

[189lb enforcers?]

4 minutes ago, bertuzzi44fan said:

Not just about their lack of scoring either,their positional and decision making are very poor this season too.They used to play strong along the boards but now seem to get knocked around so easily.

I see you are a minus magnet.

 

This means you must not be much of a sheep on here, as seen by the non biased post here. 

Keep it up, or the ship of fools will tip over with all the super fans here sitting on one side. 

[Nucker 67]

In a way I'll be relieved when the Canucks are mathematically eliminated from the playoffs. Maybe then management will do what's right for the team. (sell)

I just want to see them make the necessary moves (trade vets for picks/prospects, build around Horvat, replace Willie after the season).

No more trying to find the Sedins the perfect winger or bandaids in hopes of making the playoffs.

 

 

[Westcoasting]

The last goal was just horrible, Henrik took a slow skate over to the boards and a weak wave at the puck with his stick. Then Stecher waving a stick at the puck in front of the net... Edler there too doing nothing. Third goal Sbisa floated in right past Malkin and waved his stick at the puck. No one takes the body anymore? All Sedin had to do was skate hard and directly at the puck, or follow Penguins player and pin him up immediately. Stecher and/or Edler could have taken the man and tied him up and no scoring would have happened. The third goal all Sbisa had to do was take out Malkin or tie him up. 

 

Good times....

[ForsbergTheGreat]

36 minutes ago, J.R. said:

Horvat alone doesn't make a line. People need to accept that we're simply not a very good (or healthy) team regardless of how you re-shuffle the deck chairs.

Sven's produced the exact same .54 p/pg rate as Daniel despite averaging 3 minutes less per game. 

 

Hansen is at a .50 p/pg rate,  Granlund Sutter, Eriksson.  are options as well.

 

You need to accept that there are other options.  If playing the sedins so much was resulting in wins you might have an argument, but when it's not, there is no reason not to try something else. 

 

"The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results"

 

 

 

 

[EdgarM]

2 minutes ago, ForsbergTheGreat said:

Sven's produced the exact same .54 p/pg rate as Daniel despite averaging 3 minutes less per game. 

 

Hansen is at a .50 p/pg rate,  Granlund Sutter, Eriksson.  are options as well.

 

You need to accept that there are other options.  If playing the sedins so much was resulting in wins you might have an argument, but when it's not, there is no reason not to try something else. 

 

"The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results"

 

 

 

 

He just doesn't get it. he keeps saying these guys are not good enough. Just like Bo wasn't or Tryampkin or Stecher. The Sedins are pretty much getting outplayed by every player on the roster but old JR seems to think that because the opposing coaches still have quality defenders on them that they are STILL something special. Any fool could see how bad they are playing right now and if other coaches think they are a threat then they are fools too. By that 3 minute shift they showed last night I would be playing my top line against them too. I just want them gone once and for all and make whoever is left the top line because I really think that they couldn't do any worse.

[aGENT]

5 minutes ago, ForsbergTheGreat said:

Sven's produced the exact same .54 p/pg rate as Daniel despite averaging 3 minutes less per game. 

 

Hansen is at a .50 p/pg rate,  Granlund Sutter, Eriksson.  are options as well.

 

You need to accept that there are other options.  If playing the sedins so much was resulting in wins you might have an argument, but when it's not, there is no reason not to try something else. 

 

"The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results"

 

 

 

 

We basically have (when healthy) 3 second line equivelants who are used situationally according to their strengths and weaknesses. People focus FAR too much on line labels.

 

The Sedins strengths are offense (even if diminished) and weakness are speed/defense. Hence they get used in primarily offensive situations. This is not rocket science. And yeah, Daniel especially, is not having a 'great' year even considering his age etc. And I already agree that they should be getting less PP time/opportunity (which they were until Baer and now Horvat got hurt recently).

 

But this constant whining about them being 'gifted' offensive starts is just ridiculous. They're 36 year old offensive players who were never fast and are slowing down. And due to that aren't very good defensively anymore because they simply aren't fast enough to recover/chase. Are you going to have them taking high QOC D zone starts?! The concept is ridiculous. They're EXACTLY the type of players you give o-zone starts and (diminished) PP time to.

 

By all means (and I've said this numerous times) Baer is an 'off' fit with Horvat and would likely perform better with more offensive opportunity/easier usage. That basically means the Sedin line where I'm not sure he'd be a fit either but by all means, we could give him a whirl there in the game of musical wingers when he gets healthy. But really if he doesn't work there or we'd prefer someone else (Hansen IMO) on their line, where else do you play him?

