[Rumour] Bo Horvat Trade/Contract Talks

[fanfor42]

I posted a thread  a while ago that asked is Rutherford the new Keenan.  Meaning is he going to tear it down and move out key pieces and change the team.

 

Well seem that the first change will be Horvat the captain leaving which is a lot like Linden the Captain leaving.

 

So ya.  i think history will show that Rutherford is this decades Keenan as he changes the team dramatically. Like it or not.

 

Good or bad? Who knows.  Took a lot of years for Keenan's changes to turn into anything and even then... nobody won anything.

 

 

[wai_lai416]

2 hours ago, Elias Pettersson said:

Didn't Miller play centre primarily last year when he got his 99 points?  He took over 1200 faceoffs last year and was well over 50%.  Not sure what you mean by Miller having an easier faceoff matchup.  Do you know exactly who he took his draws against?  is that now another stat to favour BO, that he took faceoffs against harder competition?  Is there now a stat for that too?

 

I never said Miller was Bure or Linden.  He is who he is.  He is not a saviour either, but we have him now and we've had him for the last 5 years and he will be with us for another 7 years.  So some people will need to deal with that.  Miller has been a point a game player for his whole career with Vancouver, going on 5 years now, so his body of work is alot more than with BO.  BO is a career 55 point centre.  You can dream all you want that he is now a 60 goal scorer, but the facts are he has never been on that level and may not even hit 50 goals.  He is having a career yer, he may never achieve these heights again.  You can speculate all you want, but the fact is you have no clue what Horvat will do after this year and for the next 8 years.

 

Nick Paul is a great 3C who was available last year.  He was available for a B roster player and a 4th round pick. That doesn't seem like alot to pay for a 3C.  There were several available in free agency as well, but JR did not seem to want to take any of them as he had other priorities.

 

A 30 year old Horvat versus a 32 year old Miller?  How do you know which one will be better?  You are looking in real time in a situation where one player, Horvat, is playing at a level that is not sustainable for him, versus another player, Miller, who is having his worst season in Vancouver but still has 26 points.  Once both players come back to earth and follow their career paths, their trajectory will be much different.

 

If Horvat is as good as you think he is then we should get quite a haul for him in any trade, so we will improve our team.  

oops didn't know u were waiting for a reply lol

 

Miller played center primarily up until this year, but the player that was task with the defensive burden was EP and Pearson in previous years. if u watch it's mostly EP and Pearson that was the 1st forward back. as for faceoff what i'm saying is because bo is mostly matched up in the defensive zone so he's usually doing faceoff mostly against the other teams top 2 forward line. and most likely their better faceoff centers. so Miller would have easier competition.. like example horvat would get a lot of draws against bergeron and krecji in the defensive zone.. and miller would get a lot more the 3/4th line center and the occasional bergeron in the offensive zone. i think it's also a good thing because EP and Miller have a much better chance at winning the draw in the offensive zone against less skilled centerman.

 

isn't this only miller's 4th year not 5?  i completely agree with you Miller's last 3 years body of work is much more impressive. but you also have to factor in the age difference they both set career highs at the age of 26. horvat set career highs in goals, miller set career highs in points. prior to age 26 i have to say bo was far more consistent and impressive. Miller started to uptick at the age of 26. Horvat also started to uptick at the age of 26. so i don't think it's fair to say well Miller last 4 years is more impressive than Horvat's last 4 years. i would say their stats at the same age really is a wash.. main difference being 1 is put in more offensive situation the other more in a defensive situation so i'd say horvat's stats to me anyways is far more impressive because he's doing it while being a matchup player where miller is doing it as a 1s liner with slightly better players and way more offensive situation.

 

tbh i won't know who's going to be better.. at 30 32 etc etc. what i'm saying though is let's just assume their growth and decline is parallel. having horvat still here when he's 30 and we are ready to compete would be better than having a miller here at 32. 

 

but regardless if horvat is moved so be it, but i'm also prepared for disappointments and we end up getting fleeced in a trade. it's the canucks way.

