theo5789 Posted August 9, 2018 Share Posted August 9, 2018 2 hours ago, Puckster said: We will see who comes out, after the Camp. If the Team is committed to the Youth movement and to those that show that they belong....Goodbye Gagner/Gaunce Utica or ...... I believe the Team will be stronger for it. If you can't Trade em for a Bag of Pucks....Waive em for buy out and hope they get claimed. 24 year old Gaunce is no longer part of the youth movement? Being committed to the youth movement can also mean developing prospects in Utica and bringing them up when they are ready. If a prospect plays well, they might just win that first call up spot when injuries or whatever occurs and that is their opportunity to try and lock a spot long term. There are many ways a youth movement can happen. A camp is a showcase, it isn't indicative of who will be the best players long term. Hutton for example won a spot out of camp and he has regressed for two seasons since. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5nothincanucksohno Posted August 9, 2018 Share Posted August 9, 2018 On 8/8/2018 at 11:03 AM, Bert Diesel said: I really think that next season will be the season of two Canucks teams; Utica perhaps being equally important to the future of the team. The Utica team looks to be stacked while the big club may be harder to play against but isn't yet drastically improved. The Beagle, Roussel signings (although we can all agree were far too long) have the positive effect of making the farm team stacked. This relieves a large degree of the pressure on youngsters like Juolevi, Dahlen, Gaudette, etc. from jumping right into significant NHL roles. When injuries occur, we can see how these guys are progressing and that adds some excitement to next season. I'd be really interested in watching the Utica games next year as they will be almost more intriguing. This being said, there is a potential roster crunch looming. With all the bodies that require waivers to go down to Utica, Benning may consider a trade or he may lose someone valuable. From a pure asset management standpoint, i think that certain players are far more likely to be claimed than others. I think the likelihood of a waiver claim goes something like this: Leipsic 80% he will be taken (also 9 points in 14 games as a Canuck)Goldobin 70% (too much offensive potential, someone is likely to give him a shot)Granlund 50% (pretty solid season in 2016; reasonable contract)Hutton 45% (teams might like his upside; contract might scare them away)Biega 40% (some team might like him as a depth guy)Gaunce 25% (not very physical and can’t score)Boucher 20% (Not proven in the NHL)Gagner 15% (Isn’t really effective and has negative value= if he got claimed it would be a positive for Vancouver)Archibald 10% (Not really an NHL player) It will help if someone gets put on injured reserved early in the season; could prevent someone being lost on waivers. Here’s how I hope it shakes down for the 23 man roster: 1. Marky 2. Nilsson 3. Boeser 4. Horvat 5. Baertschi 6. Eriksson 7. Sutter 8. Virtanen 9. Roussel 10. Beagle 11. Schaller 12. Leipsic 13. Petterson 14. Edler 15. Tanev 16. Gudbranson 17. Stecher 18. Del Zotto 19. Pouliot 20. Hutton 21. Goldobin 22. Granlund 23. Biega Bubble/Utica/Waived gaunce= waived (who would take him with so little offensive production) Gagner=Waived (I hope they do this, nobody would claim his contract anyways and he is the least effective forward on the team) Boucher= Waived Archibald= Waived Demko=Utica Gaudette= Utica Juolevi=Utica Dahlen= Utica Motte= Utica Lind/Palmu/Gadjovich/Chatfield/Brisebois= Utica Dipietro= Juniors To summarize: waiving Gagner will prevent them from losing one of Granlund, Goldobin or Leipsic. Out of that list I would definitely keep Leipsic and prefer to see what the potential Goldobin has. Totally agree - logic states that they should waive Gagner. Hopefully Goldy and Leipsic come to camp and force their way into the line-up (i.e. make management's job easy). Also agree that Gaunce is not getting claimed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theo5789 Posted August 9, 2018 Share Posted August 9, 2018 9 minutes ago, NUCKER67 said: Baertschi - Horvat - Boeser Eriksson - Sutter - Pettersson Leipsic - Beagle - Granlund Roussel - Gagner - Virtanen Goldobin Schaller - IR Edler - Stecher Del Zotto - Tanev Hutton - Gudbranson Pouliot Markstrom Nilsson Why does anyone need to be waived? You're missing Gaunce and Biega who need to clear waivers (amongst others as well, but less significant). So some will need to be waived for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PuckYa Posted August 9, 2018 Share Posted August 9, 2018 23 hours ago, theo5789 said: Is he ready for the NHL full time? If he gets claimed, he has to remain on the NHL club. Teams finalizing rosters might not have room for a project to continue to develop on their NHL team. Corrado seemed promising (as a bottom pairing guy) until Toronto claimed him