J.T. Miller | #9 | C/W

[Wilbur]

JT working his way up the all-time Canuck scoring list, now into 59th with his assist tonight.

 

58.  Dave Babych	D	409	23	131	154
59.  J.T. Miller	LW	151	51	95	146
60.  Gary Lupul	LW	293	70	75	145

[Captain Canuck #12]

2 hours ago, Wilbur said:

JT working his way up the all-time Canuck scoring list, now into 59th with his assist tonight.

 

58.  Dave Babych	D	409	23	131	154
59.  J.T. Miller	LW	151	51	95	146
60.  Gary Lupul	LW	293	70	75	145

LOOOOOP!

[-AJ-]

9 points (2G, 7A) in this strong stretch of 7 games by the Canucks for Miller.

[Shirotashi]

On 12/13/2021 at 4:11 AM, -AJ- said:

9 points (2G, 7A) in this strong stretch of 7 games by the Canucks for Miller.

That pass to Horvat for the GWG last game thooooooo.............. 

I feel like he has not even reached his full potential yet which is amazing. 

By far our best player through and through.  I feel like hes going to break out with

a few goals over the next few games. 

[Timråfan]

49 minutes ago, Shirotashi said:

That pass to Horvat for the GWG last game thooooooo.............. 

I feel like he has not even reached his full potential yet which is amazing. 

By far our best player through and through.  I feel like hes going to break out with

a few goals over the next few games. 

It’s quite fun that he seems to evolve.

The only thing is that he and Petey should be on different lines because they aren’t a fit mentally. But it might be Greens system/tactics also.

 

But if we could get him for 6x5 mill it might be worth it as his skills probably keep him alive til then.

Hell, even Loui scores as a 36 year old…

 

 

 

[Maniwaki Canuck]

I think the only question is whether JT wants to stay here.  The more we rebound as a team, the more likely he will want to.  If he does, there shouldn't be any huge obstacle to re-signing him.

A common claim is that we can only re-sign two of JT, Brock and Bo.  I'm not at all convinced.   Next year, the cap goes up 1M and we gain 3M from Luongo.  Even if half of that goes to Brock, we have an extra 2M, a bit of which might go to a raise for Motte.  Let's say we still have 1M after re-upping those two.  The following year Bo and JT are due.  The Holtby and Virtanen buyouts end, which gives us 2.4M.  Hamonic comes off the books which gives us 3M.  That's more than enough to sign those two in the 7M range with whatever amount of term it takes to get a deal.  It would possibly mean going cheap on our bottom pair RD, but Burroughs and Juulsen give us good options there and maybe Woo is ready by then.  So it can definitely be done.  

[aGENT]

1 hour ago, Maniwaki Canuck said:

I think the only question is whether JT wants to stay here.  The more we rebound as a team, the more likely he will want to.  If he does, there shouldn't be any huge obstacle to re-signing him.

A common claim is that we can only re-sign two of JT, Brock and Bo.  I'm not at all convinced.   Next year, the cap goes up 1M and we gain 3M from Luongo.  Even if half of that goes to Brock, we have an extra 2M, a bit of which might go to a raise for Motte.  Let's say we still have 1M after re-upping those two.  The following year Bo and JT are due.  The Holtby and Virtanen buyouts end, which gives us 2.4M.  Hamonic comes off the books which gives us 3M.  That's more than enough to sign those two in the 7M range with whatever amount of term it takes to get a deal.  It would possibly mean going cheap on our bottom pair RD, but Burroughs and Juulsen give us good options there and maybe Woo is ready by then.  So it can definitely be done.  

Problem is, you still need to replace those expiring guys like Hamonic. Even at/near league min, that's still ~$1m each you need to subtract from your numbers. It also does little to rectify the imbalance between our deep F group and our thin (at least/especially on the top end) D group.

 

IMO, it just makes sense to move a top F for a top D to correct that imbalance. We'd still have a deep F group (especially if a few guys in the Klimovich, McDonagh, Lockwood, Costmar, Jasek, Karlsson, this year's first etc group can contribute over the next couple years).