 

my point was Horvat fits this teams timeline much better than Miller if they are planning on a retool. Miller at 26 is slightly better than horvat at 26 but Horvat at 27 is better than Miller at 27 and who knows when horvat hits 28 maybe the team that signs horvat will give him the opportunity to be a 1c like Miller was given the oppportunity with the canucks and he becomes a 40 goal 40 assist guy. or maybe even a 45-50 goal guy 20 assist guy who knows. in an ideal world we keep both never made the OEL trade. ate the last year of rousell le and i forgot the 4th liners name.. then we waponize our cap space this off season or use a 1st that we wasted in the OEL trade to dump myers if needed.. we'd be swimming in cap space and not even worried about the boeser cap hit.

[Elias Pettersson]

3 minutes ago, fanfor42 said:

I posted a thread  a while ago that asked is Rutherford the new Keenan.  Meaning is he going to tear it down and move out key pieces and change the team.

 

Well seem that the first change will be Horvat the captain leaving which is a lot like Linden the Captain leaving.

 

So ya.  i think history will show that Rutherford is this decades Keenan as he changes the team dramatically. Like it or not.

 

Good or bad? Who knows.  Took a lot of years for Keenan's changes to turn into anything and even then... nobody won anything.

 

 

I would agree with that.  Benning was too nice to do the dirty work.  JR was brought in to do what Keenan did.  Trade the captain, trade the likeable Boeser and a few other guys.  He will be remembered as the guy who made this Petey's team and changed the course of the franchise.  Horvat is actually doing him a favour by having a career year, so makes it even easier for JR to trade him for maximum value.

[Elias Pettersson]

Brandon Carlo played under 16 minutes tonight on the 3rd pairing.  Is he on his way out of Boston?

 

Luke Schenn can do the same as Carlo on the 3rd pairing for Boston.  Horvat can be their deadline deal to take them over the top.  I am still proposing this trade as I think it is the best one out there and satisfies both teams...

 

To Boston:

 

Bo Horvat

Luke Schenn

 

To Vancouver:

 

Fabian Lysell

Brandon Carlo

Trent Frederic

2023 1st round pick

 

Carlo instantly becomes our best RHD.  Lysell would be the perfect winger for Miller.  Frederic can take on the heavyweights.  And another 1st round pick in the best draft in over 20 years.

[hockeygod77]

12 hours ago, Canuckfanforlife82 said:

This team isn't built to win a cup with him. They sign him, they have no money to improve the rest of the team. It does nothing long term to keep him. He would be great if we had a team around him capable of winning but there are just too many holes that can't be filled. They just did it wrong. It really is heading towards a rebuild whether now or later. They can keep trying though. They have for many years. It sure seems to be working.

WELL DO YOU WANT TO BUILD A TEAM WITH THE PROPER PLAYERS..BO IS A HOCKEY PLAYER..HE IS NOT JUST PLAYING HOCKEY FOR THE CONTRACTS LIKE SOME MAY SEEM..I THINK HE LIVES AND BREATHES THE GAME...SOME HOCKEY PLAYERS JUST PLAY..REAL HOCKEY PLAYERS DO IT FOR THE GAMES PASSION AND GLORY..BO IS IN MY VIEW TOP 10 IN THE NHL ...YOU TRADE HIM ITS LONG HAUL FINDING A PIECE LIKE HIM FOR A REBUILD....WHAT YOU GET IN RETURN I THINK WILL NOT MATCH AND TEAM WILL STRUGGLE WAY MORE..THE CANUCKS ARE NOT RIPPING IT UP BUT HEY THEY ARE NOT AS BADD AS MOST FANS THINK...PATIENCE AND THINGS WILL MOVE ALONG WITH OR WTH A FEW TRADES..BUT NOT BO ..BIG ERROR..IF THEY DO..

[Elias Pettersson]

11 minutes ago, wai_lai416 said:

oops didn't know u were waiting for a reply lol

 

Miller played center primarily up until this year, but the player that was task with the defensive burden was EP and Pearson in previous years. if u watch it's mostly EP and Pearson that was the 1st forward back. as for faceoff what i'm saying is because bo is mostly matched up in the defensive zone so he's usually doing faceoff mostly against the other teams top 2 forward line. and most likely their better faceoff centers. so Miller would have easier competition.. like example horvat would get a lot of draws against bergeron and krecji in the defensive zone.. and miller would get a lot more the 3/4th line center and the occasional bergeron in the offensive zone. i think it's also a good thing because EP and Miller have a much better chance at winning the draw in the offensive zone against less skilled centerman.

