[Discussion] The time to utilize the cap and fix the forward group is now. CAP explaining and Toroto failure

[Rob_Zepp]

I am sure Coach Green would love Nylander's sacrifice all for the team approach....

[IBatch]

55 minutes ago, CanadianRugby said:

I think coach Green does a great job at motivating people and getting the team to work hard.  If Nylander can score 60+ points while being the LAZIEST player ever.  Imagine what he could do once he enters his prime in a couple of years and actually gets motivated to work hard.  Probably would put up 100+ points.  Not bad for a 7 Million cap hit.  

That’s rich, he’s not Marchand (an extremely hard working guy with skills who worked his butt off to get first line duties) or Kovalev (and extremely skilled guy, like tippity top level skill) who’s lazy play early on frustrated his fan bases.  He’s got some skill yes, but there is nothing in his play that suggests he’s going to break out.   Best guess is he’s going to have one 70 Point year, probably his next contract year at that, don’t want him on our team even if he’s free (traded for nothing) as that cap space could be used better somewhere else.   What in the world gives you the idea that he’s ever going to get 100 points?  I’d eat my phone if he does and post retractions ... and take video of it so  make sure you hold me to it.   Even 80 points is a stretch and a lot of guys managed that this year.

[IBatch]

2 minutes ago, Rob_Zepp said:

I am sure Coach Green would love Nylander's sacrifice all for the team approach....

Love it.  Jumping out of the way so the goalies sees the shot right?  Shore is rolling around in his grave somewhere. 

[khay]

58 minutes ago, CanadianRugby said:

If you're trading a 22 year old player that already has two 60+ point seasons and is only getting paid $5 Million, you're getting a package that includes Hughes.  Not Tanev/Edler.  

 

Boeser is the best comparison on the Canucks, neither player is physical.  Also 22.  Two 50+ point seasons.  If he gets signed to $5 Million / year, what would you want in return if trading him?  

Hence, we don't trade for Nylander? Well that was my point anyways. Let's not trade for Nylander.

[stawns]

1 hour ago, spook007 said:

Good call....

Then tie Kadri up every day in the net for shooting practice, for elbowing Danny... piece of $&!# he is...

 

That aside I think you right...Kadri with Roussel would be an interesting 3rd line combo

I actually don't mind Sutter for Kadri

[spook007]

2 minutes ago, stawns said:

I actually don't mind Sutter for Kadri

I know...

a line with Roussel and Kadri would be interesting. 

 

However until he becomes a canuck, I want him to be hammered to a pulp for the dirty hit on Sedin. 

 

He is on my hit list should I ever become an assassin  

 

 

[stawns]

5 minutes ago, spook007 said:

I know...

a line with Roussel and Kadri would be interesting. 

 

However until he becomes a canuck, I want him to be hammered to a pulp for the dirty hit on Sedin. 

 

He is on my hit list should I ever become an assassin  

 

 

The problem is, I guess, he bumps AG out of a spot down the middle.  

Edited April 27, 2019 by stawns

[spook007]

1 minute ago, stawns said:

The problem is, I guess, he bumps AG out of a spot down the middle.  

Nice problem though. 

AG still have ways to go before he’s a lock for the third line C. 

Maybe he could play W until then. In two years Beagles contract is up, and AG/Kadri would be ready made replacements. 

We do need real crash and bang players with some nastiness in them. 

[ChuckNORRIS4Cup]

Why would people want a rat like Kadri?

 

He hurts your team more then good one little hit on him and he loses his mind, then he takes a stupid penalty and puts your team in a bad position, heck maybe even gets suspended so how does that help your team? Kadri constantly has the Refs watching him more to make sure he doesn't do anything cheap when he's on the ice, why would you want to bring a guy like that to the team so the Refs have a reason to hate on the Canucks more, I would stay far away from Kadri let him stay a Leaf so he can continue to hurt their team.

[stawns]

1 minute ago, ChuckNORRIS4Cup said:

Why would people want a rat like Kadri?

