Why we are never in the conversation for big name trades in the Benning era?

[Guest]

18 minutes ago, Convincing John said:

Ok so signing those players got us where exactly? How many guys do we need in the locker room showing Horvat how to be a pro? The only thing they’re teaching our young players is how to work hard for a big contract so a roster spot is gifted to you because you’re being paid so much that you can’t be scratched or sent down. Imagine working wicked hard all summer and showing up to camp hoping to win a roster spot but Roussel is there. 

Cool culture. 

If you can't beat someone else for the spot then you don't deserve it.  

 

Hoglander had no issues beating other guys out for a spot and he deserved it.  The same will be true for any young guys coming in.  

 

Yanni Gourde played 6 seasons in the AHL.  Don't think he was pouting that he didn't have a spot handed to him. 

Anthony Cirelli played 3 different seasons in the AHL. 

Mathieu Joseph played the entire year two years ago with Tampa only to be sent back to the AHL last year for one third of the season.  

 

 

[knucklehead91]

3 minutes ago, Convincing John said:

Ok so signing those players got us where exactly? How many guys do we need in the locker room showing Horvat how to be a pro? The only thing they’re teaching our young players is how to work hard for a big contract so a roster spot is gifted to you because you’re being paid so much that you can’t be scratched or sent down. Imagine working wicked hard all summer and showing up to camp hoping to win a roster spot but Roussel is there. 

Cool culture. 

Woah… imagine 6mil 6’2” Loui Eriksson, the highest paid guy on the Canucks…losing his spot to a 5’9 guy on an ELC. Imagine that eh..

 

[GB5]

I'd rather have team depth overall. This takes patience to acquire and is the reason that all the prospects are graduating to the pro ranks.

[wai_lai416]

6 hours ago, Dazzle said:

I've seen your posts enough times to know that you'll ignore anything that counters your points, and you'll just circle back to your own point.

 

I think it's obvious that a certain group of posters will always bow towards Gillis like he's some kind of infallible god. While he did good things, the bad is really, really difficult to ignore. And what you're doing right now is painful to read.

 

Gillis wrecked this team so hard. As @knucklehead91 wrote in his super detailed post, which you'll probably never read because you won't have anything to come back with, a lot of the pieces o this team had little to do with Gillis. Tanev is one of the players he acquired, but aside from Horvat (who was acquired by trading Schneider - a goalie that gillis didn't draft), his drafting is piss poor. In pursuit of the cup, he basically bankrupted the team.

 

Look no further than the time period between the end of his tenure and Benning's. People are quick to say 7 years had passed. Well, anytime during Gillis' regime, he could've drafted an Edler replacement. Guess who's still on the team? Edler. And it had nothing to do with Gillis.

 

There's a reason why Gillis isn't seemingly welcome back in the NHL. He's been blackballed. Part of this reason was that he burned a lot of bridges with GMs, so the only trades he did were the ones where he got blatantly ripped off. And for all the praise that Gillis gets for signing players, you have to wonder how much he lucked out on the ones he signed for cheap. In general, Gillis inherited his core, and nearly destroyed this team in the process.

 

 

oh i don't think gillis is a god i mean he did botch a lot of contracts and NTC. but to blame him for a fail prospect pool coz the team was in a period where they were literally all in every year? in sports whether it's NBA NFL NHL MLB what team that's close to winning a championship year in year out doesn't go all in and bankrupt the team literally in terms of prospect? but saying benning is a drafting god coz he's drafting a top 10 pick every year and gillis is pure trash coz he's drafting in the late 20s every year i just find laughable. i mean to be fair it's not like when gillis took over the team from nonis the cupboard was stacked with prospect and he traded them all away to begin with. i honestly don't even know why we are talking about gillis.. benning have been here long enough and ppl keep referring back to it's all gillis fault blah blah blah.. 7 years later it's still gillis fault.. we will probably still be blaming gillis 50 years later when the team sucks again

[SID.IS.SID.ME.IS.ME]

On 7/6/2021 at 10:43 PM, lmm said:

Bingo

can you explain to Knuckle what I don't like about the Kassian trade?

Sorry, I was just here for the game.
 

I have no interest in getting sucked into the discussion you guys are having in this thread. 

 

[Dazzle]

44 minutes ago, wai_lai416 said:

oh i don't think gillis is a god i mean he did botch a lot of contracts and NTC. but to blame him for a fail prospect pool coz the team was in a period where they were literally all in every year? in sports whether it's NBA NFL NHL MLB what team that's close to winning a championship year in year out doesn't go all in and bankrupt the team literally in terms of prospect? but saying benning is a drafting god coz he's drafting a top 10 pick every year and gillis is pure trash coz he's drafting in the late 20s every year i just find laughable. i mean to be fair it's not like when gillis took over the team from nonis the cupboard was stacked with prospect and he traded them all away to begin with. i honestly don't even know why we are talking about gillis.. benning have been here long enough and ppl keep referring back to it's all gillis fault blah blah blah.. 7 years later it's still gillis fault.. we will probably still be blaming gillis 50 years later when the team sucks again

He did have a failed prospect pool. The proof is in the fact that no significant prospects, outside of Horvat and Hutton, were produced during his entire tenure. This is a span of several years of next to no prospect development.

 

Again, because you seem to be so blind to see this, Benning has done what Gillis could never do - draft players. Of course excuses are made about GIllis not having top 10 picks, but why was he not able to draft a goaltender LIKE Demko during his time? (2nd round pick). What about Hoglander? There is no excuse for the lack of depth that Gillis left behind.

 

Unlike you, most of us see the consequences of such poor drafting and development. Over time, this has huge implications. But again, you've proven me right that you ignore evidence that runs contrary to what you want to see.

[Dazzle]

2 hours ago, VancouverHabitant said:

If you can't beat someone else for the spot then you don't deserve it.  

 

Hoglander had no issues beating other guys out for a spot and he deserved it.  The same will be true for any young guys coming in.  

 

Yanni Gourde played 6 seasons in the AHL.  Don't think he was pouting that he didn't have a spot handed to him. 

