FIRE Jim Benning & Travis Green Thread

[Dazzle]

4 hours ago, N4ZZY said:

Yeah. Didn’t Benning want Cody Glass? 

 

Look at how that would’ve turned out….

 

Another &^@#ing bust. 22 points in his NHL career, while Petey’s got what? 163? 

 

Would’ve been another Jim Benning special. 

 

This is a very bad take. Lots of people on CDC also wanted Cody Glass. He was also one of the players in that middle of the first ten picks.

 

Pettersson was a major win for Benning, regardless of who he was rumoured to pick. Besides, we don't know if any of the rumours are true or not.

[Alflives]

4 hours ago, N4ZZY said:

Yeah. Didn’t Benning want Cody Glass? 

 

Look at how that would’ve turned out….

 

Another &^@#ing bust. 22 points in his NHL career, while Petey’s got what? 163? 

 

Would’ve been another Jim Benning special. 

 

The Vanucks identified Petey as a guy they very much wanted when Inge Hammarstrom first saw him play as a 14 year old.  Then in and around the draft Benning floated the Canucks liked Glass as smoke so he could get assets from Vegas (who picked right after us and wanted Glass) to not take him.  We wanted Petey all along, and Vegas saw through that and didn’t give up the assets Benning was trying to get to stay off Glass.  I guess you, and some media, didn’t see through the smoke.

[IBatch]

2 hours ago, Alflives said:

The Vanucks identified Petey as a guy they very much wanted when Inge Hammarstrom first saw him play as a 14 year old.  Then in and around the draft Benning floated the Canucks liked Glass as smoke so he could get assets from Vegas (who picked right after us and wanted Glass) to not take him.  We wanted Petey all along, and Vegas saw through that and didn’t give up the assets Benning was trying to get to stay off Glass.  I guess you, and some media, didn’t see through the smoke.

JB was on board right away.   The idea he wanted Glass is absolutely and totally false.   Your right 100%.   I've read detailed articles on the entire process.  How EP grew up much like Guy Lafluer did, with limitless ice time and no special trainer or anything, and learned to do what he does on his own.   Guys 100% self-made like Lafluer.   And Delorme was easily convinced.   They purposely limited their flights in to scout him which part of the "smoke and mirrors" as was the deliberate scouting of others like Glass and Valardi.   Teams pay attention to what other teams are looking at.   It tips their hand.   Anyone saying JB a wanted someone else is reading BS or listening to BS.   THN did a front page story about EP his rookie year, and about 8 pages on how he was found and outlined how he was always their pick.   It was solid journalism ...That said i do wonder what would have happened if we won the lottery and picked him over Hirshier or Patrick.   Fanbase would have gone ballistic. 

 

Edit:  And an aside Timrafan and me had to post a lot of things to make it clear it wasn't Delorme who "discovered" EP.   He wasn't in anyone's radar really, a call to the team started the process.   We got crucified a bit for suggesting it wasn't...it just goes to say what some folks believe is true just by reading what others on this site say. Sure JB gave Delorme the credit - which was a great thing to do for his staff and the right thing as well.   EP was 100% only because of our historical ties as far as "discovery" goes.   Otherwise yes, maybe it would have been Glass or Valardi.   Every  team but the NYR and us had EP on their radar in the top ten. 

Edited November 21, 2021 by IBatch

[Ballisticsports.]

8 hours ago, wallstreetamigo said:

Lol he had a record of 18 wins,18 losses, and 4 ties as interim head coach of the Isles.

 

I will check but pretty sure that’s a better winning percentage that Green has as a head coach.

 

Green had won nothing at any level of pro coaching and had exactly 0 wins (or even games coached) on an nhl bench in any capacity before being promoted. At least he proves your theory that promoting losers leads to losing.

 

Shaw as interim coach couldn’t possibly do worse than Green.