Edited December 16, 2021 by aGENT

[Maniwaki Canuck]

10 minutes ago, aGENT said:

Problem is, you still need to replace those expiring guys like Hamonic. Even at/near league min, that's still ~$1m each you need to subtract from your numbers. It also does little to rectify the imbalance between our deep F group and our thin (at least/especially on the top end) D group.

 

IMO, it just makes sense to move a top F for a top D to correct that imbalance. We'd still have a deep F group (especially if a few guys in the Klimovich, McDonagh, Lockwood, Costmar, Jasek, Karlsson, this year's first etc group can contribute over the next couple years).

Those are all fair points, especially about the balance between F/D.  My point was just that it's possible to re-up those 3 when many people assume that it isn't.  Even subtracting 1M for a Hamonic replacement it works out with a little to spare. 

What is best for the team is a separate and more complicated matter that Rutherford will be assessing.  In a cap world, you have to bet on some strengths and try to get by on some weaknesses.   I see this year as a bet on our forwards:  Boudreau is the right coach to get the most out of them and hopefully our D can continue to hold up under his style of play.  Going this route makes some sense when you have the kind of goaltending we do but it may not be sustainable in the long run.  At that point, look at rebalancing by all means.  But for now it's great to be playing to our strengths instead of our weaknesses, which is how Green killed this team.

However it works out, we're  lucky to have the forwards in our system you mention as well as the bargain basement D I did to piece together the cheap part of the equation.  It means we can respond to whatever deficiencies we've got once the team is evaluated under new management.

[aGENT]

11 minutes ago, Maniwaki Canuck said:

Those are all fair points, especially about the balance between F/D.  My point was just that it's possible to re-up those 3 when many people assume that it isn't.  Even subtracting 1M for a Hamonic replacement it works out with a little to spare. 

What is best for the team is a separate and more complicated matter that Rutherford will be assessing.  In a cap world, you have to bet on some strengths and try to get by on some weaknesses.   I see this year as a bet on our forwards:  Boudreau is the right coach to get the most out of them and hopefully our D can continue to hold up under his style of play.  Going this route makes some sense when you have the kind of goaltending we do but it may not be sustainable in the long run.  At that point, look at rebalancing by all means.  But for now it's great to be playing to our strengths instead of our weaknesses, which is how Green killed this team.

However it works out, we're  lucky to have the forwards in our system you mention as well as the bargain basement D I did to piece together the cheap part of the equation.  It means we can respond to whatever deficiencies we've got once the team is evaluated under new management.

For sure.

 

I think the other concern with Miller in particular is in another 1.5 years (as much as I/everyone loves the guy and his compete) do we really want to be in the position of extending him for 6-8 years at $7m+?

 

I mean if he'll agree on an 4, maybe 5 year deal at no more than $7m... Maybe. But I don't think we can tie up that money in the latter half of a 6-8 year deal, given the age of the rest of this core.

[Rindiculous]

1 hour ago, aGENT said:

Problem is, you still need to replace those expiring guys like Hamonic. Even at/near league min, that's still ~$1m each you need to subtract from your numbers. It also does little to rectify the imbalance between our deep F group and our thin (at least/especially on the top end) D group.

 

IMO, it just makes sense to move a top F for a top D to correct that imbalance. We'd still have a deep F group (especially if a few guys in the Klimovich, McDonagh, Lockwood, Costmar, Jasek, Karlsson, this year's first etc group can contribute over the next couple years).

I think the top end of our D group is really strong.  We got Hughes and OEL (a top 10 and top 40 D in the league), and then Myers as a number 3 and I feel he’s been great for the last couple years.  It’s out bottom end D that needs to be rounded out.  The #4-6 D always seem to be in flux for us due to injuries, guys not playing well etc.  even when healthy, Schenn is likely still in our lineup when he should probably still be a 7D.  We have the most expensive D core in the league and that’s because our top end D are so good.  We don’t need more of those, we need more depth.

[Maniwaki Canuck]

Just now, aGENT said:

For sure.

 

I think the other concern with Miller in particular is in another 1.5 years (as much as I/everyone loves the guy and his compete) do we really want to be in the position of extending him for 6-8 years at $7m+?

 

I mean if he'll agree on an 4, maybe 5 year deal at no more than $7m... Maybe. But I don't think we can tie up that money in the latter half of a 6-8 year deal, given the age of the rest of this core.

