HKSR Posted June 15, 2022 Share Posted June 15, 2022 (edited) 10 hours ago, mll said: They took an immediate step forward after trading Duchene going from last to a playoff team. It's been upwards ever since that trade. Duchene was traded after a season where they finished last with 48pts - 21pts lower than the next worse team. Sakic was pretty much considered one of the worse GMs in the league before that Duchene trade. Bednar was also being questioned as coach after such a poor season. Sakic had tried to remain competitive by adding veterans and that plan failed. Landeskog and Duchene were put on the trade block then. Duchene was traded in season and they made the playoffs that year after finishing last the season before. They had changed approach. Sakic explained that if they were going to lose anyway they might as well lose with young players developing. Handing the team over to the youth had them take a quicker step forward. Moving Duchene put MacKinnon at C1 and he broke out that season. Behind the scenes they moved out quite a few scouts and remodelled the department. They also relied more on analytics to build their team. Duchene was traded on Nov 5, 2017. At that point of the season, the Avs were 8-6 after 14 games (or 0.571 winning %), which was good for around 94 points on the season if extrapolated. In fact, they eventually finished with 95 points that season after the dust settled. So you could argue that the trade made a difference of 1pt that season. Duchene was traded for Kyle Turris, Andrew Hammond, Shane Bowers, Conditional 1st (Byram), and 3rd (Stienburg). Turris eventually turned into Sam Girard. So yes, it helped in the long run as Girard is a key component of their D core, and Byram looks to be a good one moving forward, but to say that the Duchene trade immediately paid dividends and took them from last place to a playoff spot is false. They were already on their way. Mackinnon had 14 pts in 14 games as of that point of the season. Rantanen had 12 pts in 14 games. These 2 guys were breaking out for the first time. That's the reason for the upwards trajectory since then (doesn't hurt to add a Makar in the mix too). Oh, and if curious, Matt Duchene had 10 pts in those first 14 games of the season. MacKinnon had already taken over as 1C in terms of production. Edited June 15, 2022 by HKSR 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shiznak Posted June 15, 2022 Share Posted June 15, 2022 16 minutes ago, HKSR said: Duchene was traded on Nov 5, 2017. At that point of the season, the Avs were 8-6 after 14 games (or 0.571 winning %), which was good for around 94 points on the season if extrapolated. In fact, they eventually finished with 95 points that season after the dust settled. So you could argue that the trade made a difference of 1pt that season. Duchene was traded for Kyle Turris, Andrew Hammond, Shane Bowers, Conditional 1st (Byram), and 3rd (Stienburg). Turris eventually turned into Sam Girard. So yes, it helped in the long run as Girard is a key component of their D core, and Byram looks to be a good one moving forward, but to say that the Duchene trade immediately paid dividends and took them from last place to a playoff spot is false. He was talking about the trajectory of the team by seasons. Colorado has been in the playoffs, ever since they made that trade. Prior to that, the only made the playoffs once in 4 seasons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HKSR Posted June 15, 2022 Share Posted June 15, 2022 (edited) 5 minutes ago, shiznak said: He was talking about the trajectory of the team by seasons. Colorado has been in the playoffs, ever since they made that trade. Prior to that, the only made the playoffs once in 4 seasons. I get what he's saying, but I'd argue the main reason for the major upwards trajectory was the breakout of Mackinnon and Rantanen. I updated my post above. Mac and Rantanen were breaking out before Duchene was even traded. That's like the Canucks walking into this coming season, and after 14 games, Petey is clearly the #1C at a PPG pace, and Boeser is clearly back to the rookie Boeser and on pace for 70pts and 35 goals. Then it's not nearly as daunting of a trade to move out Miller for futures seeing the impact your 2 young guns are having on the team. Add to that the fact Miller would be at 10 pts in 14 games... or on pace for 59 points. It's obvious what you would do at that point. To be honest, it would be eerily similar. Mackinnon and Rantanen start the 2017-18 season on fire. PPG pace for Mac, 70pt pace for Rantanen. Duchene on pace for 59pts with 1 year left on his deal looking for a fat pay raise. Say Petey and Boeser start the 2022-23 season on fire ... PPG pace for Petey, and 70pt pace for Boeser. Miller on pace for 59pts with 1 year left on his deal looking for a fat pay raise. How easy would the decision be then? Edited June 15, 2022 by HKSR 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mll Posted June 15, 2022 Share Posted June 15, 2022 8 minutes ago, HKSR said: I get what he's saying, but I'd argue the main reason for the major upwards trajectory was the breakout of Mackinnon and Rantanen. I updated my post above. Mac and Rantanen were breaking out before Duchene was even traded. That's like the Canucks walking into this coming season, and after 14 games, Petey is clearly the #1C at a PPG pace, and Boeser is clearly back to the rookie Boeser and on pace for 70pts and 35 goals. Then