and had no use for him and ruined his development. A guy like Duclair who is also 22 year old player with lots of offensive potential is maybe a season away from being waiver fodder and he's been riding on his one good 44 points season. I personally don't believe it's such a sure thing for Goldobin to be claimed. Granlund 90% (utility guy, can fit many roles for any team lacking anything) Pouliot 70% (dmen are high valued, 1 year deal, shown glimpses of excellent play) Hutton 60% (ditto to Pouliot, except contract might scare some teams away) Gagner 50% (Blackhawks have shown interest and might grab him for free, but a team needing scoring would add a veteran with 50 point totals over a project) Leipsic 30% (glimpses of good play given good minutes, but not much else, dime a dozen player) Goldobin 30% (similar to Leipsic, if he wasn't 22, I might have him at 10-20% based on what he has done so far) Gaunce 30% (defensive guys are underrated and more of these guys are claimed on waivers, but he doesn't excel at anything quite yet) Biega 10% (good depth option, but unlikely to be claimed at the start of the season) Archibald 10% (ditto to Biega) Boucher 0% (shown too little, career AHLer with some call ups if enough injuries occur) I think you're under estimating Leipsic... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nucker 67 Posted August 9, 2018 Share Posted August 9, 2018 2 minutes ago, theo5789 said: You're missing Gaunce and Biega who need to clear waivers (amongst others as well, but less significant). So some will need to be waived for sure. I didn't include them because I'm assuming they missed the boat (passed over by better prospects) and will play in Utica for the foreseeable future. Maybe Biega comes up for some games late in the season, but if we lose him on waivers........nah, who am I kidding, no one will pick him up lol If they call up Gaunce over Dahlen, I'll just have to shake my head. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theo5789 Posted August 9, 2018 Share Posted August 9, 2018 1 minute ago, CoolCanucklehead said: I think you're under estimating Leipsic... He's 24 years old with 25 points in 64 games to his name. He's on his 4th NHL team now. He had an impressive 9 points in 14 games with us when put on the top unit. It's up to him to continue this play and win a spot out of camp. If he doesn't, why should another team take him on forcing his new team to push another player out? Remember he was only recently traded for a depth AHL dman. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theo5789 Posted August 9, 2018 Share Posted August 9, 2018 1 minute ago, NUCKER67 said: I didn't include them because I'm assuming they missed the boat (passed over by better prospects) and will play in Utica for the foreseeable future. Maybe Biega comes up for some games late in the season, but if we lose him on waivers........nah, who am I kidding, no one will pick him up lol If they call up Gaunce over Dahlen, I'll just have to shake my head. The question posed was "why does anyone need to be waived" and I answered that there are. If a bottom 6 guy is injured, why would we call up Dahlen over Gaunce? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob_Zepp Posted August 9, 2018 Share Posted August 9, 2018 43 minutes ago, Bert Diesel said: It's very infrequent that a player of consequence is picked up on waivers you are correct. However, in all the years of following the team (over 30), I can't remember an era in which there were so many young players with promise breaking in (over the next two seasons). Of course, not all of them will pan out but the anxiety of the fan base is somewhat warranted and was confirmed by the free agent additions. Say what you will about those pick ups but they have squeezed the bottom of the roster to the point that someone decent may be lost. Also, when guys like Beagle and Roussel are signed, you know they have a guaranteed roster spot because the optics of waiving them look terrible. Remember, this is the off-season and there's not much else to talk about so get off your high horse and stop crapping on people who are worried about losing a Goldobin or Leipsic. There has been very little to cheer about over the past few seasons and players with upside have been fun to watch and given some hope. Optics are fine if the players are outplayed....ask Burmistrov. No one is on a high horse - some random dude calls me ignorant and I responded. I have been around hockey pretty much my entire life and have a clue how waivers work. I also know that if a team that was 25th overall is worried about players that cannot make that team being all snapped up if they are waived - it is simply a silly worry as it almost never happens. Further, agreed on a need to have something to cheer about - and isn't having a team that is improving and has to cut some players...even players that might even still have NHL miles in them...a good thing? Isn't having competition for spots