With his job as a Canuck

I just posted what Shaw said his job will be here

He said he will be an associate coach, he will be fixing the PP, the PK ,while leaving the goalie to Clarke

Not sure why you want to release TG just to promote Shaw?

Our team has never been worse with him doing what he said his job will be

 

All i stated is, if we are going to change coach, find the right one

What do you think Shaw has done that is so great on the Canucks to be promoted?

We may as well put Fin in 

May as well stick Jim in there and try to motivate his players and watch his demeanor unfold with frustration

Many GM's have had to do that and if he fails, then in the off season you find someone for both jobs

[wallstreetamigo]

4 hours ago, ba;;isticsports said:

With his job as a Canuck

I just posted what Shaw said his job will be here

He said he will be an associate coach, he will be fixing the PP, the PK ,while leaving the goalie to Clarke

Not sure why you want to release TG just to promote Shaw?

Our team has never been worse with him doing what he said his job will be

 

All i stated is, if we are going to change coach, find the right one

What do you think Shaw has done that is so great on the Canucks to be promoted?

We may as well put Fin in 

May as well stick Jim in there and try to motivate his players and watch his demeanor unfold with frustration

Many GM's have had to do that and if he fails, then in the off season you find someone for both jobs

So you say Shaw as an assistant coach has a crappy record with the Canucks but the head coach doesn’t have actual responsibility for that record? The Canucks sucking is a Green issue, not a Shaw one. Kind of like, as we have now seen, the PP was a Green issue not a Newell Brown one.
 

What I ACTUALLY want, as I have stated many times is this:

 

1. Hire a competent, experienced PoHO. Jim Rutherford and Dean Lombardi are two good examples of hockey guys who would instantly inspire confidence in the organization and the players that they take winning seriously.

2. Fire Benning and Weisbrod. PoHO takes over as interim GM and starts the extensive search for the next long term GM while not making any major moves while evaluating the roster. Jeff Gorton and Chris McFarland are good examples of guys to talk to but there are many others. Let the long term GM decide how to retool the roster.

 

3. Fire Green, Baumgartner, King, and any other coach not named Shaw or Clark. Make Shaw interim head coach and hire experienced assistant coaches, maybe even guys out there who are looking for a way back into a head coach job. Be patient and let the new long term GM be the one who evaluates and decides on his coaching staff going forward.

 

I have never said Shaw should immediately be hired as the next head coach. I have said don’t let Benning hire another coach. Unless you think Trent Cull is the answer.

 

Shaw as an interim coach is the best way to not make a rushed decision and truly reset the organizational vision. Shaw would not possibly be worse than Green and that’s the point. It’s pretty clear Green has not implemented much based on input from Shaw considering nothing significant has changed from his entire tenure as coach.

 

Almost sounds like an actual plan though, hey?

Edited November 21, 2021 by wallstreetamigo

[Ballisticsports.]

2 hours ago, wallstreetamigo said:

So you say Shaw as an assistant coach has a crappy record with the Canucks but the head coach doesn’t have actual responsibility for that record? The Canucks sucking is a Green issue, not a Shaw one. Kind of like, as we have now seen, the PP was a Green issue not a Newell Brown one.
 

What I ACTUALLY want, as I have stated many times is this:

 

1. Hire a competent, experienced PoHO. Jim Rutherford and Dean Lombardi are two good examples of hockey guys who would instantly inspire confidence in the organization and the players that they take winning seriously.

2. Fire Benning and Weisbrod. PoHO takes over as interim GM and starts the extensive search for the next long term GM while not making any major moves while evaluating the roster. Jeff Gorton and Chris McFarland are good examples of guys to talk to but there are many others. Let the long term GM decide how to retool the roster.

 

3. Fire Green, Baumgartner, King, and any other coach not named Shaw or Clark. Make Shaw interim head coach and hire experienced assistant coaches, maybe even guys out there who are looking for a way back into a head coach job. Be patient and let the new long term GM be the one who evaluates and decides on his coaching staff going forward.