 

isn't this only miller's 4th year not 5?  i completely agree with you Miller's last 3 years body of work is much more impressive. but you also have to factor in the age difference they both set career highs at the age of 26. horvat set career highs in goals, miller set career highs in points. prior to age 26 i have to say bo was far more consistent and impressive. Miller started to uptick at the age of 26. Horvat also started to uptick at the age of 26. so i don't think it's fair to say well Miller last 4 years is more impressive than Horvat's last 4 years. i would say their stats at the same age really is a wash.. main difference being 1 is put in more offensive situation the other more in a defensive situation so i'd say horvat's stats to me anyways is far more impressive because he's doing it while being a matchup player where miller is doing it as a 1s liner with slightly better players and way more offensive situation.

 

tbh i won't know who's going to be better.. at 30 32 etc etc. what i'm saying though is let's just assume their growth and decline is parallel. having horvat still here when he's 30 and we are ready to compete would be better than having a miller here at 32. 

 

but regardless if horvat is moved so be it, but i'm also prepared for disappointments and we end up getting fleeced in a trade. it's the canucks way.

 

my point was Horvat fits this teams timeline much better than Miller if they are planning on a retool. Miller at 26 is slightly better than horvat at 26 but Horvat at 27 is better than Miller at 27 and who knows when horvat hits 28 maybe the team that signs horvat will give him the opportunity to be a 1c like Miller was given the oppportunity with the canucks and he becomes a 40 goal 40 assist guy. or maybe even a 45-50 goal guy 20 assist guy who knows. in an ideal world we keep both never made the OEL trade. ate the last year of rousell le and i forgot the 4th liners name.. then we waponize our cap space this off season or use a 1st that we wasted in the OEL trade to dump myers if needed.. we'd be swimming in cap space and not even worried about the boeser cap hit.

Haha, I wasn't really waiting for a reply, but I figured you'd come back at me anyways...   

 

In an ideal world I don't have a problem keeping Horvat to be honest.  If Miller had been traded last year at the deadline when he was at his peak then for sure, you re-sign Horvat in the summer and we probably get him at 7x8 or so and he's happy.  Problem is we re-signed Miller instead so now we are stuck.  Those who think we can just trade Miller are dreaming.  We all know that's not going to happen, and anyways he's not a 99 point guy right now so the value coming back would be worse than last year.

 

At the end of the day, our best trade chip is Horvat.  That is a compliment to him.  He obviously doesn't want to be here anymore, even though some may not feel that way.  I think they are shopping him as we speak.  Just like the Linden deal, JR has the opportunity to cash in big with our current captain, so as long as we get a good return I think most people will be happy.

 

Look at my trade proposal with Boston.  Carlo was on the 3rd pairing tonight.  Lysell is gonna light it up at the WJC.  Frederic is a beast.  That is the best proposal we are gonna get.  JR has to move fast though, I mean what if Horvat goes in a slump and screws everything up?  I mean Horvat hasn't scored in 2 games now so I'm kinda worried to be honest, lol...

[stawns]

1 hour ago, Pears said:

Yep. Too ignorant to put away 2-3 years to properly rebuild and if we did he’d have made so much more money than what he’s making right now. 

2-3 years?  Don't fool yourself, we're looking at 8ish years

[N4ZZY]

3 hours ago, rekker said:

True or not. F YOU Sid.

I mean, I remember when the Leafs were a fire tire. Where was Sid's criticism of Toronto back then? 

 

Eastern Media knows nothing of the Canucks. Who cares what Sid says. What does he know. 

 

[N4ZZY]

24 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

Haha, I wasn't really waiting for a reply, but I figured you'd come back at me anyways...   

 

In an ideal world I don't have a problem keeping Horvat to be honest.  If Miller had been traded last year at the deadline when he was at his peak then for sure, you re-sign Horvat in the summer and we probably get him at 7x8 or so and he's happy.  Problem is we re-signed Miller instead so now we are stuck.  Those who think we can just trade Miller are dreaming.  We all know that's not going to happen, and anyways he's not a 99 point guy right now so the value coming back would be worse than last year.

 

At the end of the day, our best trade chip is Horvat.  That is a compliment to him.  He obviously doesn't want to be here anymore, even though some may not feel that way.  I think they are shopping him as we speak.  Just like the Linden deal, JR has the opportunity to cash in big with our current captain, so as long as we get a good return I think most people will be happy.

