[Discussion] Time for JR to make his first big move (Boeser)

[Elias Pettersson]

8 minutes ago, Scottydzik said:

I have took a look at roster and kappo laf hunt goodrow have gave them not much on wing department they could easily slide both those guys in there top 6 panarin krieder are there only reliable wingers

Chytil is more suited as a left winger than a centre, so with a Miller trade Chytil would be playing the wing.  Goodrow is having a solid year.  Kakko and Lafreniere may do better with Miller as their centre.  That's the line I would put together and play Strome as the 3C with Chytil and Goodrow.

 

Kreider        Zibanejad    Panarin

Lafreniere    Miller           Kakko

Chytil           Strome       Goodrow

 

 

Edited January 22, 2022 by Elias Pettersson

[J-P]

Personally I think we will move both Miller and Boeser and I know that's what I'd do if I was JR.

 

Too good of a return on an older player regarding Miller to pass up, and for Boeser he's a good player but no matter what the stats says he's complementary only and not worth 7-8 mil on a contender.

[aGENT]

3 minutes ago, Scottydzik said:

100 percent it does if we re up boeser for 7 million he’s gonna want we are not getting back Miller and horvat which is big trouble for this organization 

Nope one has little to do with the other, short of peripheral cap concerns. Personally, I'd move Miller regardless. It sounds like Rutherford (correctly IMO) has identified +/- 2-7 years from now as our young core's window. With Pettersson and Hughes in the meat of their primes.

 

EVERYTHING should be focused on making us as deep and competitive as possible in that window. A declining, depreciating, mid 30's, and $8m+ Miller does not. Sell high, multiply assets, and build for the contention window IMO.

 

Boeser, on the other hand, IS the right age to contribute to that window. His only real question is his skating. Rutherford will have to make a call on whether he thinks a not

-fast Boeser is best to retain, or move for other (faster) pieces.

 

Again, moving one does not preclude also moving the other. Separate discussions.

[Me_]

4 hours ago, NHL97OneTimer said:

You're kidding, right?!!!  Boeser has size but look how many hits he throws.  It irritates me every time he pulls up when he should throw the hit.  He has 15 hits!!!!  Podz has over triple that with 2/3 the ice time.  And don't even get me going with speed.  Boeser is not molasses slow but he's not $8M/yr fast neither.  Nowhere close.  How many times have you seen Boeser use his speed and size to create a play on his own?  A lot less than guys like Bo, Miller, Petey and Huggy.  

 

Brock at $5.5M/yr would be perfect.  $6.5M/yr if he's hitting 30 goals/yr reliably and has some intangibles.  That won't happen though so our hand should be forced.

I think we should acquire a whole bunch of waiver wire players to replace our stars.

 

That way we’re sure to never run into financial problems with the players again. What’s the point of having stars on the team if you can’t keep them because they cost too much right?

 

From now on, no one with more than 10 goals in their career.

 

Edited January 23, 2022 by Me_

[Elias Pettersson]

8 minutes ago, Scottydzik said:

I wish we could get that but I don’t think they give up schiender and kravtsov and there 1st in deal unless we did include Pearson 

I don't think they want Pearson and his contract, but Motte might interest them.  A bigger deal involving both Miller and Motte could be on the table.  If the Rangers want to add another pick or prospect to that deal I would throw in Motte as well.

[Elias Pettersson]

To NY Rangers:

 

JT Miller

Tyler Motte

 

To Vancouver:

 

Braden Schneider

Vitali Kravtsov

Nils Lundkvist

2022 1st round pick

 

I'd be all over that deal...

[aGENT]

6 minutes ago, hammertime said:

If JR is true to his word about being contenders in 2 years I see no reason why Miller would be past his best before. IMO he's got 4-5 peak years left. 

Because, yes, we probably get about 2 years of our core's window with him helping... But then it's declining, depreciating asset with monster cap hit (anchor) for the latter half of our window.

 

Love Miller, wish he was younger. Just doesn't fit the window.

 

5 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

Chytil is more suited as a left winger than a centre, so with a Miller trade Chytil would be playing the wing.  Goodrow is having a solid year.  Kakko and Lafreniere may do better with Miller as their centre.  That's the line I would put together and play Strome as the 3C with Chytil and Goodrow.

 

Kreider        Zibanejad    Panarin

Lafreniere    Miller           Kakko

Chytil           Strome       Goodrow

 

 

Still have to think they'd need to send Chytil (and his cap) back this way in any deal with us. And yes, long term he likely plays LW, but he should be able to fill in at 3C here for the rest of this season, until we sign one of Paul/Tierney/Sturm this summer.

