[Rumour] Bo Horvat Trade/Contract Talks

[EddieVedder]

3 hours ago, DrJockitch said:

Captain an actual 30g scorer, centre, steps up game in playoffs and sent out for every important face off. 
People think negotiation should start at 5?  That is crazy.

Trading Bo puts us further behind than trading JT would have. 

These are the same ppl that pigeon holed him as a 3c.   Horvat is a legit top 2 centre and a 1c on a lot of teams.  If he wasnt so heavily relied on defensively, he would be around ppg player.  The team goes nowhere without him.  

[Rackdawg]

6 minutes ago, EddieVedder said:

These are the same ppl that pigeon holed him as a 3c.   Horvat is a legit top 2 centre and a 1c on a lot of teams.  If he wasnt so heavily relied on defensively, he would be around ppg player.  The team goes nowhere without him.  

The teams realy gone nowhere with him ...

[Sophomore Jinx]

12 minutes ago, Rackdawg said:

The teams realy gone nowhere with him ...

That's the thing that peeps always seem to overlook, or disregard. It's as if the team would completely implode if Bo weren't here, which is nonsense, especially when you include the potential pieces that he'd return in a trade.

[EdgarM]

On 9/18/2022 at 11:23 AM, wallstreetamigo said:

You aren’t wrong about any of this really. Here’s the thing though. This market has not had an emotional captain since Linden. We have had those calm, it’s all ok, nothing pisses me off guys. That’s very likely why some like Miller as a potential C. Horvat is essentially a continuation of the Sedins and Naslund and that’s not a negative just a long seen dynamic here. 

This also continues on to the post season which many see as the more critical issue. The sample size of Bo's performance in the playoffs is small and he would have to show he is more like Linden and less like Naslund/Sedin  when it comes to playoff performance. This would include the ability to get your team to play through adversity when it looks like there is nothing left to do. The 94 playoffs gave me the feeling that they were never out it from game 1 with Calgary to game 7 with the NYRs. 

Any playoff series with Nazzy or Hank or Bo had games where we were not going to win the game and there was no one on the team who was going to change that. 

Linden was also lucky though to have good veteran leadership like Babych, Hunter, Courtnall and Adams. He also had a guy(Bure) that was a threat to score every time he was on the ice, which helped. 

[Rackdawg]

16 minutes ago, Sophomore Jinx said:

That's the thing that peeps always seem to overlook, or disregard. It's as if the team would completely implode if Bo weren't here, which is nonsense, especially when you include the potential pieces that he'd return in a trade.

Exactly

[Mustard Tiger]

Trade him if he wants over 6.5

 

We are going to become the Islanders with 5-8m deals with term for everybody lol

[IBatch]

2 hours ago, wai_lai416 said:

you guys think too much about the extra year.. that extra year honestly doesn't mean anything if it's like 500k-1mil off in terms of aav. factoring in taxes and everything.. and depending on whether its 500k or 1mil the difference in aav for 7 vs 8 years.. he'll make more in 7 years if it's 750k-1mil difference before tax and if it's 500k difference.. its like 3mil difference but more like 1.8mil or less after taxes with the possibility of the team dumping you off to a rebuilding team to rid your cap hit. 

 

honestly i think if bo hits the open market.. he'll more than likely have a bidding war and end up with 7.5x7.. if ppl claim miller will be in his prime till 33+ then ppl are signing bo for 6 prime years.. not that bad of a investment getting 6 of 7 prime years with the cap either going up 1mil per year or more depending on the tv deal.. if he re-signs with the canucks i think i'll be exactly 7mil which honestly i think is fair considered PA was willing to give Mihkeyev 4 years at 4.75 for 1 outlier season and 3 invisible playoff 

 

Deals are always thought of as in total dollars.   So absolutely the last year adds value.   It's not a massive advantage, but it is one, teams that own rights use all the time.    One thing you aren't taking into consideration, is again next off season, flat cap.  It's only going up one million.   And as of right now OTT is off the market for teams with available cap space ... who's actually left ... ARI and Seattle.    Do you really think Bo wants to go there?  If he does he's for sure OK with not winning and see you later.    Enjoy the no/low state tax.  

 

Stamkos did this.  He signed a deal that was virtually identical, take home pay wise, with that extra year, if he instead went to TO and what they offered him.   Tavares did too.   Got the same over 7 years, as to what NYI offered him over 8, actually less ... those fans hate him for that ... Those are the two best UFAs to hit the market the last couple decades.  Both former first overalls, each took a different route but each also was paid what they'd get if they went or if they stayed. 

 

Please extrapolate, as to who these "many teams" are that are going to offer Horvat 7.5 x 7.   Im curious as to whom your think will make the room for him.  PHI maybe.   Good luck with two second line centers.   And why would Horvat go there, just to make 52.5 instead of 52 overall?  

 

And BTW, there are several articles about how Stamkos didn't take a "team friendly deal".   It seemed like one ... until you actually work with net pay.   And even if you added say 4 million for the 8th season, it still worked out the same in TB. 