 

Look at my trade proposal with Boston.  Carlo was on the 3rd pairing tonight.  Lysell is gonna light it up at the WJC.  Frederic is a beast.  That is the best proposal we are gonna get.  JR has to move fast though, I mean what if Horvat goes in a slump and screws everything up?  I mean Horvat hasn't scored in 2 games now so I'm kinda worried to be honest, lol...

Well, if he goes on a slump, then he'll come cheaper

 

The last place I want to send Bo is to Boston. No way. I can't see him in Bruins colors. 

 

Why would you say that it's obvious that he doesn't want to be here anymore? 

 

[N4ZZY]

On 12/12/2022 at 6:20 PM, Alflives said:

IMHAO our owner, like he did with Miller, will not allow us to lose Bo.  We will sign Bo before the TDL. 

Well, it is his toy, soooooo

 

[wai_lai416]

47 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

Haha, I wasn't really waiting for a reply, but I figured you'd come back at me anyways...   

 

In an ideal world I don't have a problem keeping Horvat to be honest.  If Miller had been traded last year at the deadline when he was at his peak then for sure, you re-sign Horvat in the summer and we probably get him at 7x8 or so and he's happy.  Problem is we re-signed Miller instead so now we are stuck.  Those who think we can just trade Miller are dreaming.  We all know that's not going to happen, and anyways he's not a 99 point guy right now so the value coming back would be worse than last year.

 

At the end of the day, our best trade chip is Horvat.  That is a compliment to him.  He obviously doesn't want to be here anymore, even though some may not feel that way.  I think they are shopping him as we speak.  Just like the Linden deal, JR has the opportunity to cash in big with our current captain, so as long as we get a good return I think most people will be happy.

 

Look at my trade proposal with Boston.  Carlo was on the 3rd pairing tonight.  Lysell is gonna light it up at the WJC.  Frederic is a beast.  That is the best proposal we are gonna get.  JR has to move fast though, I mean what if Horvat goes in a slump and screws everything up?  I mean Horvat hasn't scored in 2 games now so I'm kinda worried to be honest, lol...

if we can get lysell a 1st and carlo for 50% horvat they can have schenn too i'm down but i dunno if they'll include lysell in any trade tbh and i hope the center piece around a boston trade isn't carlo because by the time we are ready i reckon carlo will be 30 so nearing a end of prime player. and i also don't honestly see boston going for horvat.. reason being he doesn't really fit their team this year.. next year for sure but right now he's not going to play on the wing. don't think he's playing ahead of bergeron and don't see him playing with pastrnak as he needs krejci for setup and horvat doesn't exactly set anyone up.. nor is there a spot for him on pp1 so i dont think boston is in play for horvat.. but that's just my thinking

[Angry Goose]

56 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

Brandon Carlo played under 16 minutes tonight on the 3rd pairing.  Is he on his way out of Boston?

 

Luke Schenn can do the same as Carlo on the 3rd pairing for Boston.  Horvat can be their deadline deal to take them over the top.  I am still proposing this trade as I think it is the best one out there and satisfies both teams...

 

To Boston:

 

Bo Horvat

Luke Schenn

 

To Vancouver:

 

Fabian Lysell

Brandon Carlo

Trent Frederic

2023 1st round pick

 

Carlo instantly becomes our best RHD.  Lysell would be the perfect winger for Miller.  Frederic can take on the heavyweights.  And another 1st round pick in the best draft in over 20 years.

Lets say this happen. Would u do:

 

to FLA

 

Hughes

 

to VAN

 

Lundell 

 

Lundell takes 2C vacancy w/ Miller and Lysell on his wing.  Or Podz or Hoagie.

 

Then u try to trade for or sign a UFA LD (Meyers MUST be moved after his signing bonus) like Graves, Orlov, etc. (open to ideas).

 

Your top 4 D

 

xxx Carlo

OEL Bear

 

OEL assumes PP1 Bear PP2. 

 

Canucks lose Bo and Hughes but gain their 2C and the defence becomes a bit more balanced.  OEL is good enough to still be an effective PP1 player.

 

And if they get say Trotz or someone a bit more defensively minded……

[Elias Pettersson]

57 minutes ago, N4ZZY said:

Well, if he goes on a slump, then he'll come cheaper

 

The last place I want to send Bo is to Boston. No way. I can't see him in Bruins colors. 