a good thing and sign of the team getting better? Besides being ignorant and on my high horse, please explain the concern in terms of what has happened to other teams in the same situation as the Canucks. During the post-camp, pre regular season time, EVERY team is nearly at full capacity with both contracts and NHL spots and to pick anyone up means waiving something themselves - it isn't as easy to grab someone even if you really like them. I like Goldy. I like a lot of the bubble guys. Point is, IF they are not ready to compete for an NHL spot on a team that isn't ready for the playoffs then that simply is what it is and the Canucks need to waive them, trade them or perhaps even simply lose them as they seemingly have better options. IT IS going to happen to some players people like - fact of life of an improving team. Something that is obvious even to us ignorant high-horsed types. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spur1 Posted August 9, 2018 Share Posted August 9, 2018 These questions will have to be answered after training camp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bert Diesel Posted August 9, 2018 Author Share Posted August 9, 2018 8 minutes ago, theo5789 said: He's 24 years old with 25 points in 64 games to his name. He's on his 4th NHL team now. He had an impressive 9 points in 14 games with us when put on the top unit. It's up to him to continue this play and win a spot out of camp. If he doesn't, why should another team take him on forcing his new team to push another player out? Remember he was only recently traded for a depth AHL dman. Are you saying 25 points in 64 games is bad??? He was a NHL rookie last season on a 35 point pace, actually reasonable impressive. His is on his 3rd NHL team, not 4th. He was only moved out of Toronto because he was claimed by Vegas. Vegas had a very deep team and only traded him because they had a roster crunch when they acquired Tatar. Mcphee did us a favour and was probably looking to build some good faith with Benning with this move. From what I saw of Leipsic in a Canucks uniform last season I was quite impressed. I'd like to see him with Horvat and Boeser. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nucker 67 Posted August 9, 2018 Share Posted August 9, 2018 30 minutes ago, theo5789 said: The question posed was "why does anyone need to be waived" and I answered that there are. If a bottom 6 guy is injured, why would we call up Dahlen over Gaunce? If the 2nd line is Eriksson - Sutter - Pettersson, they could always move Loui to fill in the bottom 6, so Dahlen could play with Elias. That's just my thought anyway. I would prefer to bring up Archibald instead of Gaunce too. At least Archie knows he's a big guy and uses his size. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nucker 67 Posted August 9, 2018 Share Posted August 9, 2018 Just had a thought. Maybe the question is: Who can the Canucks afford to lose? In this case, maybe Gaunce is the player they should call up if they need to. He's an okay NHL player, but not a difference maker or a part of the Canucks future core. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ilduce39 Posted August 9, 2018 Share Posted August 9, 2018 2 hours ago, ForsbergTheGreat said: Sure it is, I'm not pulling Goldi being a potential core player out of thin air, it's based on his skill set, our team needs and what he has accomplished leading up to this spot. He's got the tools to become one, he just needs the confidence to build on it, something that often takes more time than a training camp can show. No you fabricated a fantasy that has zero reality. Gagner is not going to be the key to Petterssons development. Why do you think that. Every indication is he’s going to be giving opportunity to start at center. What’s wrong with him playing on horvat’s wing. Pettersson bo and Brock Sounds pretty good to me. Jb stated he wasnt sutter play in more offensive opportunit to provide more offense. Putting Pettersson on his wing is a sure way to accomplish that. You know you don't have to respond to every little sentence, especially when your response is simply an obnoxious "I know you are but what am I." We're both an opinion on the upcoming season. They aren't ruling out C but I'd wager dollars to donuts he plays the majority of the season at wing. Why? Because he just dominated the SHL at wing and since this is a new challenge, why not replicate as much as we can that led to his SHL success. Playing with Brock and Bo sounds great, but he's coming off just under 16 minutes a night in the SHL playoffs. Brock is at 17:30 and likely ready for more... and Bo is at 19+ in the NHL against top competition. From what I remember, Elias was eased into the SHL at around 14 sheltered minutes a night and it worked. I see no reason to fix what isn't broken. 