Anthony Cirelli played 3 different seasons in the AHL. 

Mathieu Joseph played the entire year two years ago with Tampa only to be sent back to the AHL last year for one third of the season.  

 

 

All of them were Lightning picks, and not first rounders too. I'm wondering how and why Gillis could not draft or develop anything throughout this time.

[SID.IS.SID.ME.IS.ME]

27 minutes ago, Dazzle said:

All of them were Lightning picks, and not first rounders too. I'm wondering how and why Gillis could not draft or develop anything throughout this time.

There’s really not much mystery on that.

 

It’s not that Gillis was bad at drafting, per se, but more that he inherited a crappy amateur scouting department, and he waited too long to make the necessary changes to that staff. He’s gone on record saying that it was one of the biggest regrets of his tenure.

 

In his defence, amateur scouting wasn’t exactly a personal strength of his, going in, and he likely deferred to the guys with more experience, at least initially. Also, as much as Gillis was a prick (he’s less so now IMO), he’s also a very loyal guy, so he likely gave his scouts more time than they deserved, when he probably should have ruthlessly gone scorched earth on that entire staff, or at the very least, done a major shuffle early on, simply based on annual performance reviews, and the multiyear drafting record, going back into previous regimes.

 

Same could be said on the development side, although I’m more forgiving on that aspect, as the Gillis regime saw the team lose the Manitoba Moose (which was a fine AHL setup that developed a major portion of the core back then), and have to go with a partnership with Chicago (and independent AHL team that was more interested in winning and their gate receipts, rather than developing players for the Canucks).
 

Credit goes to Gillis for finding a new affiliate at Utica, and laying the groundwork for a return to a pretty solid farm development system that Benning enjoyed with the Comets.

 

But the drafting and scouting changes were too little and too late. You could see the improvements, both in process and results, in the later drafts under Gillis, and the development of young players, but it wasn’t nearly enough to save him, and certainly wasn’t enough to make up for the earlier mistakes.

 

Benning, to his credit, expanded on the work Gillis started, and built up amateur scouting to the point where it’s legitimately a strength for this club. There’s still plenty of room for improvement, but compared to where things were, Benning’s drafting has looked very good (I’d still argue it’s still merely middling to fair, but compared to being arguably the worst in the league for many years, the Benning drafts have looked “God level”).

[kanucks25]

Good.

 

I don't want him to be.

 

For multiple reasons.

[knucklehead91]

6 hours ago, DSVII said:

He kept the core together and brought in support that made it an elite team for a brief window and got within a game of winning us our first cup (twice.) you can't discount that.

 

So I will first start by saying that Mike Gillis, no doubt is probably one of the most influential GM's when it comes to thinking outside the box and maximizing players performance on a nightly basis by bringing in sleep doctors etc. He had a lot of forward thinking, especially for a team like Vancouver.... The only team in the league, who has to fly to each and every game. He was creative in finding ways to reduce the travel demands on players bodies and minds. I will give him 100% credit for the way he treated UFA's and enticed them to sign, the helicopter tours around town, fancy dinners and stuff like that would be a very enticing reason to sign with Vancouver, you feel valued. They show that they really want you. 

6 hours ago, DSVII said:

He left behind a team with enough pieces to be a 100pt team that could have pivoted to a retool or rebuild depending on how mgmt approached it

- Our MVP Goalie (Marky)

- The top two pairing D for Benning's teams for the majority of his regime prior to drafting Hughes he still hasn't fully replaced (Edler-Tanev)

- Our current Captain

- A tradeable coveted 2C in Kesler

- Quality Depth players in Burrows/Hansen/Bieksa/Hamhuis/Garrison/Higgins

- Marky was nowhere near proven and took several years to finally develop into the goalie he was projected to be. It took Marky til he was 28-29 to finally prove to people he was an NHL starter. Remember not too long ago when Marky and Nilsson battled for the net and either one of them was letting in the first shot of the game on a nightly basis..... and goals from the worst angle that not even beer league goalies would let in..... Marky was nothing to write home about at the time of Gillis's departure, we actually brought Ryan Miller in to fix the issue. 

 

- Benning may not have replaced Edler or Tanev yet..... Dmen typically take a few years to develop into a #1. Look at Victor Hedman for example, he was looking like a potential bust for a few years. He just seemed like he wasnt going to figure it out.... Next thing you know hes a Conn Smythe winner, Norris winner.... It takes time to draft a dman and develop them into a stud. Is that entirely on Benning? No, not entirely. He tried by drafting OJ, unfortunately back issues early in OJ's career were an issue. Why is it on Benning to replace aging pieces late in their career and not on previous management's list of failures to watch out for the future and slowly integrate the next wave of Canuck prospects? Benning has found solutions to the forwards and to goaltending long term. He's landed some pretty potent Dmen in the draft so far and is only missing a shut down dman to complete the core. Tryamkin maybe could have been the solution, but we'll never get the full story as to why he chose the KHL twice now over the NHL. 

- Our current Captain, my favourite player.... was a workhorse in his debut year, but had a lot to learn and a lot to work on... His skating in particular was his biggest issue. However the following season his skating became one of his strongest qualities, next to his work ethic. I swear to you, when Horvat showed up to camp the next season and his skating incredibly powerful and each stride was so noticeable, I turned to my brother and said "Horvat will be the next captain"

I swear on all things Canucks I told my brother Horvat was the next guy to wear the 'C' His work ethic and leadership was evident from his rookie season. He proved it by working on the areas he was weak in and turned it into a weapon. His performance against STL last year was giving me goose bumps. But Horvat is only 1 guy... and the only real NHL guy that Gillis left behind from his drafting. 

- Kesler was coveted.... But was he all that tradable? He had a NMC and an attitude issue to go along with it. That doesn't make him a) appealing for a team to take on a guy who has an attitude issue and b) has a NMC, he dictates where he goes and what that team has to offer. Benning may have very well received much much better offers from 28 other teams. Problem is Kesler had his sights on only 1 team. There is the rumour that Benning had a deal worked out with Chicago, but Kesler said F U and the deal was dead in the water. The question is, if Benning had full control over Kesler's destination, what would that Chicago return have looked like? We may have got a game changing piece in return.

