Is the Current Ownership Failing this Team?

[aGENT]

29 minutes ago, Watchincanucks said:

Sorry he missed 11 games to start, who cares he was best player preseason and did not make the team. No amount of spin you put on it is going to change that fact.

No, he didn't. He played 4 games in Utica while the Canucks played 6. The other 5 games missed were from injury.

 

Seriously, have some clue to what you're trolling on about.

 

Played 71 of a possible 77 games (injury) in his rookie year and he 'didn't make the team'. And you're complaining about spin 

 

[Baggins]

3 hours ago, canucksnihilist said:

How is Gaudette going to surprise if he isn’t on the team?  You mean in 3/4 years when there is an opening?

 

or is this the traditional “make room with injuries” plan?   So Gaudette is a bust unless beagle or sutter are significantly injured?

 

how would he actually get a chance to play in the NHL and show what he can do - this is a good example, let’s examine it and see how Gaudette might actually make the team.   

 

1. If he outshines Beagle this year at camp he is still sent down.  The team didn’t sign shiny new FAs to not play them.

2. That may or may not be the case next year - although hard to displace a proven vet when you haven’t played an NHL game - to the extent that you have to waive / trade that vet.

3.  Are injuries the only way?  So it’s development by accident as the main plan?

 

I hope I’m missing something but I just don’t understand how it can happen.   What is the actual process?

 

please advise...

You don't think he can develop further in the AHL with a call up here and there? He could certainly use some work on faceoffs.

[oldnews]

3 hours ago, canucksnihilist said:

How is Gaudette going to surprise if he isn’t on the team?  You mean in 3/4 years when there is an opening?

 

or is this the traditional “make room with injuries” plan?   So Gaudette is a bust unless beagle or sutter are significantly injured?

 

how would he actually get a chance to play in the NHL and show what he can do - this is a good example, let’s examine it and see how Gaudette might actually make the team.   

 

1. If he outshines Beagle this year at camp he is still sent down.  The team didn’t sign shiny new FAs to not play them.

2. That may or may not be the case next year - although hard to displace a proven vet when you haven’t played an NHL game - to the extent that you have to waive / trade that vet.

3.  Are injuries the only way?  So it’s development by accident as the main plan?

 

I hope I’m missing something but I just don’t understand how it can happen.   What is the actual process?

 

please advise...

Why would Gaudette be excluded for 3/4 years by virtue of a Beagle signing?  That's pretty dramatic imo.

 

I think you're making a strange assumption - that Gaudette is somehow earmarked to be a depth shutdown center?  Why in the world would that be the case?

 

I also think it's still patently obvious that there remains a center position open to competition on this team.

 

Horvat, Sutter, Beagle.   The team has a lot of flexibility in terms of what it does with that 4th C spot.  Who is the 4th center (by that I don't mean 4th line center) at this point? 

 

Is it that hard to conceive that Gaudette could still command a center role - even in the shorter term vs.......whom?   Granlund, Schaller?  It's not yet clear at all how the lineup shakes down by opening night, let alone in the slightly longer term.

 

There is no real conflict between a Beagle signing and Gaudette.  Gaudette is young - perfectly able to play a winger role while he develops the more mature, harder aspects of his game (ie faceoffs and the finer points of defending at the NHL level).   Moreover, his 'ceiling' is certainly not limited to a shutdown center - he lead the NCAA in scoring for crying out loud.

 

 

 

 

[Adarsh Sant]

 

[ChuckNORRIS4Cup]

 

FAIL

[oldnews]

I just don't think Aquilini is very skilled where hiring and handling managers is concerned.

 

I mean - putting Gillis and Tortorella together?  That was clearly and evidently not a Gillis decision - and clearly a horrible one from day 1.   Was the result unpredictable?  I don't think so.

 

Now - not sure how a separation of Linden and Benning was created/managed, but something about it smells like clumsy managing again.

[189lb enforcers?]