[hammertime]

1 minute ago, aGENT said:

Because, yes, we probably get about 2 years of our core's window with him helping... But then it's declining, depreciating asset with monster cap hit (anchor) for the latter half of our window.

 

Love Miller, wish he was younger. Just doesn't fit the window.

 

Still have to think they'd need to send Chytil (and his cap) back this way in any deal with us. And yes, long term he likely plays LW, but he should be able to fill in at 3C here for the rest of this season, until we sign one of Paul/Tierney/Sturm this summer.

Sure I guess thats for JR to do his homework on. IMO if we can sign him at 8m x 5 years he will be 34 when it expires I have zero issue with that. I guess it all depends on what Millers contract expectations are and if he even wants to stay here. 

 

By this same token if JR deals him for picks who won't be ready for 3 years you may as well say bye bye to Bo while youre at it.  

[aGENT]

3 minutes ago, hammertime said:

Sure I guess thats for JR to do his homework on. IMO if we can sign him at 8m x 5 years he will be 34 when it expires I have zero issue with that. I guess it all depends on what Millers contract expectations are and if he even wants to stay here. 

 

By this same token if JR deals him for picks who won't be ready for 3 years you may as well say bye bye to Bo while youre at it.  

I don't think there's any chance we're moving him for JUST picks. So fret not.

 

Rutherford will be looking for something like the Chytil, Schneider and a 1st (+/-) package being bandied about.

 

Add one of Paul/Tierney/Sturm this summer and there's every possibility we're actually a better team than we were with Miller.

Edited January 22, 2022 by aGENT

[Scottydzik]

15 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

To NY Rangers:

 

JT Miller

Tyler Motte

 

To Vancouver:

 

Braden Schneider

Vitali Kravtsov

Nils Lundkvist

2022 1st round pick

 

I'd be all over that deal...

Ya me too a guy can dream of that lol

[KyGuy123]

I’d actually look at moving both Miller and Boeser. Miller because I think when his deal is up he will be gone, can also get a great haul for him. Boeser because I feel we need to get faster and rebuild the Defence. Both guys are up for huge raises and our team could use some flexibility with the cap. We’d probably be able to attain quite a few picks and use them to draft or trade for certain pieces. 
 

[hammertime]

2 minutes ago, aGENT said:

I don't think there's any chance we're moving him for JUST picks. So fret not.

 

Rutherford will be looking for something like the Chytil, Schneider and a 1st (+/-) package being bandied about.

 

Add one of Paul/Tierney/Sturm this summer and there's every possibility we're actually a better team than we were with Miller.

I think You would really have to believe Pete can handle the role of 1c. But sure I'll play along. I think you have to be really careful moving Miller players like him are unicorns.  

[on the cycle]

2 hours ago, Alflives said:

Boeser is great along the walls.  He’s a fabulous young play, who can score clean, which is a rare breed.  We will keep him.  Miller, Motte, and Dickinson will be moved.  

Agreed. I love Miller and wish he could stay but we can't afford to keep him and trading him would go a long way towards fixing our blueline with the return you could get for him.

 

Miller is having an amazing year where as Boeser isn't so will definitely help get Boeser on a more team friendly deal than Miller.

[J.I.A.H.N]

1 hour ago, NHL97OneTimer said:

So you'd rather pay ~$8M/yr hoping that Boeser hasn't peaked yet than keep Miller at $5.25M/yr who is actually peaking right now?  I think that only holds if you're seeing a huge upswing in Brock......we are not.  IMO Brock has definitely peaked already.  I'm basing that on the fact that his conditioning has not improved over the years, nor has his versatility.

I think you have to take some time and really get to understand what a QO is...............

 

A QO is based on the Minimum 1 year contract a player can get. What does to the team, is force the team to make a multiple year offer, which will lower the cap hit.........

 

So, in Boeser's case..................his QO for 1 year is 8.00 million dollars, and that is also his Cap hit

 

but

 

If Boeser was to sign a longer term contract, it could look something like this....................on a 5 year contract for example (easy math)

 

1st year......8.00 Million

2nd year.....6.00 Million

3rd year......6.00 Million

4th year......6.00 Million

5th year......7.00 Million (ends up with him as a UFA at the end), which is why teams want to sign good players to 8 year contracts if possible.

 

His cap hit is then 33 Million over 5 years or an average cap hit of 6.6 Million.........you see how that works?

 

I do not think Brock thinks he is at Petey's or Quinn's level of play or pay, and I think that will bear out, next year. See how it works?

 

And I am not even sure on a multi-year deal, that the QO has to even be there.......so it could be another number in the first year.........

 

Maybe @mll could clarify that.

[on the cycle]

26 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

To NY Rangers:

 

JT Miller

Tyler Motte

 

To Vancouver:

 

Braden Schneider

Vitali Kravtsov

Nils Lundkvist

2022 1st round pick

 

I'd be all over that deal...

I don't know if you'd be able to get that much for Miller but it's pretty close to the return you'd expect. Although with Motte as a good bottom 6 guy sweetening it not a bad proposal.

[on the cycle]

1 minute ago, J.I.A.H.N said:

I think you have to take some time and really get to understand what a QO is...............

 

A QO is based on the Minimum 1 year contract a player can get. What does to the team, is force the team to make a multiple year offer, which will lower the cap hit.........

 

So, in Boeser's case..................his QO for 1 year is 8.00 million dollars, and that is also his Cap hit

 

but

 

If Boeser was to sign a longer term contract, it could look something like this....................on a 5 year contract for example (easy math)

 

1st year......8.00 Million

2nd year.....6.00 Million

3rd year......6.00 Million

4th year......6.00 Million

5th year......7.00 Million (ends up with him as a UFA at the end), which is why teams want to sign good players to 8 year contracts if possible.

 

His cap hit is then 33 Million over 5 years or an average cap hit of 6.6 Million.........you see how that works?

 

I do not think Brock thinks he is at Petey's or Quinn's level of play or pay, and I think that will bear out, next year. See how it works?

 

And I am not even sure on a multi-year deal, that the QO has to even be there.......so it could be another number in the first year.........

 

Maybe @mll could clarify that.

They can always take Boeser to arbitration if they think the QO is too high. His stats this year wouldn't warrant his QO anyway so would be a pretty safe gamble but would likely only get you a 2-3 year "prove it" deal.

[Nucker 67]

40 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

To NY Rangers:

 

JT Miller

Tyler Motte

 

To Vancouver:

 

Braden Schneider

Vitali Kravtsov

Nils Lundkvist

2022 1st round pick

 

I'd be all over that deal...

Nice return! Although, I wouldn't mind getting one of Kakko or Lafreniere somehow.

 

Rangers would be all in to win bringing in Miller and Motte. With their goaltending, Fox and their forward group, they'd be tough to beat.

 

I'd love to know the types of deals (calls) JR is getting from other teams.   

[MeanSeanBean]

2 hours ago, NHL97OneTimer said:

So you'd rather pay ~$8M/yr hoping that Boeser hasn't peaked yet than keep Miller at $5.25M/yr who is actually peaking right now?  I think that only holds if you're seeing a huge upswing in Brock......we are not.  IMO Brock has definitely peaked already.  I'm basing that on the fact that his conditioning has not improved over the years, nor has his versatility.

Miller is only that much for another year and a half. After that he will be asking for Boeser money at minimum. Could easily argue his value to be higher and asking for more. So to me, the real question is would I rather have Boeser + the return for peak value Miller or Miller + the mid level return of Boeser in 4 years. Miller being in his early 30s, likely trending down, Boeser being smack dab in his prime all with having better prospects or picks to work with because of Miller's value right now.

 

Yes. I would 100% take Boeser plus Miller's return.

Edited January 22, 2022 by Shayster007

[MeanSeanBean]

2 hours ago, grandmaster said:

Agree to disagree. I think it would be terrible to move Miller as opposed to Brock. Miller is far more valuable, leaps and bounds ahead of Brock’s “glances” of dominance.

Right now, agreed. We're not winning a cup this year, not next year. I would rather have Boeser and what Miller would return when our team hits it's peak then an aging Miller and what Boeser would return.

[aGENT]

42 minutes ago, hammertime said:

I think You would really have to believe Pete can handle the role of 1c. But sure I'll play along. I think you have to be really careful moving Miller players like him are unicorns.  

Meh, Horvat can 1C (or they can be 1a and 1b... However you want to look at it), until Petey gets closer to his prime and takes over. Not worried about that. Supplement them with a good 3C like Paul/Sturm/Tierney (which with Chytil should roughly equal out to Miller's current hit, and without the long term commitment) and keep on rolling.

 

As for Miller, absolutely. You don't "replace" Miller. But if he doesn't fit in your window, he doesn't fit. Trying to shoehorn him in just sets us back long term, in that window. We need players like Miller, just not likely to be Miller specifically.