2 hours ago, ForsbergTheGreat said: “Gagner isn't a particularly effective center though. He's not a very good faceoff guy. He's not a particularly strong defensive center. He's more appropriately a winger conversion on a skilled bottom six line - something the team doesn't really need at this point imo. It's possible they use him as the missing / 4th center - with a pair of skilled young wingers in easier minutes - but personally I'd prefer to see them use Schaller - or Granlund - or even Gaudette if he proves ready.” Ewww, not only a terrible line, it's a terrible position to put a star rookie into the league. Pettersson needs sheltering, not to be put on line where he’s expected to do it all and carry his line mates. Who’s going to the net? Who’s battling in the corners to dig out the puck? Who’s playing responsible in the D zone? Again, Gagner is not an effective center, he’s not strong enough defensively, lacks battle and is not effective 5 on 5. I’m curious as to how you think that line would match the 146 points in put up by twins and Vanek. Baertschi’s career high is 35 points, Gagner hit 50 points once in his career (while being placed in an extreme sheltered roll). Unless you expect Pettersson to be just under a ppg as a 19 year (carrying the line), it’s just not going to happen. The statement that they would “easily” match is an extreme overstatement as the likely hood that line would do that is slim to none. Gagner is one year removed from 50 and is a career 46 over 82 guy and Baertchi was on pace for 45 over 82 last season and 42 points the year before. They were both at around 47% corsi with 51 / 55 % ozone starts. Hank got 15 minutes a night at 74% ozone starts and a ton of PP time. There's some easy minutes up for grabs this year. (Gagner only had 52% ozone starts in his 50 point year with Columbus btw.) Gagner also won 48% of his face-offs last year. Not bad. (Gaudette was at 38% last year in admittedly a super small sample size... and Granlund is a career 40% face-off guy.) Are Gagner/Baer world beaters? Nope. But they can play well enough and generate offence well enough to put up numbers with an elite offensive rookie in sheltered deployment. Give them 65+ ozone starts and 2nd unit PP time (Elias will get 1st unit) and yeah I think they replace the Sedins easily.. and play better 2-way hockey to boot. It doesn't have to be those two, I agree there's no clear "net front" but heck, make Gagner do it. He's 200 pounds. If not, replace Baer. Pettersson will be carrying ANYONE offensively not named Brock or Bo next year. But as I said before, I'd be mapping out Pettersson's entry into the league very similarly to how he broke into the SHL and that isn't on the front lines to start. 14-16 "soft" minutes a night. I think Gagner is the front runner for that position.. the other winger could really be anyone. If Granlund or Gaudette or anyone else end up there AWESOME (assuming they're looking like studs) but I think this is where the coach starts his search. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rollieo Del Fuego Posted August 9, 2018 Share Posted August 9, 2018 19 minutes ago, ilduce39 said: You know you don't have to respond to every little sentence, especially when your response is simply an obnoxious "I know you are but what am I." We're both an opinion on the upcoming season. They aren't ruling out C but I'd wager dollars to donuts he plays the majority of the season at wing. Why? Because he just dominated the SHL at wing and since this is a new challenge, why not replicate as much as we can that led to his SHL success. Playing with Brock and Bo sounds great, but he's coming off just under 16 minutes a night in the SHL playoffs. Brock is at 17:30 and likely ready for more... and Bo is at 19+ in the NHL against top competition. From what I remember, Elias was eased into the SHL at around 14 sheltered minutes a night and it worked. I see no reason to fix what isn't broken. Gagner is one year removed from 50 and is a career 46 over 82 guy and Baertchi was on pace for 45 over 82 last season and 42 points the year before. They were both at around 47% corsi with 51 / 55 % ozone starts. Hank got 15 minutes a night at 74% ozone starts and a ton of PP time. There's some easy minutes up for grabs this year. (Gagner only had 52% ozone starts in his 50 point year with Columbus btw.) Gagner also won 48% of his face-offs last year. Not bad. (Gaudette was at 38% last year in admittedly a super small sample size... and Granlund is a career 40% face-off guy.) Are Gagner/Baer world beaters? Nope. But they can play well enough and generate offence well enough to put up numbers with an elite offensive rookie in sheltered deployment. Give them 65+ ozone starts and 2nd unit PP time (Elias will get 1st unit) and yeah I think they replace the Sedins easily.. and play better 2-way hockey to boot. It doesn't have to be those two, I agree there's no clear "net front" but heck, make Gagner do it. He's 200 pounds. If not, replace Baer. Pettersson will be carrying ANYONE offensively not named Brock or Bo next year. But as I said before, I'd be mapping out Pettersson's entry into the league very similarly to how he broke into the SHL and that isn't on the front lines to start. 