it's not nearly as daunting of a trade to move out Miller for futures seeing the impact your 2 young guns are having on the team. Add to that the fact Miller would be at 10 pts in 14 games... or on pace for 59 points. It's obvious what you would do at that point. To be honest, it would be eerily similar. Mackinnon and Rantanen start the 2017-18 season on fire. PPG pace for Mac, 70pt pace for Rantanen. Duchene on pace for 59pts with 1 year left on his deal looking for a fat pay raise. Say Petey and Boeser start the 2022-23 season on fire ... PPG pace for Petey, and 70pt pace for Boeser. Miller on pace for 59pts with 1 year left on his deal looking for a fat pay raise. How easy would the decision be then? I'm disputing the comment by Alf that Colorado took a step back after trading Duchene. They didn't. They were already moving forward at that point and continued. Sakic realised that loading the team with veterans was not the right direction and changed course. They integrated more young players and started climbing out of the basement. They also didn't have a good team when they decided to make Duchene available - he was put on the trade block along with Landeskog when they were way last in the standings. Landeskog wanted to stay while Duchene wanted to move on even though the team played better to start the season - he had logged off from the team at that point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gawdzukes Posted June 15, 2022 Share Posted June 15, 2022 20 minutes ago, HKSR said: I get what he's saying, but I'd argue the main reason for the major upwards trajectory was the breakout of Mackinnon and Rantanen. I updated my post above. Mac and Rantanen were breaking out before Duchene was even traded. That's like the Canucks walking into this coming season, and after 14 games, Petey is clearly the #1C at a PPG pace, and Boeser is clearly back to the rookie Boeser and on pace for 70pts and 35 goals. Then it's not nearly as daunting of a trade to move out Miller for futures seeing the impact your 2 young guns are having on the team. Add to that the fact Miller would be at 10 pts in 14 games... or on pace for 59 points. It's obvious what you would do at that point. To be honest, it would be eerily similar. Mackinnon and Rantanen start the 2017-18 season on fire. PPG pace for Mac, 70pt pace for Rantanen. Duchene on pace for 59pts with 1 year left on his deal looking for a fat pay raise. Say Petey and Boeser start the 2022-23 season on fire ... PPG pace for Petey, and 70pt pace for Boeser. Miller on pace for 59pts with 1 year left on his deal looking for a fat pay raise. How easy would the decision be then? So you're saying trade Miller. Finally... you have come to your senses. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HKSR Posted June 15, 2022 Share Posted June 15, 2022 13 minutes ago, Gawdzukes said: So you're saying trade Miller. Finally... you have come to your senses. Lol. Go away! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HKSR Posted June 15, 2022 Share Posted June 15, 2022 20 minutes ago, mll said: I'm disputing the comment by Alf that Colorado took a step back after trading Duchene. They didn't. They were already moving forward at that point and continued. Sakic realised that loading the team with veterans was not the right direction and changed course. They integrated more young players and started climbing out of the basement. They also didn't have a good team when they decided to make Duchene available - he was put on the trade block along with Landeskog when they were way last in the standings. Landeskog wanted to stay while Duchene wanted to move on even though the team played better to start the season - he had logged off from the team at that point. I think it's fair to say if the Canucks were 32nd overall in the entire standings this past season, NOBODY would argue that keeping Miller is a good idea. Moving veterans when you're dead last in the league makes a ton of sense. You can't exactly get any worse. And in terms of taking a step back when you're literally last overall in the league? How is that even possible unless you can fall out of the NHL? lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mll Posted June 15, 2022 Share Posted June 15, 2022 (edited) 18 minutes ago, HKSR said: I think it's fair to say if the Canucks were 32nd overall in the entire standings this past season, NOBODY would argue that keeping Miller is a good idea. Moving veterans when you're dead last in the league makes a ton of sense. You can't exactly get any worse. And in terms of taking a step back when you're literally last overall in the league? How is that even possible unless you can fall out of the NHL? lol My answer was to a comment that said Colorado had a good team and decided to trade Duchene and take a few steps back, and suggesting that Vancouver should maybe do the same and trade Horvat/Miller. That's not what happened in Colorado though. Duchene was put on the trade block because they were last in the standings - not some made up idea that Colorado was competitive and Sakic smartly decided to retool anyways. It's in part the Duchene trade that had the public opinion change on him - before then he was widely considered one of the worse GMs in the league. They also made also a lot of changes behind the scenes - scouting and analytics. Edited June 15, 2022 by mll Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HKSR Posted June 15, 2022 