It's not an easy question.  I'd rather overpay a bit or go a year too long than gut the team again by walking away from a heart and soul player.  The guy is  Mr. Everything on this team.  If the choice is living with a bad final year or two of, say, a 6 yr. deal or trying to replace him (which we won't) in a year and a half, I'm going with the former.  But of course he will have some say in the matter, which might make this discussion irrelevant.

[aGENT]

52 minutes ago, Rindiculous said:

I think the top end of our D group is really strong.  We got Hughes and OEL (a top 10 and top 40 D in the league), and then Myers as a number 3 and I feel he’s been great for the last couple years.  It’s out bottom end D that needs to be rounded out.  The #4-6 D always seem to be in flux for us due to injuries, guys not playing well etc.  even when healthy, Schenn is likely still in our lineup when he should probably still be a 7D.  We have the most expensive D core in the league and that’s because our top end D are so good.  We don’t need more of those, we need more depth.

Well, you said it. 3 of our top 4 D are pretty great to decent. We're still missing that other guy to play with Hughes though IMO. Particularly long term. Let's also not forget that we've only got Myers for a couple more years after this one. We need a succession plan there. And OEL is likely to regress to 2nd pair quality as he ages.

 

I'm not too worried about our depth D. We've got D prospects (Woo, Rathbone, Myrenberg, Truscott, Persson, Jurmo, Utunen, Juulsen etc), some of whom should develop to replace guys like Hamonic as they expire (and we'll continue to draft, trade for guys etc). Burroughs has been decent as a bottom pair/spare guy, Schenn's a good 6/7 guy, Poolman's a good bottom pair guy and bottom 4 D in general don't tend to be TOO hard to find as UFA's etc. And if we can shore up the top 4, the bottom pair/spare guys also don't need to play as much as the top 4 covers 45-50 minutes of ice time and generally harder situations.

 

Quality over quantity.

 

We have the most expensive D core? I'm pretty confident that's not true. Off the top of my head, I'm pretty sure SJS have us beat and I'm sure there's a few other teams as well.

 

Edit: There are definitely other teams as, or more expensive. SJS, COL, NJD, VGK once Martinez is off IR and that's with Hague and Whitecloud still on ELC's that expire this year... 

Edited December 16, 2021 by aGENT

[Rindiculous]

3 minutes ago, aGENT said:

 

We have the most expensive D core? I'm pretty confident that's not true. Off the top of my head, I'm pretty sure SJS have us beat and I'm sure there's a few other teams as well.

Yah you’re correct.  It was something a lot of people kept on saying at the beginning of the year so I was making a bit of a hyperbole.  We’re not that far off San Jose however.  31 mill D vs a 28 mill D when all are healthy.  And I’m not saying having an expensive D is a knock.  I’m just saying we have top end D that are currently making our D core better than many people thought.

[Shirotashi]

11 hours ago, Timråfan said:

It’s quite fun that he seems to evolve.

The only thing is that he and Petey should be on different lines because they aren’t a fit mentally. But it might be Greens system/tactics also.

 

But if we could get him for 6x5 mill it might be worth it as his skills probably keep him alive til then.

Hell, even Loui scores as a 36 year old…

 

 

 

Hes not going to sign that low but I get you. I think for him 3 year maybe 4 year deals are going 

to be the max he will see, and he knows that. Buuut if the term was a sticking point for him in re-signing 

then I would buckle hes that good. Him, Hughes, Demko and Pettersson are our best players. I have Miller

edging out as THE best because of his leadership abilities. 

[Coconuts]

4 hours ago, aGENT said:

For sure.

 

I think the other concern with Miller in particular is in another 1.5 years (as much as I/everyone loves the guy and his compete) do we really want to be in the position of extending him for 6-8 years at $7m+?

 

I mean if he'll agree on an 4, maybe 5 year deal at no more than $7m... Maybe. But I don't think we can tie up that money in the latter half of a 6-8 year deal, given the age of the rest of this core.

The other thing is while Miller might be an absolute monster right now, he'll be 29 in March. He may very well be at the peak of his powers right now, and if he's not it'll likely be over the next year or two. Trading him makes the present team worse up front, there's risk there. But there's also risk that comes with retaining him, because Miller at almost 29 likely isn't the same player as Miller at 32 and beyond. 