- Burrows, Higgins, Hansen, Bieksa, Hamhuis, Garrison may have all been quality depth guys. The issue was there were a few NTC/M-NTC's to go along with those depth guys.. And by a few, I mean all of them had NTC/M-NTCs...Higgins was 31 and Burrows was 33, along with pretty much the rest of the core for Vancouver, they were for the most part over 30 when Benning took over. They would be great depth guys, if there was youth ahead of them. However they were depth guys for star players that were the same age as them. Their cap hits, for the point at where they were in their careers was a little rich. But by all means, they deserved their pay, it's just hard to move a 33 year old 4.5mil cap hit when the cap is 69mil.

6 hours ago, DSVII said:

Nothing in terms of prospects, that is Gillis' biggest failure, but a rebuild was never his mandate, it was to always compete. So I wouldn't say it's totally fair to pin that on him he was in the middle of restructuring the drafting department for a rebuild when he got canned. So we will never know.

 

Burke and Nonis get credit for drafting the core for sure, but Gillis was the one who signed them to team friendly deals and got them to buy into his philosophy and plan. Benning is approaching this stage with Petey and Hughes. As we saw with Dubas in Toronto, inheriting players and assembling them into a team that can perform under cap isn't easy, especially for a rookie GM, i think in comparison Gillis did alright here.

 

That wasn't his mandate. It was to win a cup with the team in its prime. You sacrifice your futures to improve for that window. Just like how you're arguing it's unfair to judge Benning by the standards of a rebuild for the 2014-17 period, you're applying that standard to Gillis when he had a cup contending team that as expected to trade futures away. If anything i'm shocked we kept our 2011 pick rather than trade it for immediate help. 

- A rebuild was not his mandate, no. Yes his job was to compete, but if your only job is to compete, you need to extend that window of competition to increase your chances of winning the cup. He failed completely at drafting and extending the window of contending. Pittsburgh, Chicago, Boston, Washington, Tampa.. all teams that have won a cup and kept their window extended, part of that is yes they have players like Ovi, Sid, Gino, Kane, Toews, Stamkos, Hedman, all drafted near the top. But they also found gems in Rust, Guentzel, Kucherov, Palat, Point, Cirelli, Cernak, Kuznetsov, Saad, Shaw either very late in the 1st round or outside of the first round that helped propel them to the top and ultimately played key roles in each of those teams Cup wins. Do you think if Canucks nation were to give Gillis 5 years to rebuild, completely wipe the slate clean and ignore the previous 6, with all his failed drafting, NMC and NTCs, poor asset management, that the Canucks would look as promising as they do today? The future is incredibly bright ahead. I feel like we would either end up like Edmonton, endlessly drafting in the top for years before getting lucky... but even then they are still miles away from contending. Or we'd end up like Buffalo.... a never ending rebuild. 

- I agree, Gillis did infact get those team friendly discounts and got the core to buy into the plan, but it came at the cost of NMC and NTC's. So when a change needed to happen, we'd have to ask so and so to waive their NMC or NTC and tell them, sorry you are no longer part of the plan, the philosophy has changed and the NTC or NMC that we gave you, we have changed our mind. Makes for an awkward conversation and creates animosity/tension wouldn't you agree?

- I wouldnt say Benning is entering the same stage as Dubas and "inheriting" players. Dubas and Deadmonton may be cursed by those contracts for Tavares, Matthews, Marner, McDavid and Draisaitl's next deal.... They have upwards of 40% of the cap spent on just a few players. Both teams took an early exit from the playoffs, one a little quicker than the other.. Toronto couldnt close out a 3-1 series lead..... AGAIN.... I think they are in big trouble in the next few years and especially now that the cap is expected to remain flat for the next 3-4 years. McDavid, Draisaitl, Matthews, Marner, Tavares are going to start pricing their teammates out of town. I'd rather have contracts without NTCs or NMC's because they can be moved anywhere and you can get the exact deal YOU want as a GM. Not just the only deal that is available.

-GIllis's mandate and the writing on the walls was "this is the year" and he did infact do all it took to try and secure the first cup in franchise history. Problem is he put too much focus on "this year" rather than preparing for the possibility of next year or the year after. He put all his eggs in one basket and by 2013 we were out of the talk of contending teams. I would be p!$$ed if GIllis DIDNT do anything to try and secure a cup, it almost worked out.... And in the very same breath, I'm p!$$ed that he never thought about keeping the window open. Its a tough line to walk, going all in and also staying competitive, or just going all in and getting it done. Had it not been for injuries, we wouldnt even give a flying f*** about how the Canucks have not won the last 9 years. They would have won it in 2010-11 if it wasnt for the amount of injuries to the team. its too bad. But heres to the new wave of Canucks!!!

 

 

6 hours ago, DSVII said:

Chris Tanev and Markstrom I think was Gillis' best acquisitions outside of Horvat. 

 

He also had a 100 pt team to start his time here. I can't stress this enough. Benning didn't start with nothing. The cupboards were bare yes, and the drafting sucked historically (i'll show that later) but the team roster itself was an asset. (Sedins aside, no one was moving them)

 

I attributed it to the career trajectory of the Sedins, as amazing as they were, they peaked extremely late and had a very brief window. But I don't hold it against them.

 

- Tanev was indeed a great find in the Gillis era... Markstrom came through in a long roundabout way.... But it took a very long time for the Marky acquisition to start paying dividends

- Benning didn't start with a 100 point team... He turned them into a 100pt team. 