Share Posted June 15, 2022 14 minutes ago, mll said: My answer was to a comment that said Colorado had a good team and decided to trade Duchene and take a few steps back, and suggesting that Vancouver should maybe do the same and trade Horvat/Miller. That's not what happened in Colorado though. Duchene was put on the trade block because they were last in the standings - not some made up idea that Colorado was competitive and Sakic smartly decided to retool anyways. It's in part the Duchene trade that had the public opinion change on him - before then he was widely considered one of the worse GMs in the league. I agree. Not the same scenarios for Colorado and Vancouver. Colorado was dead last, while Vancouver was on the cusp of making the playoffs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JM_ Posted June 15, 2022 Share Posted June 15, 2022 On 6/14/2022 at 11:30 AM, Warhippy said: They HAD the assets to move and maximized value on them when they did it. We...refuse to. We'd rather retain them and keep throwing the same turd at the wall but... what if we didn't this time? Just moving Miller isn't going to be enough of a re-tool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JM_ Posted June 15, 2022 Share Posted June 15, 2022 21 hours ago, aGENT said: When you look at the two teams in the finals...can you honestly tell me that a "slight improvement" is going to cut it? care to quote me where I said it would be? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aGENT Posted June 16, 2022 Share Posted June 16, 2022 1 hour ago, JM_ said: care to quote me where I said it would be? Don't dodge. What do you think the team's aim should be? To be an "ok" team? Like what do think it is "we" have been arguing about for months here? Is a moderately better, 95% the same but more expensive roster going to put us in the conversation with the likes of Tampa, Colorado, Carolina, Florida etc...? Does it even get us in the rung down conversation, with the likes of Toronto, Calgary, Dallas, Nashville, St. Louis etc? There's a reason some of us only see this as a one answer problem. 1 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JM_ Posted June 16, 2022 Share Posted June 16, 2022 (edited) 30 minutes ago, aGENT said: Don't dodge. What do you think the team's aim should be? To be an "ok" team? Like what do think it is "we" have been arguing about for months here? Is a moderately better, 95% the same but more expensive roster going to put us in the conversation with the likes of Tampa, Colorado, Carolina, Florida etc...? Does it even get us in the rung down conversation, with the likes of Toronto, Calgary, Dallas, Nashville, St. Louis etc? There's a reason some of us only see this as a one answer problem. um, you're the one dodging here. You claimed I said something that I didn't say, it would be nice of you to own up to that. I've made it very clear what I'd like to see, page up to see it. Edited June 16, 2022 by JM_ 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aGENT Posted June 16, 2022 Share Posted June 16, 2022 2 minutes ago, JM_ said: um, you're the one dodging here. You claimed I said something that I didn't say, it would be nice of you to owned up to that. I've made it very clear what I'd like to see, page up to see it. I never "claimed" you said anything. I outright asked you if you thought a "slight improvement" by following your "re-up Miller and tweak" plan is good enough to considered in the same postal code as other contenders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Herberts Vasiljevs Posted June 18, 2022 Share Posted June 18, 2022 Holy crap. Listening to that Torts presser, I would think that there is serious interest in acquring a player like JT... 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alflives Posted June 18, 2022 Share Posted June 18, 2022 3 hours ago, Herberts Vasiljevs said: Holy crap. Listening to that Torts presser, I would think that there is serious interest in acquring a player like JT... What do the Flyers have we would want? Myers for Provorov? Miller for ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alflives Posted June 18, 2022 Share Posted June 18, 2022 When we trade Miller (or Bo) maybe we sign a couple UFAs to fill in after Petey and Bo? Lazar or Rodriguez? Right shot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stawns Posted June 18, 2022 Share Posted June 18, 2022 4 hours ago, Herberts Vasiljevs said: Holy crap. Listening to that Torts presser, I would think that there is serious interest in acquring a player like JT... There's not much in Philly I'd want 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AC Readership Posted June 18, 2022 Share Posted June 18, 2022 1 hour ago, Alflives said: What do the Flyers have we would want? Myers for Provorov? Miller for ? What about this? Flyers Receive: Miller ($2.625M retained) Myers ($3M retained) Canucks Receive: JVR Combo of these players & assets: 5th OA 23 1st Frost York Tuomaala Foerster I don't think the Flyers would give up Provorov if they're going all in and the only D prospect they have that's worth anything is York. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goal:thecup Posted June 18, 2022 Share Posted June 18, 2022 1 hour ago, Alflives said: What do the Flyers have we would want? Myers for Provorov? Miller for ? Miller for Attard, 5th overall this year, and Philly's 1st in 2023. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts