Jim Benning Proved Me Wrong

[CallAfterLife]

15 minutes ago, khay said:

Trading Boeser because he "might" cause JT to be paid upwards of 8 mil, 3 years later, is indeed what an alarmist would do.

 

I feel like if EP and Hughes contracts are only little bit north of 8, say 8.5 or 9, that would set up a very nice salary structure for the team moving forward. And Boeser's next contract will fit within 6-7 range, unless he reaches his potential and becomes a consistent 40 goal scorer.

I'm optimistic about Pettersson and Hughes signing fair contracts. I think both these players understand that a small financial sacrifice on their part is necessary in order to build the type of team they themselves would like to be a part of. 

 

Thomas Chabot is comparable to Hughes and he's only signed for $8 million. 

 

I think whatever amount Mathew Barzal signs for could indicate Pettersson's contract. 

[Lazurus]

On 9/7/2020 at 12:19 AM, spur1 said:

You may want to take a math class with your spare Covid time. 

 

On 9/7/2020 at 1:03 AM, Chickenspear said:

That would actually be a raise of a little over 36%, if $8m was his next contract. A 10% raise would be $6,462,500.

 

On 9/7/2020 at 11:48 AM, CallAfterLife said:

Boeser will still be an RFA in 2022 so even if his base salary is $7.5 million by then the Canucks can still go to arbitration if Boeser doesn't produce the numbers that justifies that or a higher amount for his next contract. 

 

Players like Pettersson and Hughes will get paid upwards of $8 million. No question.

 

But there's a reason not every 50 point player in the NHL makes $8 million. Jake Guentzel in Pittsburg is getting paid $6 million because everyone knows that his production is dependent on Crosby and Malkin. If Benning chooses to re-sign Miller he'll likely be in that boat.

 

And this is where I don't get why you're such an alarmist about the cap. Miller is still signed for another 3 years. We don't know what his next contract will look like and we don't know where the Canucks will be at that time. For all we know, Podkolzin, Lind and Hoglander or whoever else Benning has drafted will be able to take Miller's place. For all we know Miller could be dealt for picks or prospects before his contract is up and however much he'll be worth by then won't be Benning's problem. 

 

23 hours ago, khay said:

Trading Boeser because he "might" cause JT to be paid upwards of 8 mil, 3 years later, is indeed what an alarmist would do.

 

I feel like if EP and Hughes contracts are only little bit north of 8, say 8.5 or 9, that would set up a very nice salary structure for the team moving forward. And Boeser's next contract will fit within 6-7 range, unless he reaches his potential and becomes a consistent 40 goal scorer.

 

 

Just thought I would try to reply to all these at once.

 

First look at the contract not the cap hit. The last year he gets 7.5 mil meaning a qualifying offer is a minimum is 10% increase

One post refers to taking him to arbitration, this  would mean the team isn't happy with him but that would be after these other deals need to get done.

 

It is that this deal was based on a small sample size but it sets what this team is willing to pay for whatever he gets for points

If you take him to arbitration then you might as well trade him now because that would indicate a loss of faith in Boeser.

But it is not Boeser it is these other contracts that would say "why not me?"

 

Making a Boeser deal before doesn't mean it is the player, just like Eriksson's contract or Rousell, Beagle or Sutter, those deals show that this group will over pay if there is just a little bit of push back, they just haven't done many really good contracts.

 

Fans can look at individual players with love and good feelings for them, but there are 100's of players in the league like them, it comes down to when decsions, ugly decisions have to be made, decisions that mean trading away a player like Linden, which really improved the team, have to be done for the team to step up to the next level.

 

After 7 years this team took a step forward and still needed some luck, they also traded away more top level draft picks and got even older. A Boeser deal can help this group even out future salary expectations in future negotiations and re-coop and maybe even improve the young prospects.

 

Pettersson and Hughes, great but where are the secondary guys? None are better than a 35 yr old grinder?

 

If the team had more really good prospects, guys that have shown they have more than the lowest level expected like MacEwen, then Boeser deal might not be necessary.

 

They are not going to win the cup next year, they may not even make the playoffs.

 

The cap creates problems but also offers opportunities for a rapid improvement in youth and secondary improvement.

 

Markstrom is the goalie of NOW and maybe two or three more years, the cost will be Demko either him being snapped up in expansion, who else would Seattle want? Demko just demonstrated that he is like a forward capable of scoring 40+ goals, or he leaves because he wants to be a #1 an get paid like one. And the capspace or hit..

 

Boeser has been a top six player, he has a big trade value. Moving him could get another player that could score 25 to 30 goals playing with Pettersson and Miller plus a top draft pick and cap space. What if the player they get back allows to Pettersson to score 40+ goals?