2013-14	Vancouver Canucks	NHL	Pacific	82	36	35	0	4	7	83	0.506	196	223	1115	19771	John Tortorella	Out of Playoffs
2014-15	Vancouver Canucks	NHL	Pacific	82	48	29	0	3	2	101	0.616	242	222		18711	Willie Desjardins	Lost in round 1

 

This is what Benning "inherited"

	Regular Season						Playoffs					Vitals
#	Player Name	Pos.	GP	G	A	Pts	PIM	+/-	GP	G	A	Pts	PIM	Birthplace	Age
	Totals			191	322	513	1115
33	Henrik Sedin	C	70	11	39	50	42	3	--	--	--	--	--	Sweden: Ornskoldsvik	32
22	Daniel Sedin	L	73	16	31	47	38	0	--	--	--	--	--	Sweden: Ornskoldsvik	32
17	Ryan Kesler	C	77	25	18	43	81	-15	--	--	--	--	--	MI: Livonia	29
20	Chris Higgins	L	78	17	22	39	30	-14	--	--	--	--	--	NY: Smithtown	30
5	Jason Garrison	D	81	7	26	33	57	-5	--	--	--	--	--	BC: White Rock	28
9	Zack Kassian	R	73	14	15	29	124	-4	--	--	--	--	--	ONT: Windsor	22
25	Mike Santorelli	C	49	10	18	28	6	9	--	--	--	--	--	BC: Vancouver	27
3	Kevin Bieksa	D	76	4	20	24	104	-8	--	--	--	--	--	ONT: Grimsby	32
15	Brad Richardson	R	73	11	12	23	39	1	--	--	--	--	--	ONT: Belleville	28
23	Alexander Edler	D	63	7	15	22	50	-39	--	--	--	--	--	Sweden: Ostersund	27
2	Dan Hamhuis	D	79	5	17	22	26	13	--	--	--	--	--	BC: Smithers	30
36	Jannik Hansen	R	71	11	9	20	43	-9	--	--	--	--	--	Denmark: Rodovre	27
7	David Booth	L	66	9	10	19	18	1	--	--	--	--	--	MI: Detroit	28
8	Christopher Tanev	D	64	6	11	17	8	12	--	--	--	--	--	ONT: Toronto	23
18	Ryan Stanton	D	64	1	15	16	32	5	--	--	--	--	--	ALTA: St. Albert	24
14	Alexandre Burrows	R	49	5	10	15	71	-9	--	--	--	--	--	PQ: Pincourt	32
32	Dale Weise 1	R	44	3	9	12	42	-1	--	--	--	--	--	MAN: Winnipeg	25
6	Yannick Weber	D	49	6	4	10	16	-7	--	--	--	--	--	Switzerland: Morges	24
29	Tom Sestito	L	77	5	4	9	213	-14	--	--	--	--	--	NY: Rome	25
21	Zac Dalpe	C	55	4	3	7	6	-7	--	--	--	--	--	ONT: Paris	23
27	Shawn Matthias 2	L	18	3	4	7	12	-3	--	--	--	--	--	ONT: Mississauga	25
46	Nicklas Jensen	R	17	3	3	6	10	-1	--	--	--	--	--	Denmark: Herning	20
45	Jordan Schroeder	L	25	3	3	6	2	-7	--	--	--	--	--	MN: Lakeville	22
49	Darren Archibald	R	16	1	2	3	0	1	--	--	--	--	--	ONT: Newmarket	23
24	Raphael Diaz 3	D	6	1	1	2	0	-3	--	--	--	--	--	Switzerland: Baar	27
54	Kellan Lain	L	9	1	0	1	21	1	--	--	--	--	--	ONT: Oakville	24
26	Frankie Corrado	D	15	1	0	1	4	-2	--	--	--	--	--	ONT: Toronto	20
13	Jeremy Welsh	F	19	1	0	1	6	-1	--	--	--	--	--	ONT: Bayfield	25
40	Mike Zalewski	L	2	0	1	1	0	2	--	--	--	--	--	NY: New Hartford	21
30	Joacim Eriksson	G	1	0	0	0	0	0	--	--	--	--	--	Sweden: Gavle	23
42	Benn Ferriero	R	2	0	0	0	0	0	--	--	--	--	--	MA: Essex	26
44	Pascal Pelletier	C	3	0	0	0	0	0	--	--	--	--	--	NFLD: Labrador City	30
47	Yann Sauve	D	3	0	0	0	0	-2	--	--	--	--	--	PQ: Montreal	23
35	Jacob Markstrom 2	G	4	0	0	0	0	0	--	--	--	--	--	Sweden: Gavle	23
41	Andrew Alberts	D	10	0	0	0	0	1	--	--	--	--	--	MN: Eden Prairie	32
31	Eddie Lack	G	41	0	0	0	0	0	--	--	--	--	--	Sweden: Norrtalje	25
1	Roberto Luongo 4	G	42	0	0	0	0	0	--	--	--	--	--	PQ: Montreal	34
	Bench		82	0	0	0	14	0	--	--	--	--	--

 

 

This is what Benning turned that "inheritance" into, over night. 