 

In a normal environment i'd tend to agree with you, there could be a bidding war and maybe if it got to 7.5 x 8, that would be the winner.   Horvat isn't worth that though is he.   Not really.  7 x 8 makes a lot of sense.   But even that isn't a discount either.   He's not following suit with Miller.   6.5 x 8 is 52 overall.   7.5 x 7 is 52.5 plus whatever he could make ... maybe 3 after for one year if he wants with cap going up.   

 

I don't think he's going to have the normal amount of suitors.   ARI and maybe Seattle too will end up taking on one bad contract to accelerate their future.   There are 100 or so as of right now in the league.   And only 2 spots.   So maybe that makes a market of 4-6 teams including us, going after Horvat.

 

He simply hasn't earned much more then 6 so far.   Get he's a UFA.   But that's the reality.   

 

 

Edited September 20, 2022 by IBatch

[IBatch]

1 hour ago, EddieVedder said:

These are the same ppl that pigeon holed him as a 3c.   Horvat is a legit top 2 centre and a 1c on a lot of teams.  If he wasnt so heavily relied on defensively, he would be around ppg player.  The team goes nowhere without him.  

Douche bags.   If we want to track Horvat's history, he was actually lucky to play as an 18 year old.   He got the job  because he was good at face offs, and because that team was already on the downhill slope.  If he came in a few years earlier, Horvat might  of had to wait.

 

I don't think Horvat is a line driver like Miller and EP.   Sure he will do better with better wingers ... and sure aside from your favourite player and half a season with Bear, Horvat hasn't got more then 60 points.    A lot of his goals came on the PP the second half, i don't think we can or should be pencilling him in as a perrenial 30 goal scorer yet.  But awfully close.   

 

Wouldn't say he's a first line center on a lot of teams either.   Maybe 4-5...More then a few but not by much.    If we go there, then we also have to look at teams with two centers ahead of Horvat.   Draisatl.  EP or Miller.   Crosby and Malkin etc etc etc etc.   And then Horvat moves down the list quickly ... well sure he's better then McAan in Seattle lol.    But not where you might expect him to be.   
 

Horvat isn't really a play driver.   He does a lot for us absolutely.   And gets his points (like Brock, a lot on the PP, unlike Brock he's not going to hurt you 5 x 5). 

 

And because he's there the rest of the middle six and up, is that much better.   I don't see Horvat as a PPG a player other then maybe one outside year during his prime years ... which he's already in.   

 

Too me he's in the Brayden Schenn territory plus a bit.   

[VegasCanuck]

30 minutes ago, Mustard Tiger said:

Trade him if he wants over 6.5

 

We are going to become the Islanders with 5-8m deals with term for everybody lol

6.5 would be low, I'm hoping that we can land him around 6.9 on 8 year deal.

 

You won't find another guy on the open market with his skillset. In free agency, he's about 7.5 - 7.75, maybe as high as 8.

 

[Scottydzik]

23 minutes ago, VegasCanuck said:

6.5 would be low, I'm hoping that we can land him around 6.9 on 8 year deal.

 

You won't find another guy on the open market with his skillset. In free agency, he's about 7.5 - 7.75, maybe as high as 8.

 

He won’t come under 7. So either Alvin needs put his money where his mouth is and get work fixing our D well paying top dollars for our centres or trade him to fix our d. It has to be done before season we can’t run risk of losing him or the distraction on the team. Either way this team isn’t good enough defensively so Alvin has a lot work to do.

[CRAZY_4_NAZZY]

 

 

I hope this puts to bed that stupid rumor that Frank Seravelli, Sat Shah promoted yesterday. The team wants to get this done as does Bo's camp. It will take time, but the consensus is that all parties involved want to get this done quick so that the rumors and speculation won't follow Bo or the team this season. As I said yesterday and a few weeks ago, I'm not worried about this negotiation, both sides want this done and there is a level of urgency to it, no one wants another JT MIller situation to linger again for another player.

 

Frank Seravelli even reported that talks had gotten "contentious/bitter" between the two sides. Outside media people like Friedman, Servalli etc are showing they don't know zilch about whats happening on the west coast, and that the Canucks management are doing a great job to keep information in house.

[Mustard Tiger]

45 minutes ago, VegasCanuck said:

6.5 would be low, I'm hoping that we can land him around 6.9 on 8 year deal.

 

You won't find another guy on the open market with his skillset. In free agency, he's about 7.5 - 7.75, maybe as high as 8.

 

The amount of times our captian has skated away from on ice drama... I'm not paying him top dollar for that. Team friendly or trade imo

[Mustard Tiger]

23 minutes ago, Scottydzik said:

He won’t come under 7. So either Alvin needs put his money where his mouth is and get work fixing our D well paying top dollars for our centres or trade him to fix our d. It has to be done before season we can’t run risk of losing him or the distraction on the team. Either way this team isn’t good enough defensively so Alvin has a lot work to do.

Why even try to point the finger about fixing the D? The costs for any age dman is soo far out of our price range we would be taking a massive hit in one area for a slight gain in another.

