[Discussion] Do You Have the Stomach For a Rebuild?

[Warhippy]

1 hour ago, canuck73_3 said:

We’re the second youngest team in the league, not sure how much more committed to getting younger you want?  

It's not about getting younger.  We're the the 5th youngest team after the Bear pick up by the way BUT have 30 rostered players compared to a league average of 24.6.

 

This is/was a discussion about teams that sucked for a decade and turned their fortunes around; where as in our decade we've never committed to a rebuild and are instead floundering.  Over the last 10 years we hold one of the worst records in the entire league

 

Our getting younger I might add; was by and large not done by our own merits.  Pettersson, Hughes, Podkolzin, Horvat, Hoglander and Demko are our only drafted picks over the last decade to be on and stay on the team.  That's 6 players.  Our youth; again was not done by rebuilding, but "retooling" 

Edited October 29, 2022 by Warhippy

[JM_]

51 minutes ago, Warhippy said:

It's not about getting younger.  We're the th youngest team after the Bear pick up by the way BUT have 30 rostered players compared to a league average of 24.6.

 

This is/was a discussion about teams that sucked for a decade and turned their fortunes around; where as in our decade we've never committed to a rebuild and are instead floundering.  Over the last 10 years we hold one of the worst records in the entire league

 

Our getting younger I might add; was by and large not done by our own merits.  Pettersson, Hughes, Podkolzin, Horvat, Hoglander and Demko are our only drafted picks over the last decade to be on and stay on the team.  That's 5 players.  Our youth; again was not done by rebuilding, but "retooling" 

its 6 actually, same as Calgary...

 

[Warhippy]

16 minutes ago, JM_ said:

its 6 actually, same as Calgary...

 

6 it is.

 

Regardless, my statement stands

[JM_]

7 minutes ago, Warhippy said:

6 it is.

 

Regardless, my statement stands

it does, we have a lot to clean up. 

 

If you can view 2 seasons from now (including the current one) as being the start of the real competitive window, then there's time to get the most out of this group. 

 

[Warhippy]

1 minute ago, JM_ said:

it does, we have a lot to clean up. 

 

If you can view 2 seasons from now (including the current one) as being the start of the real competitive window, then there's time to get the most out of this group. 

 

We peaked last year imo.

 

That's the purpose of this thread.  management and ownership think we fans don't have the stomach for it, but we've been avoiding it while doing it the wrong way since 2012

 

We got the most out of this group as we could last year.

[JM_]

3 minutes ago, Warhippy said:

We peaked last year imo.

 

That's the purpose of this thread.  management and ownership think we fans don't have the stomach for it, but we've been avoiding it while doing it the wrong way since 2012

 

We got the most out of this group as we could last year.

I mean I see this two ways. I am open to a real tear down and commitment to trying things the way you've suggested.

 

But I also see what mgmt is actually doing and do think there's a path forward for a really good team. 

 

I don't agree that we got the most tho, we didn't have Kuzmenko or Mikheyev, e.g. who seem to be forming one hell of a line with Petey. 

 

 

Edited October 29, 2022 by JM_

[NewbieCanuckFan]

On 10/28/2022 at 1:04 PM, Baggins said:

We have some pretty good forward prospects.

Damn, I might have to re-evaluate my opinion of Woo if he keeps it up in Abby:  Never can have enough too many blueliners (he seems to be playing with some real purpose this season so far - good to see):

 

 

 

Perhaps I was a bit too premature on my opinion of what we have on the farm.

 

Edited October 29, 2022 by NewbieCanuckFan

[JM_]

9 minutes ago, NewbieCanuckFan said:

Damn, I might have to re-evaluate my opinion of Woo if he keeps it up in Abby:  Never can have enough too many blueliners (he seems to be playing with some real purpose this season so far - good to see):

 

 

 

Perhaps I was a bit too premature on my opinion of what we have on the farm.

 

if Bear can be a solid 2nd pair RD, and Woo can take over from Schenn on 3RD, that makes things simpler. 

[Coconuts]

2 hours ago, JM_ said:

I mean I see this two ways. I am open to a real tear down and commitment to trying things the way you've suggested.

 

But I also see what mgmt is actually doing and do think there's a path forward for a really good team. 

 

I don't agree that we got the most tho, we didn't have Kuzmenko or Mikheyev, e.g. who seem to be forming one hell of a line with Petey. 

 

 

That's a wildcard though, he's a UFA at the end of the season. If he continues to have success there's a chance he prices himself out of our range, Russians here or not. 

 

If we're out of it leading up to the deadline and he's continued to perform the way he has I'd be using him as trade bait. Could probably get a 1st for a player with his cap hit if he produces at a top 6 level. 

[JM_]

17 minutes ago, Coconuts said:

That's a wildcard though, he's a UFA at the end of the season. If he continues to have success there's a chance he prices himself out of our range, Russians here or not. 

 

If we're out of it leading up to the deadline and he's continued to perform the way he has I'd be using him as trade bait. Could probably get a 1st for a player with his cap hit if he produces at a top 6 level. 

yea for sure he is an unknown. I'd be fine with this as long as they made a legit attempt to re-sign him to a reasonable deal first. 

[Coconuts]

4 minutes ago, JM_ said:

yea for sure he is an unknown. I'd be fine with this as long as they made a legit attempt to re-sign him to a reasonable deal first. 

That's a toughe, we'll see what happens with Boeser. We're still too cap heavy up top and Bo hasn't been re-signed. Continuing to throw larger chunks of cap space at our forward group when we should be reallocating some of it to upgrading our top 4 if the idea is to compete rather than rebuild is shortsighted and nonsensical. 

 

I think I'd be more inclined to simply take the 1st and go into a deep draft with a couple 1st round picks. It'd be found money. 

[Coconuts]

Lot of time between now and then though, and there's no guarantee he keeps this up. But with Miller's 8M kicking in and the Horvat bit still looming I'd be reluctant to throw even more cap space at our forward group going forward. 

[Solinar]

22 hours ago, J.I.A.H.N said:

@Solinar

 

Well, in the end, there is not one person on here that does not just want a winning team. The sooner the better! It does not matter how we get there................just get there!

 

Whether its the scorched earth process, which is 3 to 5 years, or the fingers crossed someone develops......who knows? Or something else, I do not truly care, as long as we get there!

 

I just do not see how we keep all our forwards and reduce cap, and get 1 or 2 RHD to complete our team.................IMO, there just is not a fix, unless you use something?????

 

Of course you could use picks to solve your problem, but that only postpones the rebuild, down the road...............until our older vets start aging out, which then costs you more picks to fix, because you have no assets you can use other than.

 

Just think of this.............Schmidt was trade to Vancouver for a 3rd, because they needed cap, Vancouver in turn did the very same thing with him. IMO Schmidt had skill and look what had to happen..............basically they gave him away. So how does that make you a contender? It doesn't!

 

So, anyway you shake it, its difficult, and time consuming. 

 

Sometimes, you just have to wipe the slate clean and start over, sometimes not.................I do not have the answer

 

 

Oh man, I had forgotten Schmidt!!  What a waste, as he'd be a total stud on our backend now with the coaching we have in place.  Frustrating part of being where we're at with the cap situation we have.  We should be picking at other teams and feasting on their lack of ability to work in a constrained cap era, but instead, we said, hey, solidarity, we're here too, but not good!  

  I do like the Ethan Bear trade, do think he'll be a good addition.  Time will tell whether or not that move is good for the long term, or just more short term plastering over the cracks, caused by cracks in the foundation.  Would have liked to grab one of Tampa's spare rhd to kind of see what happens.  I really hope that the TDL and next summer will see some player movement as the cap goes up.  

  I'm not as down on the team as some others.  There are some good pieces, but I'm torn between just consistently being a mediocre team, and tearing it down and building up a long term healthy franchise, built from proper drafting and player development that is always able to field a next man up mentality.  Short term me goes, plaster over those cracks!  I want to see us struggle to the playoff line.  Long term me goes, build this franchise up properly, and we'll have years of success.  

  JR did manage to plaster over those cracks and kick that can down the road in Pittsburgh.  He rolled with a solid forward lineup and serviceable if underwhelming D- core with a stud back there.  I kind of see that picture being put in place here, while they revamp player development.  So, working on the now, and with an eye to the future.  It is just so hard to trust them after decades of...words but not solid actions.  I have tickets to the LA and Vegas games next month, so here's hoping I have something to watch, as I'm betting my money on success?

[J.I.A.H.N]

7 hours ago, Warhippy said:

We peaked last year imo.

 

That's the purpose of this thread.  management and ownership think we fans don't have the stomach for it, but we've been avoiding it while doing it the wrong way since 2012

 

We got the most out of this group as we could last year.

Hey Hippy

 

I got a legit question for you............

 

"IF" we were to trade Pettersson for an equivalent RHD..............do you think that improves us enough to win for 4 or 5 years?

 

Just a hypothetical

[JM_]

14 hours ago, Coconuts said:

That's a toughe, we'll see what happens with Boeser. We're still too cap heavy up top and Bo hasn't been re-signed. Continuing to throw larger chunks of cap space at our forward group when we should be reallocating some of it to upgrading our top 4 if the idea is to compete rather than rebuild is shortsighted and nonsensical. 

 

I think I'd be more inclined to simply take the 1st and go into a deep draft with a couple 1st round picks. It'd be found money. 

I think that allocation will come from Boeser being traded. If Kuz looks like a legit top 6 and comes in around where Mikheyev is (i.e. under Boesers deal) I think we need to do that. 

 

Thats assuming of course that we can move Boeser without taking a salary back. 

[DrJockitch]

Benning came in to a team with no prospect depth because the team had been making a championship run and appropriately traded pics and drafted badly when had them. 
‘Allvin comes into a team with no prospect depth because of a run for mediocrity and inappropriately traded away pics and drafted badly when had them. 
‘We have been the 5th worst team in league over last decade and only Tampa and Boston have drafted less in first and second rounds. 
‘We are the Sundin Leafs. Always think we are better than we are and never getting closer to championship level. 
I do think at this point there is one common denominator but it is really hard to fire the owner. FA has been very generous and willing to spend to the cap every year and so his GMs spend to the cap every year to try and preserve their jobs. Need to cut the budget down and force a rebuild or weaponize your willingness to spend, not just pay your way to mediocrity for another decade. 

[JM_]

11 minutes ago, DrJockitch said:

Benning came in to a team with no prospect depth because the team had been making a championship run and appropriately traded pics and drafted badly when had them. 
‘Allvin comes into a team with no prospect depth because of a run for mediocrity and inappropriately traded away pics and drafted badly when had them. 
‘We have been the 5th worst team in league over last decade and only Tampa and Boston have drafted less in first and second rounds. 
‘We are the Sundin Leafs. Always think we are better than we are and never getting closer to championship level. 
I do think at this point there is one common denominator but it is really hard to fire the owner. FA has been very generous and willing to spend to the cap every year and so his GMs spend to the cap every year to try and preserve their jobs. Need to cut the budget down and force a rebuild or weaponize your willingness to spend, not just pay your way to mediocrity for another decade. 

we can't do anything about the decisions over the Benning era, they are what they are.

 

Unless this team takes another nose dive over the next few weeks, a tear down rebuild is not coming. 

 

 

[Warhippy]

10 hours ago, J.I.A.H.N said:

Hey Hippy

 

I got a legit question for you............

 

"IF" we were to trade Pettersson for an equivalent RHD..............do you think that improves us enough to win for 4 or 5 years?

 

Just a hypothetical

Nope.

 

Because what then?

 

Now we need a quality point producing centre to replace him.

 

That's our issue, we don't have the depth to be subtracting from one area to be improving another without leaving that massive hole.  It's like having 3 tires on your car and a donut and just rotating all of them again and again and again, until you get that 4th tire plus a spare you're always gonna be behind

[MaxVerstappen33]

1 hour ago, DrJockitch said:

‘Allvin comes into a team with no prospect depth because of a run for mediocrity and inappropriately traded away pics and drafted badly when had them. 
‘

This is nonsense. The reason we don't have a lot on the farm team now is because they are all on the NHL team. Petey, Hughs, Podz Hog, Rath, Demko ect. 

 

And you are trying to pass this off as John Ferguson Jr's Leafs. 

 

Bennings error was that he still fought the cycle during the get younger years by spending picks that he should have just kept. The Sudin Leafs were probably one of the oldest teams in the league and they had literally nothing. We are the 5th-6th youngest and have our competitive prospects on the team already

Edited October 30, 2022 by MaxVerstappen33

[DrJockitch]

22 minutes ago, MaxVerstappen33 said:

This is nonsense. The reason we don't have a lot on the farm team now is because they are all on the NHL team. Petey, Hughs, Podz Hog, Rath, Demko ect. 

 

And you are trying to pass this off as John Ferguson Jr's Leafs. 

 

Bennings error was that he still fought the cycle during the get younger years by spending picks that he should have just kept. The Sudin Leafs were probably one of the oldest teams in the league and they had literally nothing. We are the 5th-6th youngest and have our competitive prospects on the team already

A team that is not good enough to contend perennially but tries to add one more UFA piece to push us into scraping into the playoffs where “anything can happen”. 
sure sounds like the JFJ Leafs to me.