Regular Season						Playoffs					Vitals
#	Player Name	Pos.	GP	G	A	Pts	PIM	+/-	GP	G	A	Pts	PIM	Birthplace	Age
	Totals			236	406	642	860
22	Daniel Sedin	L	82	20	56	76	18	5	6	2	2	4	0	Sweden: Ornskoldsvik	33
33	Henrik Sedin	C	82	18	55	73	22	11	6	1	3	4	2	Sweden: Ornskoldsvik	33
17	Radim Vrbata	R	79	31	32	63	20	6	6	2	2	4	0	Czech Rep.: Mlada Boleslav	33
13	Nick Bonino	C	75	15	24	39	22	7	6	1	2	3	4	CT: Hartford	26
20	Chris Higgins	L	77	12	24	36	16	8	6	1	1	2	2	NY: Smithtown	31
14	Alexandre Burrows	R	70	18	15	33	68	0	3	0	2	2	21	PQ: Pincourt	33
36	Jannik Hansen	R	81	16	17	33	27	-6	6	2	2	4	0	Denmark: Rodovre	28
23	Alexander Edler	D	74	8	23	31	54	13	6	0	3	3	4	Sweden: Ostersund	28
27	Shawn Matthias	L	78	18	9	27	16	-3	6	1	1	2	10	ONT: Mississauga	26
53	Bo Horvat	C	68	13	12	25	16	-8	6	1	3	4	2	ONT: London	19
51	Derek Dorsett	R	79	7	18	25	175	4	6	0	0	0	20	SASK: Kindersley	27
7	Linden Vey	R	75	10	14	24	18	-3	1	0	0	0	0	SASK: Wakaw	23
2	Dan Hamhuis	D	59	1	22	23	44	0	6	0	1	1	16	BC: Smithers	31
6	Yannick Weber	D	65	11	10	21	30	4	6	0	0	0	12	Switzerland: Morges	25
15	Brad Richardson	R	45	8	13	21	34	0	5	0	0	0	15	ONT: Belleville	29
8	Christopher Tanev	D	70	2	18	20	12	8	6	0	3	3	0	ONT: Toronto	24
9	Zack Kassian	R	42	10	6	16	81	-5	--	--	--	--	--	ONT: Windsor	23
3	Kevin Bieksa	D	60	4	10	14	77	0	6	0	0	0	9	ONT: Grimsby	33
41	Ronalds Kenins	L	30	4	8	12	8	-2	5	1	1	2	4	Latvia: Riga	23
18	Ryan Stanton	D	54	3	8	11	35	9	--	--	--	--	--	ALTA: St. Albert	25
5	Luca Sbisa	D	76	3	8	11	46	-8	6	1	1	2	7	Italy: Ozieri	24
42 47	Sven Baertschi 1	L	3	2	0	2	4	0	2	0	0	0	0	Switzerland: Bern	21
44	Adam Clendening 2	D	17	0	2	2	8	1	--	--	--	--	--	NY: Niagara Falls	21
3 55	Alex Biega	D	7	1	0	1	0	-2	--	--	--	--	--	PQ: Montreal	26
26	Frankie Corrado	D	10	1	0	1	0	-7	--	--	--	--	--	ONT: Toronto	21
29	Tom Sestito	L	3	0	1	1	7	1	--	--	--	--	--	NY: Rome	26
21	Brandon McMillan 3	L	8	0	1	1	0	-1	2	1	0	1	4	BC: Richmond	24
24 39	Brandon DeFazio	L	2	0	0	0	0	0	--	--	--	--	--	ONT: Oakville	25
35	Jacob Markstrom	G	3	0	0	0	0	0	--	--	--	--	--	Sweden: Gavle	24
46	Nicklas Jensen	R	5	0	0	0	0	-1	--	--	--	--	--	Denmark: Herning	21
31	Eddie Lack	G	41	0	0	0	2	0	4	0	0	0	0	Sweden: Norrtalje	26
30	Ryan Miller	G	45	0	0	0	0	0	3	0	0	0	0	MI: East Lansing	34

 

Vancouver went from 25th in Gillis's last season, to 8th in Bennings 1st season. He managed to add 45 goals to the team. The Sedins saw a 50% point increase, Burrows scored 18 goals and had more goals in 2014-15 than he did points in 2013-14. They also finished in the top 10 in scoring that season. I'd say Benning didnt inherit anything from Gillis but headaches, he inherited Burke and Nonis's drafting 11-15 years prior. Benning also did a lot of work to change that roster in a short manner. You look at the 2013-14 roster.... It made me cringe... Then look at the 2014-15 roster, definitely was easier to look at.  

 

When I speak of Benning not inheriting anything, he inherited nothing that benefitted the future, outside of Horvat. He had zero prospects to work with, zero package deals that he could offer to any team in the league that would see it as a fair deal. Sure he "inheritted" the Sedins, Kesler, Burrows, Bieksa and whomever else you want to name from the 2010-11 run.... But the issue with that was, they were all past their "best before date". So is that really an inheritance? Or is that more like a "oh yea, we left this behind for you" How is Benning to work off of guys that are no longer in their prime and are in the downward stage of their career. That is kinda like inheriting nothing, because all the good stuff (good years) are gone. 

 

- The Sedins, they "peaked" later, but they were actually quite effective players throughout their entire careers. It took them a couple years to get their feet on the ground and get running..........Just like it does normally with draft picks, like the ones GIllis never found. So he really did leave nothing behind for Benning and left Benning in a "player development" deficit. Benning had to get a few years of drafting in to start building up the core, and then develop them and have them take over. Luckily it went a lot quicker and each player he drafted was able to make an impact instantly for almost every single one of them. Could you imagine if all of Bennings picks had to add a couple years onto their development before they started producing in the NHL? Imagine Brock Boeser being drafted in 2015 and then not making an impact til 2018. Petey getting drafted in 2017 and not making an impact til 2020, Hughes in 2018 and not becoming an NHLer til 2021..... How miserable would fans be today if our draft picks actually needed time to become NHLers?

 

6 hours ago, DSVII said:

The issue here was one of Ownership/management learned the wrong lessons from 2011 and decided to change the team identity to something that did not work, size and grit. If we had stuck to our guns like Tampa did after their sweep in 2019 (and Duncan Keith's elbow hit somewhere else....), potentially we could have extended that window just a little bit longer. 

I think the issue with Ownership, which of course is expected in every NHL market, is they demand playoff revenue. They want that more than anything and it takes a lot of convincing to get an owner to agree to buyouts, agree to blowing it up and agree to a 3, 4, 5 or 6 painful years of rebuilding. Which is what the issue was when Benning got here, it was an Ownership influenced team. Moves were made and influenced by Ownership. We just missed the playoffs in 2013-14, but we made the playoffs the previous years. In Ownership's eyes, they see it as a simple little fix and we'll be back to the playoffs in no time. Benning came in and changed the roster quite a bit and what do you know, the Aquilini's got what they wanted and so did the fans. We finished 8th over, but got bounced in the 1st round. Okay, that sucked, but we had a good year, we should be able to do it again. 2015-16, we missed the playoffs..... Okay wtf  happened... Hey Loui Eriksson just put up 30 goals and had chemistry with the Sedins on international teams, they also feel like he'd be a good fit for them. Lets go get him, here's the bank account info, go get the guy and lock him up. 2016-17 Eriksson misses 30 games in his first season (Damn that Vancouver tap water). Okay wtf now thats 2 years in a row, LE missed nearly half a season, Sutter missed a bunch of time, okay injuries were a problem, next season will be a different story...........NOT... 2017-18 was the straw that broke the camels back. I believe the Sedins could have signed another 2-3 year deal, but I believe they saw the writing on the walls for Vancouver and realized, nothing is going to get better the longer they keep trying to slap a team together. Its just going to be more pain and misery, so lets accept that and retire. Lets retire on our terms and not drag this rebuild out any longer. The Sedins still had pretty damn good numbers considering they were 37 and pretty much still the 2 goto guys. They still carried that team at the end of their career.