 

He hurts your team more then good one little hit on him and he loses his mind, then he takes a stupid penalty and puts your team in a bad position, heck maybe even gets suspended so how does that help your team? Kadri constantly has the Refs watching him more to make sure he doesn't do anything cheap when he's on the ice, why would you want to bring a guy like that to the team so the Refs have a reason to hate on the Canucks more, I would stay far away from Kadri let him stay a Leaf so he can continue to hurt their team.

He's also a very good, very versatile hockey player and, I think, well liked in the dressing room.  

 

I think Grapes is right, he won't pull a stunt like that again.

[stawns]

15 minutes ago, spook007 said:

Nice problem though. 

AG still have ways to go before he’s a lock for the third line C. 

Maybe he could play W until then. In two years Beagles contract is up, and AG/Kadri would be ready made replacements. 

We do need real crash and bang players with some nastiness in them. 

I agree about AG, he's far from being a lock as an everyday player, though he had a very encouraging season.

[ChuckNORRIS4Cup]

5 minutes ago, stawns said:

He's also a very good, very versatile hockey player and, I think, well liked in the dressing room.  

 

I think Grapes is right, he won't pull a stunt like that again.

Kind of like how people thought Marchand would learn from his mistakes.... It's just part of their game, they've played that way for so long that when things aren't going their way they go back to that way again they always do, it's hard to break that out of a players style when they have played it like that for so long. Do I believe he will try and stop doing that no doubt he saw how much it hurt his team this year, but as much as he tries all he has to do is get triggered once and he's back to his old self, kind of like an addict it's hard to break.

[stawns]

Just now, ChuckNORRIS4Cup said:

Kind of like how people thought Marchand would learn from his mistakes.... It's just part of their game, they've played that way for so long that when things aren't going their way they go back to that way again they always do, it's hard to break that out of a players style when they have played it like that for so long. Do I believe he will try and stop doing that no doubt he saw how much it hurt his team this year, but as much as he tries all he has to do is get triggered once and he's back to his old self, kind of like an addict it's hard to break.

Personally, I think that's an important element on playoff teams, and the Canucks have one good one in Roussel.  In 2011, they had several and it was a huge part of that team.

 

Marchand is probably a top 5-6 player in the world and about as clutch as they come.  

[Shirotashi]

13 hours ago, Arrow 1983 said:

I wrote a topic recently arguing that our defence needed to be fixed to create more offence from our forward group. This time around I'm going to argue in favour of acquiring more offence through our forward group by acquiring forwards. The main reason I want to do this is cause I gave my reasons for acquiring Erik Karlsson as a UFA however, getting a UFA that you want is not always realistic or possible when competing with 30 other teams.

This brings me to my first point, acquiring a top forward may not be possible on July first they may not want to come here this is why I believe we need to trade for a forward. Furthermore, paying a top forward 9-10 million for the next 7 years isn't prudent to the cap at this time I will explain. This offseason and in 2 years from now we will have to pay BB is 7ish million which is comparable to those with same goal point production, and EP his 7isn plus which could be more dependent on 3 factors; his improvement over 2 years (luckily for the Canucks cap BB only had 1 year to improve before his extension). 2nd the increase in the cap causing players to ask for more over the next 2 years due to the fact that the roster remains at 23 and only the dollars go up and 3rd the years to come comparables to EP.

So why do these things matter, Simple look at Toronto and you can see exactly what I'm about to explain. There is this ration when dealing with a cap when teams have defined positions in there sport this is not as true for Basketball due to the amount of players and time a player can play in Basketball your top player players in basketball can play almost every minute of the game. But in football and in hockey this ration is very important. I call it the offence to defence ration. There is no specific number or percentage but when you mess it up you can really see it and Toronto is a prime example, they are about to pay there forward group far to much money. Toronto is going to need to trade a forward period it has to happen there is no way around it. So lets consider the Canucks at forward. BH 5.5m BB 7m ish EP 7.0m ish = 19.5 ish million. If we sign a 9-10m ish forward july first lets take 9.5 we are standing at 29m ish dollars per year for 4 forwards. Yes I agree the cap will go up however I'm hoping these are not the only good forwards we have in 2 years.