 

During the season thinking with the heart is understandable but the "business" of hockey should be the top priority and improvement at some time. Thinking with the head improves a team. Time is the enemy for GM's.

 

Success is measured by wins and points and how many people sit in the seats. Keep filling the arena, like they did in Edmonton and Toronto and there is not much imperative to improve the team, why bother? The arena is sold out anyway all that is needed is to have a good media manipulation to convince the masses to there is improvement. Look at the Canucks, they are filled with young players right? Nope, only 4 young guys, remember they were young 5 years ago, not now. Young is a Ottawa team or a Colorado team, now that is young almost a full year younger on average to the Canucks. Remember when they were too old? Avg age 27.7 yrs, now they are young at 27.7 yrs. Market manipulation. Van has 4 regulars under 24 yrs old, that is young, Colorado, Ottawa, Edmonton, Chicago all have more and they haven't been rebuilding throughout the draft for 7 years

 

One other quick bit, every year now for 7 years there has been "prospects" going to replace players, every year. And it has happened what? One player per year? And not a prospect but a traded player? So forget about any Canuck prospects as guaranteed replacements and improvements, for Benning the grass is always greener on the other side of the frence

Edited September 8, 2020 by Lazurus

[Yung1]

On 9/2/2020 at 6:29 AM, Duodenum said:

Drafting has been good. 

 

Defensive signings and trades have been awful (Gudbranson, Del Zotto as you mentioned). 

 

Bottom six is extremely pricey and, other than Motte, have not provided the depth scoring they should at their price tags. 

 

I'll reserve judgement for after this summer and how he deals with the impending cap crunch created by the bottom six overpayments. 

You cant look at it in these black and white terms. The point of this thread is the team environment and culture benning has developed, and make no mistake that he's done so intentionally. It's been his reasoning for making those moves all along.

 

The Canucks don't go as far as they did this year without Benning bringing in the sutters/beagles... Hell, even the Ryan Miller move kept us from being completely disrespected during those lean years, and I agree with the OP, that moves like that kept the vets from getting jaded and helped the kids grow in a much more positive environment.

 

Your comment basically ignored the entire point of this thread. Lol.

Edited September 8, 2020 by Yung1
Spelling

[iceman64]

On 9/2/2020 at 2:09 PM, King Heffy said:

I have a lot of respect for someone who knows they're wrong.  I had my doubts about Benning up until he moved Hansen and Burrows, then followed up and drafted Pettersson.  At that point, it became clear that Benning had a vision and is smarter than any of us.

Well my only knock he corrected we needed for years was getting players who were tougher-ish, the pushing us around scenario every year had to stop but he saw first hand how much more physical the playoff's were as he watched when we were out of the playoff picture. When I heard him say that about needing it, it was the biggest sigh of relief out of me in years.. 

 Sad the Sedins were wasted so much without the likes of an Anson Carter but if Petey, Hughes, Boes were still deemed open season I probably would have hung up my Vancouver Canucks fan hat in my heart and stopped watching.. 

 Pretty excited with the direction we're going that reflects JB's balancing act of size/skill, smallish skilled guys like Hughes shadowed by Myers.. and guys like Big Mac, on the rise is certainly refreshing.

 Yeah we got pushed around some in the post season but we dished our own out too 

[iceman64]

On 9/2/2020 at 5:25 PM, Petey40 said:

Letting Markstrom walk would be a massive mistake by Benning. He had 1 great game, that doesn’t mean he’s capable of being a starter and playing 60+ games a season yet. Does no one remember how awful our record was after Marky got hurt this year? You need 2 great goalies to be a great team, Marky and Demko is an awesome tandem. With Marky playing 52 games and Demko 30 it would be great experience for Demko to push for the starter position and not overwhelm him. I mean the kid has only played 37 career NHL games. Not resigning Markstrom is an awful idea IMO and would cripple the team next season.

 

Throw a pick at Seattle to not take Demko, tons of teams did that with Vegas so they wouldn’t take certain players. Holtby isn’t very good anymore and is incredibly streaky, I don’t think he’d be a good fit on this team.

Or.. sign Marky for a decent cap hit and then trade him to any team HE chooses as long as the return is good 

[Petey40]

6 minutes ago, iceman64 said:

Or.. sign Marky for a decent cap hit and then trade him to any team HE chooses as long as the return is good 

100% I would be on board with that, rumour that Vegas might already have a deal done with Lehner that is 5x5. I can’t imagine Markstrom would be worth more than Lehner so it’ll be interesting what Benning does and what Marky accepts. Guaranteed a lot of other teams will be chasing markstrom and willing to pay him.