- As for extending the window.... better drafting.

 

 

6 hours ago, DSVII said:

With 2013 and how Gillis said he wanted to get back to the game that made the team successful (speed and skill) and was immediately fired for that, my opinion is Aquilini was the one who blinked when he stared into that abyss of the Game 7 loss. 

 

Tanev, Hamhuis, Samuelsson, Higgins, LaPierre, Ehrhoff. You asked what Gillis did exactly, he put together a good team with great support pieces. What more can you ask for? He can't do this and have the expectation of leaving behind an elite prospect pool. And correct, Gillis didn't take a basement team, he took an underperforming playoff team and gave them a shot at a cup. 

 

Ballard and Oreskovich is hindsight. We needed a replacement for Mitchell (oh what could have been....) i won't deny scouting sucked back then for us but at the time of the trade, people were on board with the value. 

 

This isn't your point haha but I will apply that kind of thinking to Benning's first season, why is 2014/15 heralded by some as a huge turnaround success story when Gillis made playoffs 5/6 years before that? 2014 wasn't a basement team either. My point. Let's not lose perspective on either scenario here. 

- 2013 Gilis may have been open and honest about what he wanted to do or what needed to be done, but how is he going to do that without draft picks, prospects and a bunch of aging players, NMC's and NTCs to get through? He cant. He put himself in that position and it would have taken a long time to get out and he would have been canned well before he ever got himself out of that hole. 

 

- Gillis didnt put that team together, it was already assembled. He finalized it. He added a couple pieces through trade and free agency. Which.... When you are a contending team, it is quite easy to attract good players. Yes I give credit to MG for going over the top and out of his way to attract players. But realistically the part he had to play in it, was the easiest. He didnt have to do the drafting, the developing, the trials and tribulations.... He took the '99 Burke draft floor magic, the Nonis block buster Luongo trade and threw in a pinch of UFA and a dash of trades. 

- Like I've said a few times.... Chicago, Boston, Pittsburgh, Washington, Tampa all teams that won it and still drafted quite well while doing it.... (Boston not so much though, but they have had 3 cracks at a cup) You can't excuse MG for not drafting well because the team was winning. Many other teams in the league are doing it right now and have been for awhile. Gillis just never showed up to the table.

 

 - Yea the Ballard trade was 100% hindsight, I was moreso just reminding some forum trolls here of some of the hindsight in the past.... They call for Bennings head for some of his hindsight moves like LE or JV blah blah blah... but it happens to every GM.

-2014/15... I Pointed that out above... 25th to 8th overnight, 50% point increase for the Sedins, Burrows more than doubled his points....

- Gillis made the playoffs for 5/6 years prior.... But he kept the same losing recipe, he never improved on it. Benning took that same aged core with another year on the odometer and made changes that paid off. Thats why Benning deserves full credit for his work done. He found good fits to go along with the Sedins. Vrbata complimented them very well, Burrows fit in down the lineup and rejuvenated his career for a brief moment. 

 

Anywho, thank god the playoffs are over, Im excited for the offseason!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Convincing John]

6 hours ago, Dazzle said:

All of them were Lightning picks, and not first rounders too. I'm wondering how and why Gillis could not draft or develop anything throughout this time.

You desperately need to move on from Gillis. It was a different league, under different circumstances. If you all say ownership is breathing down Benning’s back to spend the cap and have success than imagine what that pressure was like for him with an actual Stanley cup contender. He had to throw all his chips in to win. Scouting, the value of draft picks, etc. Both GM’s suck hard. Gillis did turn a mediocre team into the best in the league but failed to maintain a replenishing stock. 

[Dazzle]

2 hours ago, Convincing John said:

You desperately need to move on from Gillis. It was a different league, under different circumstances. If you all say ownership is breathing down Benning’s back to spend the cap and have success than imagine what that pressure was like for him with an actual Stanley cup contender. He had to throw all his chips in to win. Scouting, the value of draft picks, etc. Both GM’s suck hard. Gillis did turn a mediocre team into the best in the league but failed to maintain a replenishing stock. 

This is a super debatable point, considering that Gillis inherited most of his pieces, which is what was said by @knucklehead91 in his long, detailed posts.
Furthermore, to disregard things as "it was 7 years ago" is a logical fallacy because it ignores what he did or didn't do, which would've impacted the future events.

 

Imagine you spending all your money using your credit card, except you have no means of paying it back immediately. 7 years later, you are still having to pay it back because of interest. If you can imagine this situation, you'll realize that "7 years ago" can't be ignored. What Gillis did or didn't do influenced the incoming GM. If Gillis had put Canucks in a better spot, maybe the new GM wouldn't have to "retool on the fly" or get Eriksson.

 

Imagine having money coming in normally, and getting paid extra because you had a profitable side business. It would certainly help pay off credit debt, yes? The same thing applies. Poor decisions 7 years ago will impact what happens later. Therefore, no one should say "it was 7 years ago. Time to stop blaming Gillis".

Edited July 8, 2021 by Dazzle

[Dazzle]

8 hours ago, SID.IS.SID.ME.IS.ME said:

There’s really not much mystery on that.

 

It’s not that Gillis was bad at drafting, per se, but more that he inherited a crappy amateur scouting department, and he waited too long to make the necessary changes to that staff. He’s gone on record saying that it was one of the biggest regrets of his tenure.