 

My proposal

 

Canucks 1st round pick (remember it is only pick number 10 over all not 1st 2nd or 3rd overall) for William Nylander and Patrick Marleau. if Marleau agrees to this trade Toronto I believe takes this trade and runs away faster then Usain Bolt LOL. 

 

Why the Canucks Make this trade:

This draft is weak just my opinion, but when the top prospects not including Jack Hughes are from the states and the WHL the draft is weak. First must of the Americans in the top 10 played on Hughes team that just tells me that there stats could be padded. 2nd WHL players take longer to develop there NHL game then top league Euro or OHL players. 3rd there currently are no WHL goalies being consider as most draft in n this years class of goalies. Look at the NHL you will be hard pressed to find a WHL gaoling in the top league, the WHL simply doesn't develop top tier goals. It is one of the reason why I tell people WHL players are not the best NHL first round picks the top WHL players all have the stats padded by the lack of any top goalies in there league. Any good scout would scout top players going up against top goalies in there league and seeing how they fair against them.

 

So my argument is that if we pick a player at #10 we are looking 2-3 years down the road before he develops into an NHL player if he ever does and yet this is exactly what Toronto needs at the moment a player that can replace a roster spot a cheap rate in the future and is not contending for a spot today. 

 

The Canucks need Nylander today because we need someone today to play with BO either BH and BB play together or BH and MN play together either way we need someone. Nylander fits perfect due to the fact he can score but is a playmakers even more which would help BO and his other linemate score more goals and help on the PP as well. There is something inside me that would like to see Nylander play with EP Cause they are very similar type players. With EP shot An WN playmaking abilities I could see EP getting to 40-50 goals. There is no one to feed to EP. BB is a shooter I would call him a pure goal scorer but EP has every tool Playmaker Goal scorer speed Hockey IQ he finds the open area he just doesn't have the playmaker. I will stop here cause this is another discussion altogether. BB needs a EP But EP needs a WN type player.

 

Why we have to Take Marleau, simple the trade cant happen without it Toronto needs cap relieve a tenth pick isn't s certainty but signing Marner would become one.

 

Can the Canucks take on the cap hit, yes I ran it through Capfriendly, however can the Canucks fix there D NO not this year unless they can do it through trade ie. 1 for 1 type thing, when I ran the numbers I had Edler @ 6mill Hutton @ 3mill Sheen @ 1.5mill.

 

Edler  Tanev

Hutton Stecher 

Hughes Sheen

Biega

 

Maybe For next season this doesn't look so bad it is a switch from the beginning of this season a cheap version Gudbransson in Sheen and one that actually throws his body and a new offensive weapon in Hughes. And hopefully better versions of Hutton and Stecher and Healthier Edler and Tanev maybe that's pushing to far :). 

 

Why NYlander is better for the Cap. He is cap friendly for the next 5 years at just under 7 mill. 9.5 mill guy minus Nylanders 7 mill = 2.5 mill after this season to acquire new defence or obtain another top 6 forward.

 

You will always find no matter what proposal I give you one thing will always remain constant  management cant fix all the problems this team faces this season in one trade or one signing. So I would always tell any fan base we must remain patient. However, i would argue there are deals out there that can be and should be made. We the fan base shouldnt have to settle for 2nd teir UFA signings any more.  

 

 

FYI

It was pointed out that I spelled Toronto wrong in the Title I would just like to tell anyone who cares about it I'm keeping it that way I a genuinely nice easy going person, but some people aren't and feel the need to comment on spelling mistakes maybe they are English teachers or Professors. But even English Professors make mistakes in spelling. Maybe these people are mistake free in there life I would tell you to go make a mistake and become human like the rest of us.

So this is about us trading gold for Toronto's garbage? I was just in the Toronto area and TO fans HATE Nylander with a passion. Were supposed to just trade away our 1st rounder for a player the other franchise hates? I know Marleau is in there but still.