 

Moving him out is a gamble, but so is keeping him. Especially if he commands 7M+ and term, which he absolutely can and should as a pending UFA. Getting him for anything less is likely a pipe dream, not impossible, but a pipe dream. By moving him out you're at least guaranteed assets that could be used to bolster other areas of the team or our questionable prospect depth that is now devoid of top end guys outside of Klimovich. 

 

Liking Miller at 28 isn't the same as liking Miller at 32. Will he fall off a cliff? Probably not, but will we be contenders in a year or two? That's a tough question to answer, but I doubt it. If we're keeping someone around as a vet I'd prioritize the younger guy in Bo who wins faceoffs, is the team captain, and can provide offense. Maybe not as much as Miller, but Bo's the tougher guy for us to replace imo. 

 

4 hours ago, Rindiculous said:

I think the top end of our D group is really strong.  We got Hughes and OEL (a top 10 and top 40 D in the league), and then Myers as a number 3 and I feel he’s been great for the last couple years.  It’s out bottom end D that needs to be rounded out.  The #4-6 D always seem to be in flux for us due to injuries, guys not playing well etc.  even when healthy, Schenn is likely still in our lineup when he should probably still be a 7D.  We have the most expensive D core in the league and that’s because our top end D are so good.  We don’t need more of those, we need more depth.

The same age rationale can be applied to our D too though. Myers will be 32 in February, he's signed for two more seasons after this one and he'll be 34 when his deal is over. OEL will be 31 next July, he should be good for a while yet but he should be on the downswing of his career sooner than later. Hughes is young enough not to worry about, but Hamonic is signed for another year and will be 32 in August. Even Poolman will be 29 before the beginning of next season roles around. 

 

Our D may look respectable when healthy, especially under superior coaching staff, but there's no question that it's aging and that we'll need to replace a minimum of Myers and Hamonic sooner than later. The replacement of Myers will likely be mostly covered by the 6M Myers currently makes, but there's no way we're getting a top 4 guy via UFA to replace Hamonic for 3M or less. We should absolutely be looking to get younger on D. 

Edited December 16, 2021 by Coconuts

[Phil_314]

56 minutes ago, Coconuts said:

The other thing is while Miller might be an absolute monster right now, he'll be 29 in March. He may very well be at the peak of his powers right now, and if he's not it'll likely be over the next year or two. Trading him makes the present team worse up front, there's risk there. But there's also risk that comes with retaining him, because Miller at almost 29 likely isn't the same player as Miller at 32 and beyond. 

 

Moving him out is a gamble, but so is keeping him. Especially if he commands 7M+ and term, which he absolutely can and should as a pending UFA. Getting him for anything less is likely a pipe dream, not impossible, but a pipe dream. By moving him out you're at least guaranteed assets that could be used to bolster other areas of the team or our questionable prospect depth that is now devoid of top end guys outside of Klimovich. 

 

Liking Miller at 28 isn't the same as liking Miller at 32. Will he fall off a cliff? Probably not, but will we be contenders in a year or two? That's a tough question to answer, but I doubt it. If we're keeping someone around as a vet I'd prioritize the younger guy in Bo who wins faceoffs, is the team captain, and can provide offense. Maybe not as much as Miller, but Bo's the tougher guy for us to replace imo. 

 

The same age rationale can be applied to our D too though. Myers will be 32 in February, he's signed for two more seasons after this one and he'll be 34 when his deal is over. OEL will be 31 next July, he should be good for a while yet but he should be on the downswing of his career sooner than later. Hughes is young enough not to worry about, but Hamonic is signed for another year and will be 32 in August. Even Poolman will be 29 before the beginning of next season roles around. 

 

Our D may look respectable when healthy, especially under superior coaching staff, but there's no question that it's aging and that we'll need to replace a minimum of Myers and Hamonic sooner than later. The replacement of Myers will likely be mostly covered by the 6M Myers currently makes, but there's no way we're getting a top 4 guy via UFA to replace Hamonic for 3M or less. We should absolutely be looking to get younger on D. 

Agreed that ultimately either J.T. or Bo needs to get traded and the other re-signed with leadership responsibilities; we would get quite the haul for trading either of them as has been discussed at length.  So, I would rather move on to comment on the RD situation.

Agreed that Hamonic is already showing signs of decline (might be due to reduced game time this season, who knows) but thankfully Myers, and Schenn in particular (looking like a right-handed Marc Methot to Quinn's Erik Karlsson) have really stepped up and provided that valuable depth, and bought time for the RHD successor to be found and hopefully acquired.  I think it's almost concensus that one of Bo/ J.T./ Brock would be the piece going out to get that guy, and I hope J.R. makes the right move for this core moving forward. 

[Coconuts]

10 minutes ago, Phil_314 said:

Agreed that ultimately either J.T. or Bo needs to get traded and the other re-signed with leadership responsibilities; we would get quite the haul for trading either of them as has been discussed at length.  So, I would rather move on to comment on the RD situation.

Agreed that Hamonic is already showing signs of decline (might be due to reduced game time this season, who knows) but thankfully Myers, and Schenn in particular (looking like a right-handed Marc Methot to Quinn's Erik Karlsson) have really stepped up and provided that valuable depth, and bought time for the RHD successor to be found and hopefully acquired.  I think it's almost concensus that one of Bo/ J.T./ Brock would be the piece going out to get that guy, and I hope J.R. makes the right move for this core moving forward. 

Earlier in the thread it was asked whether people would prefer to move out Boeser or Miller, my answer has always been Miller for a number of reasons. But the more I think about it, the more I consider that it may very well end up being both of them. Is it likely? I don't think so, but that depends entirely what the offers are and how far off our management group (once fully assembled or otherwise) thinks we are from truly contending. Pettersson and Hughes are young enough that 2-3 seasons aint the end of the world. Same goes for Demko. Going into next season with Horvat, Garland, Podkolzin, Pearson, and Hoglander may not be the end of the world, assuming there'd be further additions if Miller/Boeser/both were moved. 

 

If it's one or the other I still lean towards keeping Boeser, largely because of his being younger and my assumption that he's better than he's looked this season under Green. I also see him as more likely to want to stay, though that's admittedly my own personal speculation and I've nothing to base it on. But yeah, I'm strongly of the opinion that one of the two should be moved out to upgrade our D. 

 

I don't see Horvat being the guy, he's irreplaceable to the Canucks in my eyes. Miller provides more offense, but being perhaps the emotional leader of the team doesn't negate what Bo brings. We don't have anyone in our system, professionally or as a prospect, who can replace what Bo brings. Last I heard he leads the NHL in faceoffs taken by like 100 more than the next guy, we don't have anyone else who can be relied on to consistently win draws imo. Not only that, he provides offense, and yes, leadership (I don't care if anyone disagrees with me on that, I'm not gonna go down the rabbit hole of what your view of leadership is as opposed to mine). Bo would be the guy I absolutely prioritize keeping because good luck replacing him, especially via UFA. 

 

Schenn's been steady but I'd still look for an upgrade. Who goes, who stays, what and who is brought in if a trade is made.. it's gonna be interesting. Tough calls for incoming mangement. 

Edited December 16, 2021 by Coconuts

[Phat Fingers]

6 hours ago, aGENT said:

For sure.

 

I think the other concern with Miller in particular is in another 1.5 years (as much as I/everyone loves the guy and his compete) do we really want to be in the position of extending him for 6-8 years at $7m+?

 

I mean if he'll agree on an 4, maybe 5 year deal at no more than $7m... Maybe. But I don't think we can tie up that money in the latter half of a 6-8 year deal, given the age of the rest of this core.

With the way Miller plays, I would sign him.  This isn’t Loui Player Name we’re talking about it’s JT &^@#ing Miller.  This guy plays the way I want Podz to play,  JT is our best Power Forward since Bertuzzi.  

 

Where would we be right now with out JT Miller and who do we replace him with?  
 

Rutherford will make moves and if JT is gone, it better be for a kings ransom, he has been a much better player than anyone expected when JB dealt for him.  
 

Kinda love the forwards atm, Bruce has let them lose, Petey is still clutching a bit tight, but with Demko and this team, playing the way it was built to play, fast counter attacking and activating the defence, it has worked. 
 

Don’t know why or what Green couldn’t get out of the same crew, but there is some exciting hockey being  played in the last few games and it has made it easier for our defence.  
 

it’s what I thought was the plan from pre season, but it failed horribly and now it’s all new again.  
 

playoffs, 4 points out atm.  
 

 

Edited December 16, 2021 by Phat Fingers

[aGENT]

2 hours ago, Coconuts said:

The other thing is while Miller might be an absolute monster right now, he'll be 29 in March. He may very well be at the peak of his powers right now, and if he's not it'll likely be over the next year or two. Trading him makes the present team worse up front, there's risk there. But there's also risk that comes with retaining him, because Miller at almost 29 likely isn't the same player as Miller at 32 and beyond. 

 

Moving him out is a gamble, but so is keeping him. Especially if he commands 7M+ and term, which he absolutely can and should as a pending UFA. Getting him for anything less is likely a pipe dream, not impossible, but a pipe dream. By moving him out you're at least guaranteed assets that could be used to bolster other areas of the team or our questionable prospect depth that is now devoid of top end guys outside of Klimovich. 

 

Liking Miller at 28 isn't the same as liking Miller at 32. Will he fall off a cliff? Probably not, but will we be contenders in a year or two? That's a tough question to answer, but I doubt it. If we're keeping someone around as a vet I'd prioritize the younger guy in Bo who wins faceoffs, is the team captain, and can provide offense. Maybe not as much as Miller, but Bo's the tougher guy for us to replace imo. 

 

The same age rationale can be applied to our D too though. Myers will be 32 in February, he's signed for two more seasons after this one and he'll be 34 when his deal is over. OEL will be 31 next July, he should be good for a while yet but he should be on the downswing of his career sooner than later. Hughes is young enough not to worry about, but Hamonic is signed for another year and will be 32 in August. Even Poolman will be 29 before the beginning of next season roles around. 

Agreed with pretty much all of the above.

 

2 hours ago, Coconuts said:

Our D may look respectable when healthy, especially under superior coaching staff, but there's no question that it's aging and that we'll need to replace a minimum of Myers and Hamonic sooner than later. The replacement of Myers will likely be mostly covered by the 6M Myers currently makes, but there's no way we're getting a top 4 guy via UFA to replace Hamonic for 3M or less. We should absolutely be looking to get younger on D. 

Woo is projecting to hopefully fill a lot of Hamonic's role for minimal money. Juulsen hopefully also continues to be an option there/7th D moving forward. Between those two guys I think we're fairly good for the bottom pair, right side to replace Hamonic in due time. What make sense to me is packaging one of Miller/Boeser with Rathbone for the top pair RD with size that we need.

 

41 minutes ago, Phat Fingers said:

With the way Miller plays, I would sign him.  This isn’t Loui Player Name we’re talking about it’s JT &^@#ing Miller.  This guy plays the way I want Podz to play,  JT is our best Power Forward since Bertuzzi.  

With the way Miller plays, he might also wear down faster...

 

41 minutes ago, Phat Fingers said:

 

Where would we be right now with out JT Miller and who do we replace him with?  

You don't replace him. Not easily/readily anyway. Perhaps eventually with a prospect, trade etc. Podkolzin likely fills a similar role eventually. But right now you simply don't. You sacrifice the right now for the 2 years from now with the team more fleshed out and guys like Petey, Hughes, Podkolzin, Hoglander etc are in their actual primes and complimented with cheaper younger pieces you get from trading Miller... instead of a 30+, expensive, wearing and slowing down Miller.

 

Do you want to be slightly better right now when we're not ready to contend, or better when we are? That's what it really comes down to.

 

Besides, we could also say sign someone like Nick Paul this summer and roll with Horvat, Pettersson, Paul, Lammiko/Jasek/Focht etc as our C depth which is still pretty darn good. 

 

41 minutes ago, Phat Fingers said:

Rutherford will make moves and if JT is gone, it better be for a kings ransom, he has been a much better player than anyone expected when JB dealt for him.  

Yeah the return/if/when we move him will not be small.

[Shekky]

Team is really alive now Miller was mic'd up for the game here's the video I find it interesting the interactions the players have.