 

In his defence, amateur scouting wasn’t exactly a personal strength of his, going in, and he likely deferred to the guys with more experience, at least initially. Also, as much as Gillis was a prick (he’s less so now IMO), he’s also a very loyal guy, so he likely gave his scouts more time than they deserved, when he probably should have ruthlessly gone scorched earth on that entire staff, or at the very least, done a major shuffle early on, simply based on annual performance reviews, and the multiyear drafting record, going back into previous regimes.

 

Same could be said on the development side, although I’m more forgiving on that aspect, as the Gillis regime saw the team lose the Manitoba Moose (which was a fine AHL setup that developed a major portion of the core back then), and have to go with a partnership with Chicago (and independent AHL team that was more interested in winning and their gate receipts, rather than developing players for the Canucks).
 

Credit goes to Gillis for finding a new affiliate at Utica, and laying the groundwork for a return to a pretty solid farm development system that Benning enjoyed with the Comets.

 

But the drafting and scouting changes were too little and too late. You could see the improvements, both in process and results, in the later drafts under Gillis, and the development of young players, but it wasn’t nearly enough to save him, and certainly wasn’t enough to make up for the earlier mistakes.

 

Benning, to his credit, expanded on the work Gillis started, and built up amateur scouting to the point where it’s legitimately a strength for this club. There’s still plenty of room for improvement, but compared to where things were, Benning’s drafting has looked very good (I’d still argue it’s still merely middling to fair, but compared to being arguably the worst in the league for many years, the Benning drafts have looked “God level”).

You've made really fair points that takes into account both perspectives of Gillis and Benning. I am aware that Gillis went on record to say he regretted not boosting the scouting/development part, so at least there's that. Gillis, as you said, was responsible for laying the groundwork for an AHL team, because the Chicago Wolves certainly was a poor set up.

Edited July 8, 2021 by Dazzle

[RU SERIOUS]

On 7/6/2021 at 3:50 PM, lmm said:

What does amaze me is teh extent some of you "TRUE FANS" will go to make excuses for the poor job El Jimmer has done

what does not amaze me is that this team still sucks, what with some many of you making one excuse after another, why should anyone be bothered to actually make the team better.

 

Here is one of those teams you said Jimmer assembled in order to take another run at the Cup

btw not the first and not the last of the Sedin's Last Stand

 

https://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/leagues/seasons/teams/0000392017.html

 

is that a Cup contender in your eyes?

 

The Sedins were done after 2012, that is six years when they did nothing but pad their personal stats and teach the new core how to lose gracefully

 

2020-21 is not a normal year, but it shows hwich GMs are ready to take a bad situation and win dispite the troubles other GMs (and fanbases , appearently) have negotiating the "NOT NORMAL" year.

2018 was not a normal year 

2013 was not normal

2006 was not normal

1995 was not normal

1968 was not normal

the war years were not normal

Teams won cups during those "not normal" years

 but you and many other "TRue Fans" are willing to wait for another "normal" year in hopes Normal means Canuckle Magic

 

Go play in Vancouver they said, where the media is harsh, but the fans will fall over themselves to excuse poor performance

Your honesty will get you somewhere in life !

Great Post !

[RU SERIOUS]

9 hours ago, SID.IS.SID.ME.IS.ME said:

Sorry, I was just here for the game.
 

I have no interest in getting sucked into the discussion you guys are having in this thread. 

 

You don't know what you're missing !

[kanucks25]

8 hours ago, knucklehead91 said:

When I speak of Benning not inheriting anything, he inherited nothing that benefitted the future, outside of Horvat.

So the top D pair Benning has had for 90% of his tenure here did not benefit the future when he took the job? Or do the first 6 years not count?

 

You'd think, especially for a GM who obviously prioritizes quality veterans, Tanev and Edler have been two of the most important players under Benning.

 

Seemed as though they were not only vital on the ice, but also quality leaders especially for a guy like Hughes.

 

Add in Markstrom and you have three inherited "vets" that kept this dumpster fire from becoming a full blown forest wild fire.

 

I only scrolled through your post, 'cause nobody has time to read all that, but when I see completely asinine lines like the one I just quoted I'm glad I didn't waste my time.

Edited July 8, 2021 by kanucks25

[kanucks25]

17 hours ago, Dazzle said:

Oh and the Ballard trade was awful. Just awful. Anyone who justifies that trade is clearly out to lunch @kanucks25 is one such poster.

Would love to see a quote for this.

 

Otherwise this is just more verbal diarrhea. 

[Convincing John]

1 hour ago, Dazzle said:

This is a super debatable point, considering that Gillis inherited most of his pieces, which is what was said by @knucklehead91 in his long, detailed posts.
Furthermore, to disregard things as "it was 7 years ago" is a logical fallacy because it ignores what he did or didn't do, which would've impacted the future events.

 

Imagine you spending all your money using your credit card, except you have no means of paying it back immediately. 7 years later, you are still having to pay it back because of interest. If you can imagine this situation, you'll realize that "7 years ago" can't be ignored. What Gillis did or didn't do influenced the incoming GM. If Gillis had put Canucks in a better spot, maybe the new GM wouldn't have to "retool on the fly" or get Eriksson.

 

Imagine having money coming in normally, and getting paid extra because you had a profitable side business. It would certainly help pay off credit debt, yes? The same thing applies. Poor decisions 7 years ago will impact what happens later. Therefore, no one should say "it was 7 years ago. Time to stop blaming Gillis".

In years 1-4 sure. He definitely F’d the team but Dazzle, players he drafted in his first year are in their mid 20’s. all of Gillis is nearly flushed out. One can even argue that Horvat almost makes whatever lingering effects neutral. 
 

i will never go back and criticize his misses at the draft table either. I loved JV and OJ in Jr. GM’s miss on draft picks, that’s just reality. There isn’t a single player that man has drafted that I’ve complained about. Why? Cause I trust him and he has proven himself in this area over and over. 
 

