Waivers: who gets claimed?

[appleboy]

2 minutes ago, Rob_Zepp said:

Ya, the one that took the prospect pool/farm system into a top 5 in the NHL from near the bottom in under five years needs to be gone and now.   No question.    What a mess.  How dare they have patience and build for the future!   How dare they!!!!

Their drafting has been a high point, no doubt. A lot of that is because of Brackett. A lot of that is just because they have seriously sucked .

The trades and signings that Benning has made leave a lot to be desired. Because of Jimbo's awesome management skills I will bet you we draft top 3 next year.

[aGENT]

4 minutes ago, appleboy said:

Their drafting has been a high point, no doubt. A lot of that is because of Brackett. A lot of that is just because they have seriously sucked .

The trades and signings that Benning has made leave a lot to be desired. Because of Jimbo's awesome management skills I will bet you we draft top 3 next year.

 

We're a rebuilding team. Rebuilding teams tend to pick in the top 10, as we have and will likely continue to do, this year. It really has very little to do with 'Jimbo's management skillz' and more to do with the simple reality of the situation.

 

Short of Eriksson's contract, there hasn't particularly been any missteps in 'trades and signings' of any significance despite all the whinging.

[ForsbergTheGreat]

3 hours ago, aGENT said:

I love all these unrealistic hypotheticals people come up with. 

 

'If Beagle has a bad camp...'

 

'If Horvat has a bad camp...'

 

'If Virtanen has a bad camp...'

 

Well gee guys, no, if players with far larger, actual NHL history and a track record of solid play and/or  improvement somehow (unrealistically) look 'off' at camp, they probably aren't getting waived.

 

Virtanen hasn’t proved anything. He’s has some good sprints at the end of the season but so has goldi (who you could argue has been even more impressive).  The only reason jake has more games played is because he was rushed into the nhl. Outside of that both players disappear, both show defensive liabilities and both show flashes. But if you think he belongs in the same conversation as Bo and beagle have at it. 

 

 

 

[appleboy]

4 minutes ago, aGENT said:

 

We're a rebuilding team. Rebuilding teams tend to pick in the top 10, as we have and will likely continue to do, this year. It really has very little to do with 'Jimbo's management skillz' and more to do with the simple reality of the situation.

 

Short of Eriksson's contract, there hasn't particularly been any missteps in 'trades and signings' of any significance despite all the whinging.

I think it takes rose colored glasses to be happy with the contracts and trades.  LE , Beagle , Roussel and Guddy hurt our cap space moving forward with very little return.

[smokes]

1 hour ago, mll said:

They can put him back on waivers but could risk losing him again.  

 

Boucher was waived by NJD and claimed by Nashville.  They waived him and he was re-claimed by NJD.  They then waived him and that's when the Canucks picked him up:

https://www.nj.com/devils/index.ssf/2017/01/devils_waive_reid_boucher_again_explaining_the_mes.html

 

The Devils placed Boucher on waivers at noon on Tuesday, 24 hours after the team claimed him off waivers from the Nashville Predators.

The Predators claimed Boucher from the Devils on Dec. 3, when the Devils attempted to send him to Albany (AHL).

The Devils reclaimed the 23-year-old forward in hopes of sending him to Albany to get more playing time, but they were not the only team to claim Boucher on Monday. Had the Devils been the lone NHL team to claim him, he would have been eligible to go directly to the AHL.

But since another team put in a claim, Boucher needed to be added to the NHL roster, per CBA rules. The Devils put Boucher back on waivers Tuesday in another attempt to get him to Albany.

 

Is there such thing as a waivers journeyman. The guy gets waived so much he might as well be a fisherman.

[ForsbergTheGreat]

17 minutes ago, Rob_Zepp said:

Ya, the one that took the prospect pool/farm system into a top 5 in the NHL from near the bottom in under five years needs to be gone and now.   No question.    What a mess.  How dare they have patience and build for the future!   How dare they!!!!