51 minutes ago, ChuckNORRIS4Cup said:

 

FAIL

Wasn’t it a...

Vancouver Fail:

That drove him and his lady away? 

 

[Watchincanucks]

So there you have it or is Dan Murphy a bad source too. For all the Benning defenders, you seriously gonna keep defending these crap moves when no other hockey person thinks it was a good idea for the Canucks to tie up 8 mill and 10 years total on 4th line including our own president? I already heard your bot 6 top 6 argument and it’s crap. 12 forwards spots can be filled by any players you want, you don’t have to slot any one type of player in any one spot. Sure it’s nice to have good defensive forwards which we have, Sutter, Eriksson, Granlund, Gaunce, and Gaudette has also been known for his 2 way play. Would love to see Gaudette and maybe even Virtanen earn some time on pk, it’s how you develop young players. Yep I know they don’t block anyone blah blah blah. I could live with any one signing but all 3 just set back rebuild big time. Only saving grace would be Benning trading some vets now! 

[bluesman60]

If the ownership is looking for a quick fix just to make the playoffs and an early exit, they are no different than past owners and this team will not win a SC.

The way to build a winner is to draft some elite talent and develop the prospects. When your young guys are ready to step up and make a run, that is the time that you sign a Travare (like TO). 

Prospects like Pettersson, Hughes etc are not the biggest guys and need time to get physically mature plus in Pettersson's case....adjust to the NHL ice size and tempo of the game. Horvat and Boeser are physically strong enough and were able to step right in but that is not normally how guys enter the NHL. Virtanen is physically strong but has needed some development time...same goes for Kole Lind, Gasovich(sp?) etc. You cant just stock up on prospects and then rush them into the lineup.

If the plan is to stock the 4th and some of the 3rd lines with vets so that the young players can play top 6, great.

If the plan is to throw the good work done so far out the door, abandon the rebuild, draft high end prospects and focus mostly on making gate for the owner, it will be another 45 years of mediocrity unless the team gets lucky and finds a 'Bure' drafting 20th each year. 

I have stuck by this team since the day they entered the NHL, been through a lot of lows and some highs but what bothered me was owners trading away guys like Mike Peca and Cam Neely just so the team could make the playoffs. That approach hasn't worked, still no SC...close and the owners made a ton of gate but still not the result that everyone wants. 

This team needs to continue to build through the draft and get the first overall for once....the lottery cant burn us forever. getting a Matthews or a Laine etc would move this rebuild along much quicker but we are not going to get that type of player by finishing 17th or higher just so the owner can make money.

[bluesman60]

39 minutes ago, Watchincanucks said:

So there you have it or is Dan Murphy a bad source too. For all the Benning defenders, you seriously gonna keep defending these crap moves when no other hockey person thinks it was a good idea for the Canucks to tie up 8 mill and 10 years total on 4th line including our own president? I already heard your bot 6 top 6 argument and it’s crap. 12 forwards spots can be filled by any players you want, you don’t have to slot any one type of player in any one spot. Sure it’s nice to have good defensive forwards which we have, Sutter, Eriksson, Granlund, Gaunce, and Gaudette has also been known for his 2 way play. Would love to see Gaudette and maybe even Virtanen earn some time on pk, it’s how you develop young players. Yep I know they don’t block anyone blah blah blah. I could live with any one signing but all 3 just set back rebuild big time. Only saving grace would be Benning trading some vets now! 

If the vets are stealing icetime from the young guys on the top 2 lines, then yes it is hurting the development of the young guys. But, if the vets are brought in to keep the opposition honest and work bottom 6 while the young guys play top minutes on the first two lines...that is a good thing.