 

 

 

[ChuckNORRIS4Cup]

4 minutes ago, stawns said:

Personally, I think that's an important element on playoff teams, and the Canucks have one good one in Roussel.  In 2011, they had several and it was a huge part of that team.

 

Marchand is probably a top 5-6 player in the world and about as clutch as they come.  

I'm not saying it's bad to have a pest here and there, but having too many can be a problem and with Canucks history with the refs they seem to take it to heart with our pests I find, so I just don't think this team needs more pests like that to draw more attention from the refs moving forward.

 

Yes I acknowledge Marchand has hockey skills his point totals the last few years prove that, but the other aspect of his game still bothers me and I wouldn't want that on my team.

[Roger Neilsons Towel]

14 hours ago, Arrow 1983 said:

I wrote a topic recently arguing that our defence needed to be fixed to create more offence from our forward group. This time around I'm going to argue in favour of acquiring more offence through our forward group by acquiring forwards. The main reason I want to do this is cause I gave my reasons for acquiring Erik Karlsson as a UFA however, getting a UFA that you want is not always realistic or possible when competing with 30 other teams.

This brings me to my first point, acquiring a top forward may not be possible on July first they may not want to come here this is why I believe we need to trade for a forward. Furthermore, paying a top forward 9-10 million for the next 7 years isn't prudent to the cap at this time I will explain. This offseason and in 2 years from now we will have to pay BB is 7ish million which is comparable to those with same goal point production, and EP his 7isn plus which could be more dependent on 3 factors; his improvement over 2 years (luckily for the Canucks cap BB only had 1 year to improve before his extension). 2nd the increase in the cap causing players to ask for more over the next 2 years due to the fact that the roster remains at 23 and only the dollars go up and 3rd the years to come comparables to EP.

So why do these things matter, Simple look at Toronto and you can see exactly what I'm about to explain. There is this ration when dealing with a cap when teams have defined positions in there sport this is not as true for Basketball due to the amount of players and time a player can play in Basketball your top player players in basketball can play almost every minute of the game. But in football and in hockey this ration is very important. I call it the offence to defence ration. There is no specific number or percentage but when you mess it up you can really see it and Toronto is a prime example, they are about to pay there forward group far to much money. Toronto is going to need to trade a forward period it has to happen there is no way around it. So lets consider the Canucks at forward. BH 5.5m BB 7m ish EP 7.0m ish = 19.5 ish million. If we sign a 9-10m ish forward july first lets take 9.5 we are standing at 29m ish dollars per year for 4 forwards. Yes I agree the cap will go up however I'm hoping these are not the only good forwards we have in 2 years.

 

My proposal

 

Canucks 1st round pick (remember it is only pick number 10 over all not 1st 2nd or 3rd overall) for William Nylander and Patrick Marleau. if Marleau agrees to this trade Toronto I believe takes this trade and runs away faster then Usain Bolt LOL. 

 

Why the Canucks Make this trade:

This draft is weak just my opinion, but when the top prospects not including Jack Hughes are from the states and the WHL the draft is weak. First must of the Americans in the top 10 played on Hughes team that just tells me that there stats could be padded. 2nd WHL players take longer to develop there NHL game then top league Euro or OHL players. 3rd there currently are no WHL goalies being consider as most draft in n this years class of goalies. Look at the NHL you will be hard pressed to find a WHL gaoling in the top league, the WHL simply doesn't develop top tier goals. It is one of the reason why I tell people WHL players are not the best NHL first round picks the top WHL players all have the stats padded by the lack of any top goalies in there league. Any good scout would scout top players going up against top goalies in there league and seeing how they fair against them.

 

So my argument is that if we pick a player at #10 we are looking 2-3 years down the road before he develops into an NHL player if he ever does and yet this is exactly what Toronto needs at the moment a player that can replace a roster spot a cheap rate in the future and is not contending for a spot today. 