 

I have never said Shaw should immediately be hired as the next head coach. I have said don’t let Benning hire another coach. Unless you think Trent Cull is the answer.

 

Shaw as an interim coach is the best way to not make a rushed decision and truly reset the organizational vision. Shaw would not possibly be worse than Green and that’s the point. It’s pretty clear Green has not implemented much based on input from Shaw considering nothing significant has changed from his entire tenure as coach.

 

Almost sounds like an actual plan though, hey?

Only that I have seen Clarke as a reason to keep, but i have not seen a reason to keep Shaw if you let Green go

I think Benning and Green will go at the same time, when that time comes and then the GM will pick his coach

 

Change because it cant be worse you say?, then why don't we just staple our 4th line to the PP and have our 1st line kill penalties, because it could actually do no worse either ? If our coach did that would you support it?

 

As i stated i am not supporting or asking for his firing

Just simply going on what Shaw himself stated were to be his responsibilities and even calling himself the associate coach without the title

Shaw said Green was looking for new ideas and voice, so Green was looking for something different than what was happening with Brown

 

Before Shaw came on board, our stars were at least stars , hopefully by now they know what the issue is and it is corrected

Looking at his interim before almost 1/2 his wins were in s.o, the others were mostly 2-1 scores which leads me to think that our stars are not interested in that and why they are struggling

 

Not saying my opinion is the right one, i am just stating my opinion on why I don't want Shaw to be the guy promoted

If you feel the need for me to change my opinion, i am always open to that, but just saying he can't be worse is not the reason for me to change mine

Edited November 21, 2021 by ba;;isticsports

[wallstreetamigo]

1 hour ago, ba;;isticsports said:

Only that I have seen Clarke as a reason to keep, but i have not seen a reason to keep Shaw if you let Green go

I think Benning and Green will go at the same time, when that time comes and then the GM will pick his coach

 

Change because it cant be worse you say?, then why don't we just staple our 4th line to the PP and have our 1st line kill penalties, because it could actually do no worse either ? If our coach did that would you support it?

 

As i stated i am not supporting or asking for his firing

Just simply going on what Shaw himself stated were to be his responsibilities and even calling himself the associate coach without the title

Shaw said Green was looking for new ideas and voice, so Green was looking for something different than what was happening with Brown

 

Before Shaw came on board, our stars were at least stars , hopefully by now they know what the issue is and it is corrected

Looking at his interim before almost 1/2 his wins were in s.o, the others were mostly 2-1 scores which leads me to think that our stars are not interested in that and why they are struggling

 

Not saying my opinion is the right one, i am just stating my opinion on why I don't want Shaw to be the guy promoted

If you feel the need for me to change my opinion, i am always open to that, but just saying he can't be worse is not the reason for me to change mine

You are assigning responsibility to Shaw for what he said his role would be. The head coach is the one who determines how much of that input he is going to accept though. Based on what I have seen combined with the long track record of Shaw elsewhere my belief is Green is not accepting much in terms of advice on changes from Shaw. Not surprising as there are few head coaches in the nhl who are as stubborn as Green.
 

It’s not about him just not being worse though, as I explained. It’s about the organization badly needing a coaching change at this point to restore some hope and structure for the team and a new identity. Being patient about who the next long term coach should be is the best idea. It’s why teams use interim coaches in the first place. To take proper time to evaluate or to even wait for other coaches elsewhere to be fired before making a long term decision.

 

The next coaching hires for HC and AC need to be the right ones or it will lead to another retool or rebuild of the core scenario.

 

When Shaw was an interim head coach, there were no shootouts. Wins, losses, ties. 18-18-4. 

Green uses a 4th liner on the 1st unit PP bud. And a 1st liner on the PK. So it seems he thinks it’s a good idea like you do.

 

 

[wallstreetamigo]

It blows me away how far people here will go to deflect blame off Benning and Green. Now Shaw is apparently the cause of problems that have been here since 5 years before he was lol.