[Viper007]

41 minutes ago, Watchincanucks said:

So there you have it or is Dan Murphy a bad source too. For all the Benning defenders, you seriously gonna keep defending these crap moves when no other hockey person thinks it was a good idea for the Canucks to tie up 8 mill and 10 years total on 4th line including our own president? I already heard your bot 6 top 6 argument and it’s crap. 12 forwards spots can be filled by any players you want, you don’t have to slot any one type of player in any one spot. Sure it’s nice to have good defensive forwards which we have, Sutter, Eriksson, Granlund, Gaunce, and Gaudette has also been known for his 2 way play. Would love to see Gaudette and maybe even Virtanen earn some time on pk, it’s how you develop young players. Yep I know they don’t block anyone blah blah blah. I could live with any one signing but all 3 just set back rebuild big time. Only saving grace would be Benning trading some vets now! 

So according to you .... we should try Goldobin as a PKer if he isn't good enough to be in the top 6 role.  Is that what I'm hearing?  You need players to be in specific roles to make a team.  Not just fill your top 12 fowards with young players who YOU want on the team.  You listed those good defensive forwards that were on the team last year.  Last I checked the team wasn't very good on the PK last year.  So you want it to be the same again??  Isn't that the definition of insanity?

[canucksnihilist]

6 hours ago, stawns said:

Do you seriously think AG is better than Stanley Cup Winner and top 5 faceoff guy Jay Beagle?  C'mon man.

 

AG has the raw tools, but he looked exactly that, raw, last season.  He's still not a lock to even have an NHL career yet.

no i don't seriously think that at all.

 

my question is:  how would gaudette make the team in the next few years?

[canucksnihilist]

5 hours ago, EdgarM said:

We are not even at camp yet to see where everyone is at. Look how long it has taken Gaunce and to a lesser extent, Virtanen, to show they belong in the NHL. We only seen a small example of what Gaudette can do last year. He did OK but I didn't see any kind of Bo/Boes type of dazzle right off the bat. He is like many of our OTHER young prospects who need to prove themselves worthy of taking a roster spot. Goldobin comes to mind as a similar player that needs to show he belongs or has worked on the areas of his game which needs work to show the coach he is ready.

You are right, it may take an injury or two for him to make the line up, an NHL reality. I would much rather have a Gaudette waiting in the wings compared to a Kaput or a Magma.

If he does not make it out of camp, the coaches will still be able to see his progress in the minors just like every other prospect we have.

 

 

ok so maybe giving kids changes when injuries happen is common practice.

 

I'm not saying there is a huge problem, but i'm wondering how he could make the team - and I guess the plan is to have injuries...  which is OK but not very proactive.

 

[canucksnihilist]

5 hours ago, aGENT said:

What a load.

 

If either or both Dahlen/Gaudette significantly out play any of Gagner, Granlund, Baer, Goldobin, Leipsic etc, they'll be on the team this season. It might not be right out of camp (though it could be) but they'll be here this year if that happens.

ya its a load all right.

 

if the new FAs get outplayed what happens then?  nothing, right?  It has to do with financial management and not just who is ready - so who can be waived and who can't etc etc.  the generic earn a spot argument is just downright silly.  it never happens, or rarely.

 

my point and question is not to complain but to figure out:  What does the process look like for these players to actually make the team in the next few years.  and assuming that more FAs are signed next year too, which is extremely likely?  besides just wishful thinking, how does it actually work and how can it actually work.  I am just having a hard time seeing it.

 

 

[Gurn]

53 minutes ago, Watchincanucks said:

you seriously gonna keep defending these crap moves when no other hockey person thinks it was a good idea for the Canucks to tie up 8 mill and 10 years total on 4th line

Please provide proof that " no other hockey person thinks it was a good idea"  . And if you find a link to one person remember that you said "no other person" so one person agreeing with you is just spin.

[canucksnihilist]

4 hours ago, Baggins said:

You don't think he can develop further in the AHL with a call up here and there? He could certainly use some work on faceoffs.

He probably can - but a call up here and there isn't usually enough - or it just takes a long time.  And I'm not saying he deserves to be on the team even - but if he does how does it actually work?   Would the team have a choice between trading a UFA they just signed and keeping him in the minors.

 

I mean maybe a lot of teams are that way - they are so deep that their minor league teams are stoked full of prospects that could be playing in the NHL.  I think that would be great - I just think that right now the budding AHL team would be way more fun to watch than the NHL team.  haha!

[higgyfan]

7 minutes ago, canucksnihilist said:

no i don't seriously think that at all.

 

my question is:  how would gaudette make the team in the next few years?

Beagle is a 4th C and that's all he'll ever be.  Gaudette will have plenty of opportunities to show that he can become a top notch 3C while he develops in Utica.  He will be an excellent replacement for Sutter; maybe as soon as the TD or sometime next season.

[canucksnihilist]

3 hours ago, oldnews said:

Why would Gaudette be excluded for 3/4 years by virtue of a Beagle signing?  That's pretty dramatic imo.

 

I think you're making a strange assumption - that Gaudette is somehow earmarked to be a depth shutdown center?  Why in the world would that be the case?

 

I also think it's still patently obvious that there remains a center position open to competition on this team.

 

Horvat, Sutter, Beagle.   The team has a lot of flexibility in terms of what it does with that 4th C spot.  Who is the 4th center (by that I don't mean 4th line center) at this point? 

 

Is it that hard to conceive that Gaudette could still command a center role - even in the shorter term vs.......whom?   Granlund, Schaller?  It's not yet clear at all how the lineup shakes down by opening night, let alone in the slightly longer term.

 

There is no real conflict between a Beagle signing and Gaudette.  Gaudette is young - perfectly able to play a winger role while he develops the more mature, harder aspects of his game (ie faceoffs and the finer points of defending at the NHL level).   Moreover, his 'ceiling' is certainly not limited to a shutdown center - he lead the NCAA in scoring for crying out loud.

 

 

 

 

I just see a lot of contracts that will be hard to move.  that is the root of my comments.  and the consequence is that players won't develop as quickly, nor play in the NHL as quickly as they could.  will they still do so, yes - that wasn't my point though.  I believe they will all eventually make it if they deserve to.

 

 

[canucksnihilist]

2 minutes ago, higgyfan said:

Beagle is a 4th C and that's all he'll ever be.  Gaudette will have plenty of opportunities to show that he can become a top notch 3C while he develops in Utica.  He will be an excellent replacement for Sutter; maybe as soon as the TD or sometime next season.

right - so that is a good reply.  You think that trades will have to happen in order to make it work.  

 

My rejoinder would be this:  why put yourself in a position to have to trade away valuable players (such as Sutter) by signing FAs that you can't move?  

[aGENT]

1 minute ago, canucksnihilist said:

ya its a load all right.

 

if the new FAs get outplayed what happens then?  nothing, right?  It has to do with financial management and not just who is ready - so who can be waived and who can't etc etc.  the generic earn a spot argument is just downright silly.  it never happens, or rarely.

 

my point and question is not to complain but to figure out:  What does the process look like for these players to actually make the team in the next few years.  and assuming that more FAs are signed next year too, which is extremely likely?  besides just wishful thinking, how does it actually work and how can it actually work.  I am just having a hard time seeing it.

 

 

The likelihood of that happening isn't very realistic. If you want to pin your entire argument on an unrealistic straw man, that's your perogative. It's just not a very smart one.

 

And who exactly in our prospects is competing with Beagle as a hard minutes, match up 4C anyway? Have we got a bunch of hard minutes/3rd line pest/occasional fighter guys competing with Roussel too? Who are they? Because I'm not seeing them.

 

Now a more realistic argument would be that a kid outplays say a Gagner. Or Goldobin didn't in fact figure it out this summer and gets beat out by Leipsic/Dahlen/Gaudette for his spot. Or Goldobin/Dahlen/Gaudette/Leipsic come in like gangbusters and start making Baer and/or Granlund look awfully expendable.