 

The Canucks need Nylander today because we need someone today to play with BO either BH and BB play together or BH and MN play together either way we need someone. Nylander fits perfect due to the fact he can score but is a playmakers even more which would help BO and his other linemate score more goals and help on the PP as well. There is something inside me that would like to see Nylander play with EP Cause they are very similar type players. With EP shot An WN playmaking abilities I could see EP getting to 40-50 goals. There is no one to feed to EP. BB is a shooter I would call him a pure goal scorer but EP has every tool Playmaker Goal scorer speed Hockey IQ he finds the open area he just doesn't have the playmaker. I will stop here cause this is another discussion altogether. BB needs a EP But EP needs a WN type player.

 

Why we have to Take Marleau, simple the trade cant happen without it Toronto needs cap relieve a tenth pick isn't s certainty but signing Marner would become one.

 

Can the Canucks take on the cap hit, yes I ran it through Capfriendly, however can the Canucks fix there D NO not this year unless they can do it through trade ie. 1 for 1 type thing, when I ran the numbers I had Edler @ 6mill Hutton @ 3mill Sheen @ 1.5mill.

 

Edler  Tanev

Hutton Stecher 

Hughes Sheen

Biega

 

Maybe For next season this doesn't look so bad it is a switch from the beginning of this season a cheap version Gudbransson in Sheen and one that actually throws his body and a new offensive weapon in Hughes. And hopefully better versions of Hutton and Stecher and Healthier Edler and Tanev maybe that's pushing to far :). 

 

Why NYlander is better for the Cap. He is cap friendly for the next 5 years at just under 7 mill. 9.5 mill guy minus Nylanders 7 mill = 2.5 mill after this season to acquire new defence or obtain another top 6 forward.

 

You will always find no matter what proposal I give you one thing will always remain constant  management cant fix all the problems this team faces this season in one trade or one signing. So I would always tell any fan base we must remain patient. However, i would argue there are deals out there that can be and should be made. We the fan base shouldnt have to settle for 2nd teir UFA signings any more.  

 

 

FYI

It was pointed out that I spelled Toronto wrong in the Title I would just like to tell anyone who cares about it I'm keeping it that way I a genuinely nice easy going person, but some people aren't and feel the need to comment on spelling mistakes maybe they are English teachers or Professors. But even English Professors make mistakes in spelling. Maybe these people are mistake free in there life I would tell you to go make a mistake and become human like the rest of us.

 

 

 

FYI - Threads such as these belong in Proposals and Armchair GMing and not Canucks Talk. I have taken the liberty of moving it for you and adding a tag. Please be mindful of the correct subforums in the future. Thanks!

[theo5789]

1 hour ago, ChuckNORRIS4Cup said:

Why would people want a rat like Kadri?

 

He hurts your team more then good one little hit on him and he loses his mind, then he takes a stupid penalty and puts your team in a bad position, heck maybe even gets suspended so how does that help your team? Kadri constantly has the Refs watching him more to make sure he doesn't do anything cheap when he's on the ice, why would you want to bring a guy like that to the team so the Refs have a reason to hate on the Canucks more, I would stay far away from Kadri let him stay a Leaf so he can continue to hurt their team.

For the same reason we brought in someone like Roussel. But at the same time, maybe one is enough.

[Canucklehead73]

Toronto would ask JB if it was a joke... who would give up a #10 1st round pick for a soft over priced player who failed to live up to his hold out... AND take on a 6 million dollar headache off his plate. Dubas would be offering the number to the local medical facilities because JB I'd obviously having a nervous breakdown and not thinking straight...

 

This is a terrible trade for the Canucks....

[theo5789]

17 hours ago, onesmallleap said:

1 big problem , if EP even matches his production , he'll be inline for 9-12 mil salary

Matches his production. He put up 66 points in 71 games or 76 points in a full season. Impressive numbers for sure, but even at 76 points, he doesn't even break the top 30 in points this season. 9-12 million would put him in the top 10 paid players in the game. I love EP, but he would certainly need to improve his numbers and his overall game to get that type of contract.

[Pears]

I don’t think utilizing cap space means giving up a top 10 pick to take on $16.5 million in cap space. 

Edited April 28, 2019 by Pears
correction