I will go back on him rolling the dice and throwing draft picks like they were covered in AIDS. It’s an absolute tragedy that he didn’t go all in years 1-4 instead of blowing picks for in a nothing time of transition. 
 

I clearly remember him explaining how he needed to fill this age gap and how picks in the later rounds take 5 years before they’re ready for the NHL. Well that 5 years is now. We don’t have the picks or the Linden Vey’s to show for. With his drafting ability, that man should be consistently filling his pockets with picks, not emptying them for instant gratification. 

[HKSR]

8 hours ago, knucklehead91 said:

- Benning didn't start with a 100 point team... He turned them into a 100pt team. 

2013-14	Vancouver Canucks	NHL	Pacific	82	36	35	0	4	7	83	0.506	196	223	1115	19771	John Tortorella	Out of Playoffs
2014-15	Vancouver Canucks	NHL	Pacific	82	48	29	0	3	2	101	0.616	242	222		18711	Willie Desjardins	Lost in round 1

 

This is what Benning "inherited"

	Regular Season						Playoffs					Vitals
#	Player Name	Pos.	GP	G	A	Pts	PIM	+/-	GP	G	A	Pts	PIM	Birthplace	Age
	Totals			191	322	513	1115
33	Henrik Sedin	C	70	11	39	50	42	3	--	--	--	--	--	Sweden: Ornskoldsvik	32
22	Daniel Sedin	L	73	16	31	47	38	0	--	--	--	--	--	Sweden: Ornskoldsvik	32
17	Ryan Kesler	C	77	25	18	43	81	-15	--	--	--	--	--	MI: Livonia	29
20	Chris Higgins	L	78	17	22	39	30	-14	--	--	--	--	--	NY: Smithtown	30
5	Jason Garrison	D	81	7	26	33	57	-5	--	--	--	--	--	BC: White Rock	28
9	Zack Kassian	R	73	14	15	29	124	-4	--	--	--	--	--	ONT: Windsor	22
25	Mike Santorelli	C	49	10	18	28	6	9	--	--	--	--	--	BC: Vancouver	27
3	Kevin Bieksa	D	76	4	20	24	104	-8	--	--	--	--	--	ONT: Grimsby	32
15	Brad Richardson	R	73	11	12	23	39	1	--	--	--	--	--	ONT: Belleville	28
23	Alexander Edler	D	63	7	15	22	50	-39	--	--	--	--	--	Sweden: Ostersund	27
2	Dan Hamhuis	D	79	5	17	22	26	13	--	--	--	--	--	BC: Smithers	30
36	Jannik Hansen	R	71	11	9	20	43	-9	--	--	--	--	--	Denmark: Rodovre	27
7	David Booth	L	66	9	10	19	18	1	--	--	--	--	--	MI: Detroit	28
8	Christopher Tanev	D	64	6	11	17	8	12	--	--	--	--	--	ONT: Toronto	23
18	Ryan Stanton	D	64	1	15	16	32	5	--	--	--	--	--	ALTA: St. Albert	24
14	Alexandre Burrows	R	49	5	10	15	71	-9	--	--	--	--	--	PQ: Pincourt	32
32	Dale Weise 1	R	44	3	9	12	42	-1	--	--	--	--	--	MAN: Winnipeg	25
6	Yannick Weber	D	49	6	4	10	16	-7	--	--	--	--	--	Switzerland: Morges	24
29	Tom Sestito	L	77	5	4	9	213	-14	--	--	--	--	--	NY: Rome	25
21	Zac Dalpe	C	55	4	3	7	6	-7	--	--	--	--	--	ONT: Paris	23
27	Shawn Matthias 2	L	18	3	4	7	12	-3	--	--	--	--	--	ONT: Mississauga	25
46	Nicklas Jensen	R	17	3	3	6	10	-1	--	--	--	--	--	Denmark: Herning	20
45	Jordan Schroeder	L	25	3	3	6	2	-7	--	--	--	--	--	MN: Lakeville	22
49	Darren Archibald	R	16	1	2	3	0	1	--	--	--	--	--	ONT: Newmarket	23
24	Raphael Diaz 3	D	6	1	1	2	0	-3	--	--	--	--	--	Switzerland: Baar	27
54	Kellan Lain	L	9	1	0	1	21	1	--	--	--	--	--	ONT: Oakville	24
26	Frankie Corrado	D	15	1	0	1	4	-2	--	--	--	--	--	ONT: Toronto	20
13	Jeremy Welsh	F	19	1	0	1	6	-1	--	--	--	--	--	ONT: Bayfield	25
40	Mike Zalewski	L	2	0	1	1	0	2	--	--	--	--	--	NY: New Hartford	21
30	Joacim Eriksson	G	1	0	0	0	0	0	--	--	--	--	--	Sweden: Gavle	23
42	Benn Ferriero	R	2	0	0	0	0	0	--	--	--	--	--	MA: Essex	26
44	Pascal Pelletier	C	3	0	0	0	0	0	--	--	--	--	--	NFLD: Labrador City	30
47	Yann Sauve	D	3	0	0	0	0	-2	--	--	--	--	--	PQ: Montreal	23
35	Jacob Markstrom 2	G	4	0	0	0	0	0	--	--	--	--	--	Sweden: Gavle	23
41	Andrew Alberts	D	10	0	0	0	0	1	--	--	--	--	--	MN: Eden Prairie	32
31	Eddie Lack	G	41	0	0	0	0	0	--	--	--	--	--	Sweden: Norrtalje	25
1	Roberto Luongo 4	G	42	0	0	0	0	0	--	--	--	--	--	PQ: Montreal	34
	Bench		82	0	0	0	14	0	--	--	--	--	--

 

 

 

Well, what I read from this is that the biggest problem was that guy named "Bench".  82 games played, no goals, no points, and 14 PIM?  What a bum.

[awalk]

50 minutes ago, kanucks25 said:

Would love to see a quote for this.

 

Otherwise this is just more verbal diarrhea. 

It was 11 years ago. No one remembers. If they claim to, it's just weird.