Robb you keep quoting that but you do realize the number is going to drop dramatically this year. And that’s not because our young players or drafting got worse but because many of our players will graduated out of “prospect” status. That’s why those prospect pool rankings are next to meaningless. A much better ranking would compiling a ranking of teams players under 25, regardless of them being “prospects” or nhl vets. That would bring far more value to measuring drafting success as well as determining what teams look the most promising. 

 

Since we will likely not see an analyst or blogger compile that list might be something we have to do on cdc. It would be interesting to see where we’d fall. 

[aGENT]

13 minutes ago, ForsbergTheGreat said:

 

Virtanen hasn’t proved anything. He’s has some good sprints at the end of the season but so has goldi (who you could argue has been even more impressive).  The only reason jake has more games played is because he was rushed into the nhl. Outside of that both players disappear, both show defensive liabilities and both show flashes. But if you think he belongs in the same conversation as Bo and beagle have at it. 

 

 

 

 

He's proved he's capable of being a legit NHL player whether that's at a bottom 6, middle 6 or top 6 player is very much TBD.

 

Goldy can not say the same.

 

In regards to showing he's capable of being an actual NHL player, he is in the same conversation. That in no way equates them to being 'equal' players anymore than Horvat and Beagle are 'equal' players.

 

But 'have at it' FTG 

 

6 minutes ago, appleboy said:

I think it takes rose colored glasses to be happy with the contracts and trades.  LE , Beagle , Roussel and Guddy hurt our cap space moving forward with very little return.

None of those contracts, even LE's admittedly poor value contract, is remotely an issue with our cap space. And they offer plenty in return.

[oldnews]

I dunno, but....

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nhl/5-nhl-teams-that-will-dominate-the-league-in-five-years/ss-BBLt9gz

 

Apparently the Canucks are poised to dominate in the future!  #3

 

 

However, this may not happen if they lose a Boucher or two on waivers...

 

 

[Rob_Zepp]

24 minutes ago, appleboy said:

Their drafting has been a high point, no doubt. A lot of that is because of Brackett. A lot of that is just because they have seriously sucked .

The trades and signings that Benning has made leave a lot to be desired. Because of Jimbo's awesome management skills I will bet you we draft top 3 next year.

The prospect pool/farm system isn't just strong due to drafting.   A fair number of trades were involved in making that happen too.   As far as "Brackett" or whoever, isn't he part of the management team?    So you have already pre-judged the most recent signings without the guys playing a shift in a Canuck uniform?   Well, at least you are open-minded to it.

 

Well, "Jimbo" as you call him has done what a good GM should have done with a team that near the bottom of its cycle.   None of may ever know what exactly transpired with Linden but I do recall many times Linden saying how he was keen to be "fair to the Sedins and ice a competitive product" and perhaps that stood in the way of many things Benning wanted to do - you don't know otherwise, neither do I but Linden said that many, many times.   Benning/Green made it clear very recently they are in it for the long haul as far as development and commitment to youth - you clearly choose to doubt them even after Linden has moved on.   Your choice but, again, nice to see you have an open mind seeing they haven't played a game  yet.

 

Finally, a lot of teams that have "seriously sucked" (your words) don't have very good farm systems or prospect pools in compare to the Canucks.   I bet you have an answer to that too that includes it being due to something Benning is doing wrong as well.   

 

 

[ForsbergTheGreat]

6 minutes ago, aGENT said:

 

He's proved he's capable of being a legit NHL player whether that's at a bottom 6, middle 6 or top 6 player is very much TBD.

 

Nope he's proved nothing so far as he’s been far to inconsistent. He has the skill set to potentially fill a number of roles but a player like gadj has similar skill sets. If the basis is that players have to earn it, then Jakes earned nothing more than opportunity to fight for a full time spot. Same position goldy is in.

 

 

Quote

Goldy can not say the same.

 

In regards to showing he's capable of being an actual NHL player, he is in the same conversation. That in no way equates them to being 'equal' players anymore than Horvat and Beagle are 'equal' players.

Again jakes showed nothing as of yet that he’s a legit full time nhler. Hopefully this year but it’s not like last year was his coming out party. Kid needs to do things game in game out if he want to be a legit nhl regular. 

 

 

[Rob_Zepp]

11 minutes ago, ForsbergTheGreat said:

Robb you keep quoting that but you do realize the number is going to drop dramatically this year. And that’s not because our young players or drafting got worse but because many of our players will graduated out of “prospect” status. That’s why those prospect pool rankings are next to meaningless. A much better ranking would compiling a ranking of teams players under 25, regardless of them being “prospects” or nhl vets. That would bring far more value to measuring drafting success as well as determining what teams look the most promising. 

 

Since we will likely not see an analyst or blogger compile that list might be something we have to do on cdc. It would be interesting to see where we’d fall. 

FTG, it may drop but perhaps not too as it depends who indeed does graduate and the haul from this recent draft included two pretty much certain NHL talents and some intriguing others.   

 

BTW - I don't agree those rankings are meaningless.   They are if you are winning cups and  you have a low ranking....that is obvious.   They are if you miss playoffs ten years in a row but have a highly ranked system - you bloody well should.   However, teams that are lottery teams BUT don't have a highly ranked system shows to me a lack of good management.   Further, playoff teams that also have a good pool show a very good management approach.   

 

PS - why 25?   That isn't even the peak years for many players/positions.   I would say 28 is a better number.   I would never include NHL players that have "graduated" however as that ranking is pretty simple, it is called the "Standings".   

[Rob_Zepp]

9 minutes ago, aGENT said:

 

He's proved he's capable of being a legit NHL player whether that's at a bottom 6, middle 6 or top 6 player is very much TBD.

 

Goldy can not say the same.

 

In regards to showing he's capable of being an actual NHL player, he is in the same conversation. That in no way equates them to being 'equal' players anymore than Horvat and Beagle are 'equal' players.

 

But 'have at it' FTG 

 

None of those contracts, even LE's admittedly poor value contract, is remotely an issue with our cap space. And they offer plenty in return.

The Burrows and Hansen trades are examples of what people forget were "trades" too.   Same with Pedan, Subban etc.   Minor trades at the time and none of them may ever really materialize into something but to say that they "lost" any of those trades with "clear" glasses is a bit difficult IMHO.    

[aGENT]

2 minutes ago, ForsbergTheGreat said:

 

Nope he's proved nothing so far as he’s been far to inconsistent. He has the skill set to potentially fill a number of roles but a player like gadj has similar skill sets. If the basis is that players have to earn it, then Jakes earned nothing more than opportunity to fight for a full time spot. Same position goldy is in.

 

 

Again jakes showed nothing as of yet that he’s a legit full time nhler. Hopefully this year but it’s not like last year was his coming out party. Kid needs to do things game in game out if he want to be a legit nhl regular. 

 

 

If you want to think Virtanen hasn't shown more at the NHL level than Goldy, good for you  

[Rob_Zepp]

30 minutes ago, ForsbergTheGreat said:

 

Virtanen hasn’t proved anything. He’s has some good sprints at the end of the season but so has goldi (who you could argue has been even more impressive).  The only reason jake has more games played is because he was rushed into the nhl. Outside of that both players disappear, both show defensive liabilities and both show flashes. But if you think he belongs in the same conversation as Bo and beagle have at it. 

 

 

 

Not sure that is fair at all.   I think he proved a ton taking his medicine and reporting to the AHL with the attitude to improve versus sulking or otherwise.   He concentrated on the parts of the game he was told to and gave up points for defense sort of mentality.   He also seems to have recognized areas needing improvement and is working at it.   Will he succeed?   Not sure but I sure like his chances.    

 

Saying he is not above Goldy's development is unfair in my opinion (not yours, that is OK) as he played a lot of his limited minutes last year in responsible roles (end of games, key dzone starts etc.) and through leading the team in some really key stats like hits/60, TA/GA ratio, and Dzone starts in terms of the young guys (other than Motte...who was a small sample).  Shot attempts was right behind Horvat and % through was ahead of Boeser.   Corsi can be misleading but, again, he was right up there for the team (just behind LE and one ahead of Horvat).  In terms of blocked shots, he led Canuck forwards in blocks/60 and tied in team lead for total blocks amongst forwards.   

 

Given Jake is a full year plus younger than Goldy too is another discriminator at this point in their respective developments.   

 

I like both players, I just don't think your "defensive liability" statement for Virtanen is accurate (statistics say it isn't) or fair if you are comparing to Goldy.   

 

Cheers    

[Rollieo Del Fuego]

20 hours ago, ilduce39 said:

FWIW I was just saying they'd be better than the Twins.  Take it with a grain of salt... I don't remember much of Gagner last year as he spent a lot of it on that "spare parts" 4th line.  He seemed to not be afraid to scrum it up and that surprised me.

 

For me it's 100% about Pettersson - I want him sheltered (not with Bo/Brock or definitely Sutter) and with the option to play wing, so another guy who can play C.  There aren't a lot of options so I think Gagner is the place you start looking... and in my mind he's established as a 40-ish point guy.  If you highlighted him in a sheltered role with an elite offensive player like Elias I think he'd at least produce. (sadly) I also think there's softer options to play with Elias... at least Gagner will get into the scrums with that belly of his.

Gagner does not go into scrums....he is a soft player...I would rather have EP with a scorer and a puck retrieval guy....say Jake and Gaudette or Erikkson .

 

I do agree that is all about EP this year and letting him break in slow with Jake and Erikkson or Gaudette as our 3rd line may be just the ticket.

[oldnews]

No real need to expose anyone of significant value.

 

Maybe Gagner gets claimed, possibly Archibald or Boucher, otherwise,

 

Schaller on I.R.

Gaudette and Motte are waiver exempt, as is Demko.

 

Horvat, Boeser, Sutter, Virtanen, Baertschi, Granlund, Leipsic, Eriksson, Beagle, Roussel, Goldobin, Gaunce.

12 forwards.

Add Pettersson.  One of those above guys in the press box.

 

No real need to waive anyone of value - at least not until players like Schaller return, or a Gaudette forces his way into the lineup - Gagner, Boucher, Archie = expendables.

Dump Gagner.  Consider moving Baertschi.  At this point, those would be my leanings.

[appleboy]

7 minutes ago, Rob_Zepp said:

The prospect pool/farm system isn't just strong due to drafting.   A fair number of trades were involved in making that happen too.   As far as "Brackett" or whoever, isn't he part of the management team?    So you have already pre-judged the most recent signings without the guys playing a shift in a Canuck uniform?   Well, at least you are open-minded to it.

 

Well, "Jimbo" as you call him has done what a good GM should have done with a team that near the bottom of its cycle.   None of may ever know what exactly transpired with Linden but I do recall many times Linden saying how he was keen to be "fair to the Sedins and ice a competitive product" and perhaps that stood in the way of many things Benning wanted to do - you don't know otherwise, neither do I but Linden said that many, many times.   Benning/Green made it clear very recently they are in it for the long haul as far as development and commitment to youth - you clearly choose to doubt them even after Linden has moved on.   Your choice but, again, nice to see you have an open mind seeing they haven't played a game  yet.

 

Finally, a lot of teams that have "seriously sucked" (your words) don't have very good farm systems or prospect pools in compare to the Canucks.   I bet you have an answer to that too that includes it being due to something Benning is doing wrong as well.   

 

 

I think you are missing the big point of what is going on with this club. For me it is the overall direction that this team has. That comes right from the " top".  This was and still is a club that needs to be rebuilt from the ground up and has needed that for many years now. Linden and Benning's overall direction has been wrong from the get go. Many of us have been saying it for years now and nothing has changed. Deals like LE , Guddy , Beagle and Rousell are not what this club needs. Signing Miller at the beginning rather then starting a full on rebuild was a big mistake. Moving out draft pics for older prospects and trying to speed up a rebuild was very flawed and has only slowed down the youth movement. Signing the three UFA's this year shows that they have learned nothing from the last four years. It is like a dog returning to its vomit. Maybe if we eat it again it will stay down. They just signed two 30 plus players for 4 years.

You can't just keep doing the same stupid thing over and over and expect a different result. We have two young star players and a couple on the way. Virtually no defense and one forward line that has scoring potential. I could have seen one signing to replace Dorsett.

I hope you don't think that Rousell and Beagle are going to bring a better result then Gaunce and Goldy?

[smithers joe]

they have to look at each bubble player's strengths and weaknesses and determine what is best for this team.  personally, i like jake and leipsic over goldy and gagner.  i am wrong a lot. 

[stawns]

2 minutes ago, appleboy said:

I think you are missing the big point of what is going on with this club. For me it is the overall direction that this team has. That comes right from the " top".  This was and still is a club that needs to be rebuilt from the ground up and has needed that for many years now. Linden and Benning's overall direction has been wrong from the get go. Many of us have been saying it for years now and nothing has changed. Deals like LE , Guddy , Beagle and Rousell are not what this club needs. Signing Miller at the beginning rather then starting a full on rebuild was a big mistake. Moving out draft pics for older prospects and trying to speed up a rebuild was very flawed and has only slowed down the youth movement. Signing the three UFA's this year shows that they have learned nothing from the last four years. It is like a dog returning to its vomit. Maybe if we eat it again it will stay down. They just signed two 30 plus players for 4 years.

You can't just keep doing the same stupid thing over and over and expect a different result. We have two young star players and a couple on the way. Virtually no defense and one forward line that has scoring potential. I could have seen one signing to replace Dorsett.

I hope you don't think that Rousell and Beagle are going to bring a better result then Gaunce and Goldy?

You don't think the team needed a serious boost to the bottom 6?  You don't think they needed some size, grit and be harder to play against?

 

I would love to have seen your reactions when Goldy etc were in the bottom 6, going up against Ovie, Benn, Wheeler etc etc.

[ForsbergTheGreat]

1 minute ago, Rob_Zepp said:

FTG, it may drop but perhaps not too as it depends who indeed does graduate and the haul from this recent draft included two pretty much certain NHL talents and some intriguing others.   

Pettersson Juolevi gaudette. Potienally Hughes at the end of the season. 

 

 

1 minute ago, Rob_Zepp said:

 

BTW - I don't agree those rankings are meaningless.   They are if you are winning cups and  you have a low ranking....that is obvious.   They are if you miss playoffs ten years in a row but have a highly ranked system - you bloody well should.   However, teams that are lottery teams BUT don't have a highly ranked system shows to me a lack of good management.   Further, playoff teams that also have a good pool show a very good management approach.   

 

 

Name some. Since 2014. The bottom 5 teams are

yotes (stacked with youth)

avs (stacked with youth)

canucks. Stacked

huriccanes (stacked)

and oilers. Who are also stacked. 

 

The only reason the “pools” look different is because most of Oilers youth are already in the nhl (mcdavid, Leon, nurse, pool party). They doesn’t mean they are less promising. How can you be less promising with a 100+ point generational center

 

After those 5 were 

det, nj, toronto again all teams have quite a good youth system. Those rankings disregard players that are able to make a jump right into the nhl. 

 

 

1 minute ago, Rob_Zepp said:

PS - why 25?   That isn't even the peak years for many players/positions.   I would say 28 is a better numbe.   

 

Because 28 year olds don’t have anything to do with future promise, which is the hole goal of the “prospect pool” rankings. 

 

1 minute ago, Rob_Zepp said:

I would never include NHL players that have "graduated" however as that ranking is pretty simple, it is called the "Standings".   

 it’s a combination of both. Boeser has just as much impact to our future (if not way more) as samsonov (who’s the same age) does for the caps. Why should the caps get better value in “the rankings” simply because their first round draft pick from the same year as ours isn’t in the nhl yet. Makes no sense.   Hence why the prospect pools rankings are meaningless. It does nothing but favor the teams the have slower developing picks. And after this year when we graduate a large number of players. Instead of bragging about these rankings it’s going to be written off as another eastern bias outlet that hates the Canucks.