 

Honestly why are people so attached to these two &^@#ing tools anyway?

[Ballisticsports.]

4 minutes ago, wallstreetamigo said:

You are assigning responsibility to Shaw for what he said his role would be. The head coach is the one who determines how much of that input he is going to accept though. Based on what I have seen combined with the long track record of Shaw elsewhere my belief is Green is not accepting much in terms of advice on changes from Shaw. Not surprising as there are few head coaches in the nhl who are as stubborn as Green.
 

It’s not about him just not being worse though, as I explained. It’s about the organization badly needing a coaching change at this point to restore some hope and structure for the team and a new identity. Being patient about who the next long term coach should be is the best idea. It’s why teams use interim coaches in the first place. To take proper time to evaluate or to even wait for other coaches elsewhere to be fired before making a long term decision.

 

The next coaching hires for HC and AC need to be the right ones or it will lead to another retool or rebuild of the core scenario.

 

When Shaw was an interim head coach, there were no shootouts. Wins, losses, ties. 18-18-4. 

Green uses a 4th liner on the 1st unit PP bud. And a 1st liner on the PK. So it seems he thinks it’s a good idea like you do.

 

 

You should read a whole comment and not pretend i said that is what i wanted

I never said it was a good idea to put the 4th line on the PP or the PK on the PP

I ASKED you if that was a good idea using YOUR logic that it couldn't be any worse

 

I am NOT defending Green, but I am NOT blindly supporting Shaw either from what i read and see

If You want to go ahead, No need to get emotional about it

I shared my opinion, unless someone convinces me otherwise It is what it is and done with it

 

BTW

The shootout was implemented in the year of his Interim Coach duty in 2005/06

You are the one selling Shaw because he can do no worse

[granpappy]

just to summarize: bottom line guys still ineffective and now the top line guys who were amongst the best in the league a few years ago are now also ineffective = worst start 

[wallstreetamigo]

1 hour ago, ba;;isticsports said:

You should read a whole comment and not pretend i said that is what i wanted

I never said it was a good idea to put the 4th line on the PP or the PK on the PP

I ASKED you if that was a good idea using YOUR logic that it couldn't be any worse

 

I am NOT defending Green, but I am NOT blindly supporting Shaw either from what i read and see

If You want to go ahead, No need to get emotional about it

I shared my opinion, unless someone convinces me otherwise It is what it is and done with it

 

BTW

The shootout was implemented in the year of his Interim Coach duty in 2005/06

You are the one selling Shaw because he can do no worse

Clearly you didn’t read anything I wrote. I never suggested he should be the next full time coach of the Canucks. I said Green needs to no longer be coach of the Canucks and an interim coach makes more sense than letting Benning hire another garbage coach. 
 

Not sure why you blame Shaw for this season but not Green. Only one is the HEAD COACH.

 

Your suggestion about the pk and pp is a false equivalency you came up with. It has nothing to do with replacing Green with an interim coach. 
 

I never said to hire Shaw as interim coach BECAUSE he would be no worse than Green. I simply said he couldn’t possibly be worse than Green so since hiring an interim coach is a safer option than letting dimbulb Benning go 0 for 3 on coach hires, it makes much more sense to go that route. 

Edited November 22, 2021 by wallstreetamigo

[Ballisticsports.]

1 hour ago, wallstreetamigo said:

Clearly you didn’t read anything I wrote. I never suggested he should be the next full time coach of the Canucks. I said Green needs to no longer be coach of the Canucks and an interim coach makes more sense than letting Benning hire another garbage coach. 
 

Not sure why you blame Shaw for this season but not Green. Only one is the HEAD COACH.

 

Your suggestion about the pk and pp is a false equivalency you came up with. It has nothing to do with replacing Green with an interim coach. 
 