14-16 "soft" minutes a night. I think Gagner is the front runner for that position.. the other winger could really be anyone. If Granlund or Gaudette or anyone else end up there AWESOME (assuming they're looking like studs) but I think this is where the coach starts his search. I was agreeing with most things you were saying until the bolded.... Gagner was our worst defensive player....and we had Goldy and the Sedins vying for that honor...he has to score 50 points to come close to all the points he gives up when he is on the ice....he can't backcheck ...he won't go in the corner's and he doesn't win puck battles Gagner's biggest plus right now is that he would pass like prune juice through waiver's.... Baer is only just better than Goldy on D. but noticeably better than Gagner....and there is no way Sam is 200 Lbs either....unless it's all in his belly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jayinblack Posted August 9, 2018 Share Posted August 9, 2018 1 hour ago, CoolCanucklehead said: I think you're under estimating Leipsic... Definitely. He looked pretty slick and will only improve with time/chemistry. I want to see him with in the top 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ilduce39 Posted August 9, 2018 Share Posted August 9, 2018 27 minutes ago, Rollieo Del Fuego said: I was agreeing with most things you were saying until the bolded.... Gagner was our worst defensive player....and we had Goldy and the Sedins vying for that honor...he has to score 50 points to come close to all the points he gives up when he is on the ice....he can't backcheck ...he won't go in the corner's and he doesn't win puck battles Gagner's biggest plus right now is that he would pass like prune juice through waiver's.... Baer is only just better than Goldy on D. but noticeably better than Gagner....and there is no way Sam is 200 Lbs either....unless it's all in his belly FWIW I was just saying they'd be better than the Twins. Take it with a grain of salt... I don't remember much of Gagner last year as he spent a lot of it on that "spare parts" 4th line. He seemed to not be afraid to scrum it up and that surprised me. For me it's 100% about Pettersson - I want him sheltered (not with Bo/Brock or definitely Sutter) and with the option to play wing, so another guy who can play C. There aren't a lot of options so I think Gagner is the place you start looking... and in my mind he's established as a 40-ish point guy. If you highlighted him in a sheltered role with an elite offensive player like Elias I think he'd at least produce. (sadly) I also think there's softer options to play with Elias... at least Gagner will get into the scrums with that belly of his. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ItsMillerTime Posted August 9, 2018 Share Posted August 9, 2018 2 hours ago, Rob_Zepp said: LOL....name me a key Canuck lost to waivers in past 10 years.......us "ignorant" people are having a hard time putting together a list. Non because they aren't stupid enough to waive a potential 20+ goal scorer. Dude get out of here its obvious you shouldn't of said what you said now you're just defending something you don't believe in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mll Posted August 9, 2018 Share Posted August 9, 2018 22 minutes ago, Rollieo Del Fuego said: I was agreeing with most things you were saying until the bolded.... Gagner was our worst defensive player....and we had Goldy and the Sedins vying for that honor...he has to score 50 points to come close to all the points he gives up when he is on the ice....he can't backcheck ...he won't go in the corner's and he doesn't win puck battles Gagner's biggest plus right now is that he would pass like prune juice through waiver's.... Baer is only just better than Goldy on D. but noticeably better than Gagner....and there is no way Sam is 200 Lbs either....unless it's all in his belly Green was giving Baer as example to Shinkaruk re D-play so he probably doesn't agree with your statement that he is just barely better than Goldobin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aGENT Posted August 9, 2018 Share Posted August 9, 2018 2 hours ago, NUCKER67 said: Why does anyone need to be waived? Don't agree with your lines but the point stands. I'm really not sure what people are fretting about. We can easily fit all the players people are concerned about, even without injuries And we will have injuries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aGENT Posted August 9, 2018 Share Posted August 9, 2018 2 hours ago, theo5789 said: You're missing Gaunce and Biega who need to clear waivers (amongst others as well, but less significant). So some will need to be waived for sure. *That realistically might get claimed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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