[Baggins]

On 9/8/2020 at 10:42 AM, Lazurus said:

First look at the contract not the cap hit. The last year he gets 7.5 mil meaning a qualifying offer is a minimum is 10% increase

QUALIFYING OFFER CALCULATOR

• Teams must extend a qualifying offer to a restricted free agent to retain negotiation rights.
  • A qualifying offer is an official Standard Player Contract (SPC) offer which shall be 1 year in length, and which can be subject to salary arbitration should the player be eligible.
  • Clubs have until the later of June 25th or the first Monday after the Entry Draft to submit Qualifying Offers.
  • Qualifying Offers apply to Group 2 and Group 4 free agents.
  • Submitting a Qualifying Offers gives the prior club the right of first refusal to match any offer sheet submitted, or receive draft pick compensation.
  • If the player rejects the qualifying offer, they remain an RFA and their rights are retained by the team.
  • If a player does not receive a qualifying offer, the player becomes a UFA.
• The qualifying offer is calculated from the players base salary (NHL salary minus signing bonus), and at minimum must meet the seasons minimum salary requirements:
  • 110% of the base salary if the base salary is less than or equal to $660,000
  • 105% of the base salary if the base salary is greater than $660,000 or less than $1,000,000. However, this qualifying offer cannot exceed $1,000,000.
  • 100% of the base salary if the base salary is equal to or greater than $1,000,000.
  • CBA Reference 10.2 (a) (ii)

 

 

[iceman64]

2 hours ago, Baggins said:

QUALIFYING OFFER CALCULATOR

• Teams must extend a qualifying offer to a restricted free agent to retain negotiation rights.
  • A qualifying offer is an official Standard Player Contract (SPC) offer which shall be 1 year in length, and which can be subject to salary arbitration should the player be eligible.
  • Clubs have until the later of June 25th or the first Monday after the Entry Draft to submit Qualifying Offers.
  • Qualifying Offers apply to Group 2 and Group 4 free agents.
  • Submitting a Qualifying Offers gives the prior club the right of first refusal to match any offer sheet submitted, or receive draft pick compensation.
  • If the player rejects the qualifying offer, they remain an RFA and their rights are retained by the team.
  • If a player does not receive a qualifying offer, the player becomes a UFA.
• The qualifying offer is calculated from the players base salary (NHL salary minus signing bonus), and at minimum must meet the seasons minimum salary requirements:
  • 110% of the base salary if the base salary is less than or equal to $660,000
  • 105% of the base salary if the base salary is greater than $660,000 or less than $1,000,000. However, this qualifying offer cannot exceed $1,000,000.
  • 100% of the base salary if the base salary is equal to or greater than $1,000,000.
  • CBA Reference 10.2 (a) (ii)

 

 

I love that dekey Pete move. However that's what happens when you break the cardinal rule 101, play the man not the puck.. his jockstrap probably went past Chilliwack or before landing

[kanucks25]

On 9/6/2020 at 7:53 PM, fanfor42 said:

Benning has done a terrific job of rebuilding the team from where it was when he walked in.  What a mess.

 

If Green can learn to do as good a job as a coach we may have something.

 

 

What a mess. He only inherited his best two d-men, his young top-6 center and future captain, and the goalie that carried him to a non-bottom-feeding record this year, the only year he's made the playoffs in the 6 he's been here. And solid veterans that were still valued around the league like Hamhuis, Bieksa, Kesler, Burrows & Garrison. And the Sedins who were the perfect people to mentor and pave the way for the next core. Not to mention the 6th overall pick.

 

What a mess, a complete wasteland.

 

Lawl.  Complete fallacy.

 

 

[CanuckleHorse]

The coach I wished we had is now up 3-1 shots were 33-20 the stars are not much better than us just have a smarter coach.

[24K PureCool]

37 minutes ago, kanucks25 said:

What a mess. He only inherited his best two d-men, his young top-6 center and future captain, and the goalie that carried him to a non-bottom-feeding record this year, the only year he's made the playoffs in the 6 he's been here. And solid veterans that were still valued around the league like Hamhuis, Bieksa, Kesler, Burrows & Garrison. And the Sedins who were the perfect people to mentor and pave the way for the next core. Not to mention the 6th overall pick.

 

What a mess, a complete wasteland.

 

Lawl.  Complete fallacy.

 

 

That statement is the real fallacy. He made the playoffs the first year on the job.

[stanleysteamersmyl]

On 9/6/2020 at 3:28 PM, Lazurus said:

There can be no :meddling" owner than Ottawa's.