 

Zero rush. The "rush" can begin in 2 years when all the dead weight falls off for free 

[VegasCanuck]

56 minutes ago, Scottydzik said:

He won’t come under 7. So either Alvin needs put his money where his mouth is and get work fixing our D well paying top dollars for our centres or trade him to fix our d. It has to be done before season we can’t run risk of losing him or the distraction on the team. Either way this team isn’t good enough defensively so Alvin has a lot work to do.

My guess is, this management group is really good at keeping things out of the media and Horvat signing will come out of nowhere, like Miller's signing did.

 

[VegasCanuck]

34 minutes ago, Mustard Tiger said:

The amount of times our captian has skated away from on ice drama... I'm not paying him top dollar for that. Team friendly or trade imo

Let me get this straight, you want the captain of the team engaging in on-ice drama, instead of keeping calm, which is what wins games???

[EddieVedder]

1 hour ago, IBatch said:

Douche bags.   If we want to track Horvat's history, he was actually lucky to play as an 18 year old.   He got the job  because he was good at face offs, and because that team was already on the downhill slope.  If he came in a few years earlier, Horvat might  of had to wait.

 

I don't think Horvat is a line driver like Miller and EP.   Sure he will do better with better wingers ... and sure aside from your favourite player and half a season with Bear, Horvat hasn't got more then 60 points.    A lot of his goals came on the PP the second half, i don't think we can or should be pencilling him in as a perrenial 30 goal scorer yet.  But awfully close.   

 

Wouldn't say he's a first line center on a lot of teams either.   Maybe 4-5...More then a few but not by much.    If we go there, then we also have to look at teams with two centers ahead of Horvat.   Draisatl.  EP or Miller.   Crosby and Malkin etc etc etc etc.   And then Horvat moves down the list quickly ... well sure he's better then McAan in Seattle lol.    But not where you might expect him to be.   
 

Horvat isn't really a play driver.   He does a lot for us absolutely.   And gets his points (like Brock, a lot on the PP, unlike Brock he's not going to hurt you 5 x 5). 

 

And because he's there the rest of the middle six and up, is that much better.   I don't see Horvat as a PPG a player other then maybe one outside year during his prime years ... which he's already in.   

 

Too me he's in the Brayden Schenn territory plus a bit.   

All he did was drive play in the latter half of last year.  

Miller wasnt a play driver until he came to Vancouver. 

You put Horvat in a position to create offense, and he proves he can. 

[Scottydzik]

1 hour ago, Mustard Tiger said:

Why even try to point the finger about fixing the D? The costs for any age dman is soo far out of our price range we would be taking a massive hit in one area for a slight gain in another.

 

Zero rush. The "rush" can begin in 2 years when all the dead weight falls off for free 

Like I’ve suggested multiple times the offseason plan should of been to fix our d First. He’s done absolutely nothing to fix it and should be held accountable if your telling me 2023 2nd or 3rd Garland Hoglander can’t fetch a top 4 D your crazy. He cleared zero cap space a guy like Jan Rutta would of been low risk high reward signing. 

[SID.IS.SID.ME.IS.ME]

Have to laugh a bit at media/social media getting in a tizzy over the club’s initial offer rumoured to have been at an AAV starting with a 5.

 

With Bo currently sitting at 5.5M, something in the 5.5-6M range would be a sensible starting point for negotiations.

 

Especially since odds are his production from age 28-36 is going to be lower than whatever his totals end up being from age 20-28 (ie: after this season). And certainly his analytics should be expected to drop (in terms of the “goals above replacement” type metrics), as he moves from his 20’s into his 30’s.

 

Of course, between an increasing cap, and recent market shifts around player comparables, Bo should expect to see a decent raise. But I can easily understand the club hoping to finish negotiations with a settlement somewhere in the mid 6s, and being leery of going to 7M or higher on AAV, especially longterm, given the age of the player.

 

They need to take a posture where something in the price range they’re hoping to finish at still looks like a compromise and the club “coming up.” That requires an opening offer starting with a 5. And they also need to at least feint the appearance (even if they’re ultimately open it) that any 7M+ demands are a complete no-go and leaves them so far apart in negotiations than it could force them on the path toward a trade (and then hope Bo’s loyalty clicks in and his side blinks).

[Nuxfanabroad]

Bo's been a good trooper, & dependable leader..said before, does remind me of Trevor in many ways

 

Would prob go as high as his playing number..#53. 53 mill, over 8 yrs. If he wanted more, then the trade market is open.

 

You can't plug every hole with this cap system. Our D is questionable, due to factors like our current C-depth. It's always a vibe of robbing Peter to pay Paul.

[DeNiro]

1 minute ago, Nuxfanabroad said:

Bo's been a good trooper, & dependable leader..said before, does remind me of Trevor in many ways

 

Would prob go as high as his playing number..#53. 53 mill, over 8 yrs. If he wanted more, then the trade market is open.

 

You can't plug every hole with this cap system. Our D is questionable, due to factors like our current C-depth. It's always a vibe of robbing Peter to pay Paul.

I see Miller as a winger in the next few years as age catches up to him.

 

Saying we have center depth now doesn’t mean it will stay that way. 
 

We need to keep Bo as our second line center.

 

Miller Petey Podz

Garland Horvat Boeser

 

That’s how I see our real depth.