 

Hansen IMO should be on the Sedin line (and/or cloned to play RW on all three lines).

 

Sutter is playing exactly where he should be.

 

Eriksson could play on either Sutter or Horvat's line but clearly he's struggling to acclimate and is also suffering from crappy and injured team-itis along with most of the team.

 

Love Granlund but he's the definition of middle 6.

 

Horvat should (and has) be metered out more PP time and correspondingly see his TOI rise.

 

16 minutes ago, EdgarM said:

He just doesn't get it. he keeps saying these guys are not good enough. Just like Bo wasn't or Tryampkin or Stecher. The Sedins are pretty much getting outplayed by every player on the roster but old JR seems to think that because the opposing coaches still have quality defenders on them that they are STILL something special. Any fool could see how bad they are playing right now and if other coaches think they are a threat then they are fools too. By that 3 minute shift they showed last night I would be playing my top line against them too. I just want them gone once and for all and make whoever is left the top line because I really think that they couldn't do any worse.

Speaking of not getting it.. not remotely what I've said. 

[Nathancanuck]

2 hours ago, ForsbergTheGreat said:

Sven's produced the exact same .54 p/pg rate as Daniel despite averaging 3 minutes less per game. 

 

Hansen is at a .50 p/pg rate,  Granlund Sutter, Eriksson.  are options as well.

 

You need to accept that there are other options.  If playing the sedins so much was resulting in wins you might have an argument, but when it's not, there is no reason not to try something else. 

 

"The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results"

 

 

 

 

That means Willie is insane

[brownky]

1 minute ago, Nathancanuck said:

That means Willie is insane

I hope this isn't your first experience with that thought.

[Johnny Shotgun]

On 2017-02-13 at 2:10 PM, Toyotasfan said:

I'd like the Granlund experiment to continue for awhile, still think Erikson is a bad fit for them, otherwise Hansen should be on that line.

Erikkson is a total bust.  He got himself a good gig retire in your late thirties at 6 mil a year.  He has enough time and energy I think to start a real full time job while playing for the Canucks.  Pump gas or something show us you still have some heart.

[alfstonker]

13 hours ago, ForsbergTheGreat said:

Sven's produced the exact same .54 p/pg rate as Daniel despite averaging 3 minutes less per game. 

 

Hansen is at a .50 p/pg rate,  Granlund Sutter, Eriksson.  are options as well.

 

You need to accept that there are other options.  If playing the sedins so much was resulting in wins you might have an argument, but when it's not, there is no reason not to try something else. 

 

"The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results"

 

 

 

 

As I have said to you often you constantly post as if we were the Jets, Leafs or Buffalo.

 

The Sedins are played so much because we lack "players of their type" i.e. players who are predominantly offensive players who can hold the puck in the o-zone. There is not one of the players you mention play the way the Sedins play and while they may have similar p/gm rates, these points are achieved from different styles.

 

Most if not all of our forwards prefer/need space while I would argue the strength of the Sedins is they almost prefer things tight. No coach would play the Sedins less (not even Torts) because a more open game would put too much pressure on our D and consequently on the other lines.

 

That is why I want the Sedins to retire because while they are in the team (irrespective of line) they prevent us from adopting the fast, skilled, high compete style it is obvious on many occasions Willie favours, from 2nd to 4th line.

 

Even your snappy last line is flawed. Desjardins is honing a system to suit the players he has (including the Sedins) Chopping and changing or "rearranging the deckchairs" won't help that. The fact is, due to our paucity of back-up resources we are constantly stopped in our tracks by injuries to the few key players we have. The fact is with everyone fit we are a borderline wild card team and no better than that.

 

We do get different results, that is what youth and players who are past it lead to - inconsistency. But you seem to be implying they never play well and they never win - bollocks. They have played well on this road trip while not always getting the breaks, even against the Pens and without 3 of our key players we contested well up until the first goal and even after that they never threw in the towel.

[ForsbergTheGreat]

1 hour ago, alfstonker said:

As I have said to you often you constantly post as if we were the Jets, Leafs or Buffalo.

 

Are you pro tanker?  You do realize you top picks isn't the only way to win. You want the sedins to retire yet state they are our only offensive forwards and must be played.  You must be in the tank crowd. 

 

All i I hear is excuses "wd has to do this because.... " what ever he's doing isn't working.  The sedins haven't benefited from it and the team is 2 points from being 28th in the league. When you're backed into a corner you don't keep doing the same thing that put you into your current position. You shake things up. Doesn't matter wd has less than 3 month. I guess it's only fair for him to go down with the ship in what ever way he wants. 

[alfstonker]

1 hour ago, ForsbergTheGreat said:

Are you pro tanker?  You do realize you top picks isn't the only way to win. You want the sedins to retire yet state they are our only offensive forwards and must be played.  You must be in the tank crowd. 

 

All i I hear is excuses "wd has to do this because.... " what ever he's doing isn't working.  The sedins haven't benefited from it and the team is 2 points from being 28th in the league. When you're backed into a corner you don't keep doing the same thing that put you into your current position. You shake things up. Doesn't matter wd has less than 3 month. I guess it's only fair for him to go down with the ship in what ever way he wants. 

No I'm not, I have made that clear countless times.

I have never said tank for top picks but there is a difference between having a constant conveyer belt of picks like the teams I have mentioned and having virtually zero (Canucks)

There is no conflict in saying that the Sedins must be accommodated while they are here because that is the only way to utilise them properly and wanting them not to be renewed because they are prohibiting the style we are working towards ( hopefully through promotion, UFAs and astute drafting we will have the pieces to replace them in the image of what this team/Linden aspires to.

 

I disagree, it is working, just not consistently. Given the players at our disposal and the split style of play due to the Sedins that is to be expected. I think in fact WD has over achieved.

We are not "backed into a corner" we are playing most nights above expectations and if we had a 1st line in the image of the rest of the team we would be winning most of these close games we lose. Unfortunately no Marner Matthews and Hyman for us, we will have to be more patient.

 

You say "shake things up" as if there were no consequences and this was a 2 bit pub team but then you always post from lala land.

[darkpoet]

7 hours ago, alfstonker said:

 

 

I disagree, it is working, just not consistently. Given the players at our disposal and the split style of play due to the Sedins that is to be expected. I think in fact WD has over achieved.

We are not "backed into a corner" we are playing most nights above expectations and if we had a 1st line in the image of the rest of the team we would be winning most of these close games we lose. 

 

 

I'm gonna get on board with this.
It's a complicated situation for management to navigate, no doubt, but as they say "it's mission difficult, not mission impossible"

There's so much talk about "not numbering lines" as in the 3rd line could be the 1st line on any given night. This is just spin to try and turn what are very obvious and glaring flaws on our team into "strengths" as in: alluding to depth, when in fact there isn't any.

I'm not convinced WD is "the coach" long term, but I do agree he's getting the most out of this team - and that says something large about him as a man, because players don't give you that "no quit in me" if they don't respect their coach.

Regarding your last point. I think we do have a 1st line in the image of the rest of the team. Or at least most of one. I don't think Bo Burr and Sven (or Hansen) could do worse then the Sedins are at this point, but nobody has the cajones to reign them back and put them up against lesser opponents.

People stammer abut how "Bo isn't ready" "Bo's still getting sheltered" blah blah.... well think of the flip side. He's 21 and already VERY close to being that top guy for us. Give him and shot, and then give the Sedins the sheltered assignments.

If you're going to keep the twins around this is the way to go IMO. They are still good players, just not great or elite any longer. This team desperately needs to score more goals and i think the way to do that ATM is to give the Sedins some lighter matchups and let the Bull take the Reigns so to speak. 

I know this was 6 years ago, but I don't see why we couldn't see some vintage Sedinery if they were put out against other teams 3/4th lines:

They've done enough heavy lifting for this team over the years. Time to give 'em a break.



 

[philtbc829]

I have total and complete respect and admiration for the Twins and what they have achieved....but their time is done.. despite what Dank says...I just hope they will retire as Canucks.....

[aGENT]

23 minutes ago, darkpoet said:

Regarding your last point. I think we do have a 1st line in the image of the rest of the team. Or at least most of one. I don't think Bo Burr and Sven (or Hansen) could do worse then the Sedins are at this point, but nobody has the cajones to reign them back and put them up against lesser opponents.

People stammer abut how "Bo isn't ready" "Bo's still getting sheltered" blah blah.... well think of the flip side. He's 21 and already VERY close to being that top guy for us. Give him and shot, and then give the Sedins the sheltered assignments.

I think it has just as much to do with Bo in fact thriving in a counter punching/defensive zone start role as anything else. It's basically what his entire game is built around.

 

By all means he should (and has been) get increasingly metered out PP opportunity but simply giving him more O zone starts isn't necessarily the answer. It also begs the question (referencing Alfstonker's points) of what the hell you do with the Sedins then? If you give Bo more O Zone starts, do you give them more D zone ones? That's counter productive IMO. All three lines get roughly similar 5v5 time these days as is. As I said, by all means Bo can likely handle another minute or so on the PP and the Sedins correspondingly a minute or so less.

 

Also, WD, doesn't entirely dictate the quality of their opponents, particularly on the road.

[darkpoet]

22 minutes ago, J.R. said:

I think it has just as much to do with Bo in fact thriving in a counter punching/defensive zone start role as anything else. It's basically what his entire game is built around.

 

By all means he should (and has been) get increasingly metered out PP opportunity but simply giving him more O zone starts isn't necessarily the answer. It also begs the question (referencing Alfstonker's points) of what the hell you do with the Sedins then? If you give Bo more O Zone starts, do you give them more D zone ones? That's counter productive IMO. All three lines get roughly similar 5v5 time these days as is. As I said, by all means Bo can likely handle another minute or so on the PP and the Sedins correspondingly a minute or so less.

 

Also, WD, doesn't entirely dictate the quality of their opponents, particularly on the road.

All valid points. What I'm suggesting is that they at least try.

Things aren't going to magically suss themselves out. The twins have said themselves that they're just waiting (probably begging at this point) for someone to come along and knock them down the ladder. 
I get it's not as simple as just "doing it". Sure you have matchups to navigate, especially on the road as you said, but it's not an impossibility. WD just needs to put his big boy pants on and figure it out.

As they say, if there's a will, there's a way. And as bad as this team has been at times this season you can't say for the most part, that they've lacked will.

The twins have a year left on their term. If management is looking at keeping them here and possibly even extending them, then you have to look at your options with respect to getting the most you can out of them for the remainder of their time here. It's not going to be on the top line facing opposing teams top guys night after night.

What happens next year with the possible arrival of Boeser will play into that I'm sure, along with any other players who come in and push for a spot. IMO time is of the essence. Bo has already burned his ELC, so there's a massive payday on his horizon (along with that new cap implications) and we're no better a team than when he started here, which was 200 games ago now (!) 

Time is of the essence. We need to take advantage of players, especially on ELC's, who are highly touted to make an impact as soon as possible.
Look at Chicago. Both Kane and Toews were Stanley Cup Champs by the 3rd year of their ELC. 
Keeping too many aging vets makes that more difficult but if that's part of their plan then like I said, they're just gonna have to man-up and figure it out. 



 

[aGENT]

1 minute ago, darkpoet said:

All valid points. What I'm suggesting is that they at least try.

Things aren't going to magically suss themselves out. The twins have said themselves that they're just waiting (probably begging at this point) for someone to come along and knock them down the ladder. 
I get it's not as simple as just "doing it". Sure you have matchups to navigate, especially on the road as you said, but it's not an impossibility. WD just needs to put his big boy pants on and figure it out.

As they say, if there's a will, there's a way. And as bad as this team has been at times this season you can't say for the most part, that they've lacked will.

They have a year left on their term. If management is looking at keeping them here and possibly even extending them, then you have to look at your options with respect to getting the most you can out of them for the remainder of their time here. It's not going to be on the top line facing opposing teams top guys night after night.

What happens next year with the possible arrival of Boeser will play into that I'm sure, along with any other players who come in and push for a spot. IMO time is of the essence. Bo has already burned his ELC, so there's a massive payday on his horizon (along with that new cap implications) and we're no better a team than when he started here, which was 200 games ago now (!) 

Time is of the essence. We need to take advantage of players, especially on ELC's, who are highly touted to make an impact as soon as possible.
Look at Chicago. Both Kane and Toews were Stanley Cup Champs by the 3rd year of their ELC. 
Keeping too many aging vets makes that more difficult but if that's part of their plan then like I said, they're just gonna have to man-up and figure it out. 



 

Until we have more youth pushing for top 6 spots, there's not much for WD to 'figure out'. By their age, style of play, abilities etc, the Sedins need O zone starts and PP time to remotely help this team win games.

 

With presently, Horvat and (IMO, an uncomplimentary) Baer we have only two guys young who remotely have a shot of supplanting them for PP time. And arguably, Baer's largely alone for guys it makes sense to start giving more O zone starts too.

 

All the deck chair shuffling in the world is not going to change that.

 

Yes, Boeser coming in will likely help but we still IMO need a pretty drastic trade this summer ahead of the ED for one of Edler/Tanev + one of Baer/Granlund for an upgrade at forward.