 

Why would you say that it's obvious that he doesn't want to be here anymore? 

 

He turned down an 8x8 offer?  Or close to it anyways...

[qwijibo]

30 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

He turned down an 8x8 offer?  Or close to it anyways...

The rumour regarding the offer is it was 8 years.  Subsequent speculation offered that the total money was under $50m (which would put the AAV at $6.65m.  Elliot Friedman believes the offer AAV started with a 7.  I haven’t seen any reports suggesting it was $8m x 8 

[RinkonRenfrew]

I’m going to miss horvat. Named my dog Bowie after him (not a wiener dog - not that kid). If he wants to go I support him and will cheer him on. Don’t fault hom at all. He hasn’t been everything this team needs to be successful, but who could be (other than Demko during a heater). 
 

I read those locker room rumours and take them with a grain of salt. The spectacular and consistent ways we have been losing over the last many years would probably make me want to move on to, and perhaps not be the best teammate at the end of game.
 

The mic’d up speech of Bieksa in the dressing room recently really put it home for me. It takes a 5-6-7 forwards, 3-4-5 defenders, and 1 or 2 goalies really pushing each other to be the best. It’s clear we don’t have that. I have no doubt Luke and Bo would be two of those guys. I can see Miller being one of those guys too when things are going well, but I just don’t believe there are enough mature level heads to keep things steady in that room - game to game, especially after some losses. In time, I’m sure some more  players will become that. I really hope that includes Petey and Hughes. I don’t doubt the desire to win. 
 

We seem destined for a step back if Horvat moves on. Destined for a step back if Miller is traded and Horvat re-signs. Maybe we keep both, but at this point I believe we’re better off trading both and let/force new voices to emerge in that room. I really believe Miller requires a veteran room to be effective and not overshadow the young voices. He is clearly a strong personality. It was a real treat watching him get his 99 last year, but if we’re turning the page he needs to go. 
 

As a fan, these are sad days. I did my best to believe we were a strong bubble team last September and was looking forward to a fun, if futile season. Now I’m having trouble caring what happens. Still happy when we win, but mostly apathetic with the occasional Bedard dream. Not how I want to feel about my team. I get patience is needed in a cap world, but to the front office: please be honest to us and do what you say. All in. Fire sale rebuild. Retool around Petey and Hughes. Just let me know. I want to support and cheer for something, I just need to know what.

[The King of Kings]

On 12/13/2022 at 12:39 PM, stawns said:

Bear, Stillman and Pefersen for a 5th, a second and unloading dickenson.  That's not terrible

Lots of people think it's terrible to giveup the 2nd though, even we all know the dickenson deal is necessary in order to land the Bear deal.

[shiznak]

1 hour ago, Elias Pettersson said:

He turned down an 8x8 offer?  Or close to it anyways...

I don’t know where people got the idea that he turned down 8x8m. 
 

Dhaliwal believes management offered him under 8m and he turned it down. The contract offer could be anywhere between 7-7.9.

Edited December 14, 2022 by shiznak

[J-23]

4 hours ago, Pears said:

Yep. Too ignorant to put away 2-3 years to properly rebuild and if we did he’d have made so much more money than what he’s making right now. 

It will be loner than 2-3 years.

 

Regardless, sucks see all these other teams that will be ready to pass us. Ducks are going to have McTavish, Zegras and one of Bedard/Fantilli/Carlsson as their top 3 centres.

[RinkonRenfrew]

8 minutes ago, The King of Kings said:

Lots of people think it's terrible to giveup the 2nd though, even we all know the dickenson deal is necessary in order to land the Bear deal.

At the start of the season, i was expecting us to be in a wildcard spot and PA to trade a second early in the season for some defensive help. 
 

i wish we just gave Abbotsford our second and brought up Brisebois. Bear is okay, might even help us get the 15th pick in the first round next draft. 

[wai_lai416]

49 minutes ago, shiznak said:

I don’t know where people got the idea that he turned down 8x8m. 
 

Dhaliwal believes management offered him under 8m and he turned it down. The contract offer could be anywhere between 7-7.9.

wasn't it he turned down 7x7? coz they said it's just below 50mil.. 8x6.125 doesn't make sense.. so 7x7? which prolly woulda been a last summer deal but prolly not now.