But his team has more young players of high quality playing NOW, with another two great drafts to come.

They were only 8 wins behind the Canucks with capspace of 7 mil and more coming off the books.

They will have 13 draft selections so far this year, a deep draft year, they will have had more first round picks in two years than Benning in 7 years, 7 rebuilding years.

So sure, I hope ownership cares enough for the team and the fans to do what is needed and get someone in there that can count and has some level of pride to perform far above average.

 

This team got some playoff experience and now they need to step back and finish the rebuild, two drafts, it could have this one draft but now it will be another year because Benning sold this year's draft.

 

MacCaw was a great owner eh? Almost had the team in Seattle in two seasons by ignoring the team, yeah, let's go in that direction again.

Miller > 2020 1st round pick

[kanucks25]

29 minutes ago, 24K PureCool said:

That statement is the real fallacy. He made the playoffs the first year on the job.

With 90% of the team he inherited, that "mess" of a team.

[kanucks25]

On 9/2/2020 at 6:13 AM, CallAfterLife said:

When Benning first came on as GM and started making a series of slight upgrades and lateral moves via trade in Sutter, Gudbranson, Prust etc and signing expensive UFAs like Miller, Schaller, Del Zotto etc I was left unimpressed. I thought Benning's efforts were futile. I actually distinctly remember derisively laughing when I heard him say that he was doing all of this so that the young players on the team could be brought up in a "winning environment." I thought the Sedins, Edler and Tanev would have been enough to mentor the next generation.  

 

But I was wrong. 

 

Benning's willingness to improve the team, despite mixed results, guarded Edler and Tanev from becoming jaded and lazy during the team's roughest years. Unlike the vets on some perennial losing teams that just play to cash a giant paycheque, Edler and Tanev are just as hungry to win now as they were back in 2011. They may not be leading the team in points but their passion to win has really stood out. 

 

Whatever happens against Vegas, I want to salute Jim Benning and the winning environment he's built in Vancouver. The Canucks are once again Canada's best hope of bringing the Stanley Cup home. 

 

Though I will say that the biggest mistake Benning has made so far was not demanding Shea Theodore in return for Ryan Kesler. Theodore has been an absolute terror. Or at least taking on Pavel Datsyuk's contract in order to draft Jakob Chychurn, the Canucks clearly lack a #2 puck mover to back up Hughes. Here's hoping Juolevi, Rathbone or Rafferty can give the Canucks that option.

Winning environment? We've been bottom feeders for the majority of time Benning's been on the job.

Not that I expected a winner during a rebuild, but there wasn't much competitiveness or winning going around. I'd give more credit to the quality veterans he inherited that made sure the locker room didn't become a negative environment despite all the losing.

 

On 9/2/2020 at 11:01 AM, oldnews said:

If his biggest mistake is not demanding Theodore....well, we don't know that.

He had very little leverage in that deal with Anaheim - a public list of two teams on Kesler's wave of his clause.

Bonino - alone - has been better than Kesler at all points since that deal - and returned Sutter.  McCann has become Gud and now Pearson.  Sbisa buffered the team in the expansion draft (and went on to command a huge role on Vegas' extremely deep blueline before getting injured.

That was a solid take on the Kesler retool imo.   Anaheim...themselves, lacked the foresight to retain Theodore.

The man can do no wrong

[spook007]

7 hours ago, CanuckleHorse said:

The coach I wished we had is now up 3-1 shots were 33-20 the stars are not much better than us just have a smarter coach.

Could also be maybe Stars players are slightly more battle hardened... One of the reasons why Benning was so hell bent on getting the boys play offs experience...

Or maybe they have had a slightly easier route to the conference final...

 

The reasons is/could be many... no doubt Green have been learning on the job as well though.

[CallAfterLife]

54 minutes ago, spook007 said:

Could also be maybe Stars players are slightly more battle hardened... One of the reasons why Benning was so hell bent on getting the boys play offs experience...

Or maybe they have had a slightly easier route to the conference final...

 

The reasons is/could be many... no doubt Green have been learning on the job as well though.

Way too much nostalgia for 2011.

 

But what Bowness has done in Dallas has been impressive. I thought they wouldn't make it out of the round robin. 

[CanuckleHorse]

6 hours ago, spook007 said:

Could also be maybe Stars players are slightly more battle hardened... One of the reasons why Benning was so hell bent on getting the boys play offs experience...

Or maybe they have had a slightly easier route to the conference final...

 

The reasons is/could be many... no doubt Green have been learning on the job as well though.

We still see the same things happening it got worst as the series went on once they figure out his system it’s no contest why do people keep thinking he’s an NHL coach is beyond me.

[86Viking]

On 9/2/2020 at 6:13 AM, CallAfterLife said:

When Benning first came on as GM and started making a series of slight upgrades and lateral moves via trade in Sutter, Gudbranson, Prust etc and signing expensive UFAs like Miller, Schaller, Del Zotto etc I was left unimpressed. I thought Benning's efforts were futile. I actually distinctly remember derisively laughing when I heard him say that he was doing all of this so that the young players on the team could be brought up in a "winning environment." I thought the Sedins, Edler and Tanev would have been enough to mentor the next generation.  

 

But I was wrong. 

 

Benning's willingness to improve the team, despite mixed results, guarded Edler and Tanev from becoming jaded and lazy during the team's roughest years. Unlike the vets on some perennial losing teams that just play to cash a giant paycheque, Edler and Tanev are just as hungry to win now as they were back in 2011. They may not be leading the team in points but their passion to win has really stood out. 

 

Whatever happens against Vegas, I want to salute Jim Benning and the winning environment he's built in Vancouver. The Canucks are once again Canada's best hope of bringing the Stanley Cup home. 

 

Though I will say that the biggest mistake Benning has made so far was not demanding Shea Theodore in return for Ryan Kesler. Theodore has been an absolute terror. Or at least taking on Pavel Datsyuk's contract in order to draft Jakob Chychurn, the Canucks clearly lack a #2 puck mover to back up Hughes. Here's hoping Juolevi, Rathbone or Rafferty can give the Canucks that option.

Salute the GM who has us in cap hell with 19m in bad contracts not including Myers and we just turned the corner...I will give him a pass if he can get rid of some bad contracts and improve this team this off season. We need better D, so signing the same guys as they age isn't the best way to go imo. With age comes wisdom but also means players slow down.

 

GM needs to shake this roster up, Ship out the unmotivated Virtanen, move Sutter, bring in some skill and grit in Miles Wood. try to sign a decent #3c like Eakins or Haula? Don't cave to Markstrom's demands when you have Demko and can sign a good backup to help ease Demko into a #1 role.

 

Hope GM gets creative and shakes things up a bit. The sky isn't falling, we are trending up but we need to improve in a few areas. Also, fire the PP coach watching game was just pathetic. Need a fresh face with a new scheme for the PP.

 

Hopefully we have a productive off season and make some changes to the team.

[Honky Cat]

19 hours ago, kanucks25 said:

What a mess. He only inherited his best two d-men, his young top-6 center and future captain, and the goalie that carried him to a non-bottom-feeding record this year, the only year he's made the playoffs in the 6 he's been here. And solid veterans that were still valued around the league like Hamhuis, Bieksa, Kesler, Burrows & Garrison. And the Sedins who were the perfect people to mentor and pave the way for the next core. Not to mention the 6th overall pick.

 

What a mess, a complete wasteland.

 

Lawl.  Complete fallacy.

 

 

Every GM inherits players.Gillis inherited a complete young elite core..Benning inherited a 19 year old Horvat,  an empty prospect pool, and a 24 year old goalie on the verge of busting...Edler came through Nonis.

 

Made the playoffs his first year here (2015), and only missed the playoffs for four years (while the new core was taking shape), then made a splash for it this year.

 

After 2015,..How many years, in your opinion, should it have taken for this team to contend for the playoffs?

Edited September 14, 2020 by Honky Cat

[kanucks25]

57 minutes ago, Honky Cat said:

Every GM inherits players.Gillis inherited a complete young elite core..Benning inherited a 19 year old Horvat,  an empty prospect pool, and a 24 year old goalie on the verge of busting...Edler came through Nonis.

 

Made the playoffs his first year here (2015), and only missed the playoffs for four years (while the new core was taking shape), then made a splash for it this year.

 

After 2015,..How many years, in your opinion, should it have taken for this team to contend for the playoffs?

It's not a Benning vs. Gillis vs. Nonis issue; it's just a joke that people think that Benning was left with nothing when really he had a bunch of quality assets that could have been used to initiate the rebuild.

 

Either he inherited a terrible franchise or he shouldn't get much credit for the first year playoff run, it can't be both. Vrbata was a good signing and Miller was okay but they weren't the difference between a playoff team and a crap team. Bonino was good, I always liked him (and he's still a better/more valuable/more reliable player than Sutter) but at that point he wasn't an upgrade on Kesler... and don't even mention Sbisa.

 

And the timeline thing isn't the discussion here, especially since it's a mostly nonsensical discussion to have.

Edited September 14, 2020 by kanucks25