I never said to hire Shaw as interim coach BECAUSE he would be no worse than Green. I simply said he couldn’t possibly be worse than Green so since hiring an interim coach is a safer option than letting dimbulb Benning go 0 for 3 on coach hires, it makes much more sense to go that route. 

I wasn't debating if Green should remain the coach or not

Just your assumption that everyone but Clarke and Shaw should be fired

I agree that Clarke should remain based on his body of work

 

But I question the devotion towards Shaw and if he should remain over all others, after all (we were bad last year but never were this bad till he came)

I don't know for sure if  Shaw or Green should be fired

At year end meetings, the players must not had had issue with Green or he would not have been resigned for 2 years

I am sure people are aware of what the problem is and hopefully will be corrected

 

Hansen went as far t say it doesn't matter who is coaching it is the personel

Sounds like Hansen leaning towards the GM's responsibility to provide the players who can do the job with pride and skill

Sounds like it is a mix of everything with no quick fix or one person responsible

A team consists of everyone working TOGETHER to achieve a "goal' 

Something is obviously wrong 

 

Why not put Benning in charge, and get his guys to play like Quinn and other Gms have?

[RU SERIOUS]

One more loss until Green and those rookie - AHL Calibre coaches are all gone!

 

FINALLY !

[wallstreetamigo]

11 minutes ago, ba;;isticsports said:

I wasn't debating if Green should remain the coach or not

Just your assumption that everyone but Clarke and Shaw should be fired

I agree that Clarke should remain based on his body of work

 

But I question the devotion towards Shaw and if he should remain over all others, after all (we were bad last year but never were this bad till he came)

I don't know for sure if  Shaw or Green should be fired

At year end meetings, the players must not had had issue with Green or he would not have been resigned for 2 years

I am sure people are aware of what the problem is and hopefully will be corrected

 

Hansen went as far t say it doesn't matter who is coaching it is the personel

Sounds like Hansen leaning towards the GM's responsibility to provide the players who can do the job with pride and skill

Sounds like it is a mix of everything with no quick fix or one person responsible

A team consists of everyone working TOGETHER to achieve a "goal' 

Something is obviously wrong 

 

Why not put Benning in charge, and get his guys to play like Quinn and other Gms have?

I am suggesting keeping Shaw for a specific reason. So that a long term hire is not made by Benning or without proper evaluation of what they need in the next coach.

 

Firing everyone except Clark forces a decision on a new head coach right away. Keeping Shaw let’s them buy some time to make the best possible hire.

 

Unless you think Baumgartner, King, etc are better options for interim coach? Or even Clarke who is a goalie coach?

Hansen is a Green fan. He is hardly objective in his analysis about the coaching. 
 

The one thing that is “wrong” with the team is it’s identity of accepting losing and blaming outside factors. That comes directly from the GM and the coach as both do it constantly. That’s why both need to go. The roster has been turned over a ton already. The only constants are management and Green. Try changing them out first IMO.

[thundernuts]

Anyone know what Dale Tallon is doing these days?  It'd be cool to bring back our first ever draft pick to try and get us out of this mess.

[Hairy Kneel]

I had a 24 year old foreman once. Somebody's nephew, just like to drive around in the bobcat. We got more work done when he was not around. 

[combover]

Some good stuff. 
 

 

https://nhl.nbcsports.com/2014/05/23/canucks-a-team-we-can-turn-around-in-a-hurry-says-new-gm-benning/amp/

[CanucksJay]

Nice to see coaches in other leagues owning their part in poor team performance. 

Have we seen Green ever talk about him and his staff? 

 

https://www.tsn.ca/new-york-giants-joe-judge-points-finger-at-coaching-staff-after-loss-to-bucs-mum-on-jason-garrett-s-status-as-oc-19.24336

[Sharpshooter]

Fire Green

[DeNiro]

I’d like them to take a look at Tom Renney in a President role if they can’t get someone like Rutherford.

 

Seems like he has the perfect personality and resume to take on that role. Well respected around the league and could probably bring in a top notch GM and coach.