[Discussion] Do You Have the Stomach For a Rebuild?

[aGENT]

2 hours ago, ToTellTheTruth said:

Talking about Pettersson.

 

I can't find any youth. I don't know your criteria for youth. Meaningful youth, guys that are future scorers, impact players? Or Roster guys? There are quite a few AHL guys on the team, them?

 

Haven't most of these guys been called "youth" for 5 or 6 years now? Or Longer?

 

When looking at decade long playoff teams many had youth, but that youth was winning in the playoffs and regular season games when they were in their very early 20's like 20 yrs old, not 24 yrs old, by that time Crosby, Toews and even Ovy's teams had already won a cup or played for more than one, maybe not Ovy, his team kept running into Pittsburgh.

 

IF Pettersson, through his agent, indicates he wants out he the rest of the league would know as soon as he is being shopped unless management does it earlier and for a rebuild reason, to get many draft picks or to move up in the draft but the team would have to get that message out there, that they are re-"building" for the future. Petey would easily get a move up AND an additional 1rst pick and prospect. That could mean the Canucks have 4 first round picks over two years, their own and the other teams.

My "criteria" would be guys currently under 28 and mostly guys below 25. We can retain a few guys in between that range like Horvat (if he even wants to stick around) or Kuz/Mik if management views them as guys to win with. Heck, I'd retain Schenn too if we can, as a solid veteran presence/leader on the cheap for another couple years.

 

Otherwise...Pettersson, Hughes, Demko, Podkolzin, Hoglander, Aman, Rathbone (if we don't trade him, which we should/should have IMO) That are on the team currently.

 

Whichever of Lekkermaki, Klimovich, Forsell, Karlsson, McDonaugh, Bains, Lockhart, Lockwood, Focht, Jurmo, EP 2.0D, Truscott, Persson, Woo, Silovs, Koskenvuo etc end up making it the next couple years.

 

Guys like Bear, Dermott, Burroughs, Studnicka can probably stick around as depth D/F (or be recycled in to futures).

 

From there, ideally we add a top 5 pick this draft and add some additional players/picks by moving of Miller, Garland and Horvat (if he understandably wants out) and eventually probably Boeser (though I'd like to see us/him regain some value first and perhaps ensure McDonaugh, Kuz etc are under contract first).

 

We should be able to add additional futures (though likely more mid range) with moving out Myers and Pearson this summer/'24 TDL.

 

All of which should equate to a likely top 10'ish pick again next year (as well as additional picks later on) for additional "youth".

 

We should also be focusing on undrafted college/euro UFA's and RFA's other teams may struggle to retain (like we should have done with Marino this summer).

 

And FWIW, most contending teams have rosters largely in the 26-32 range +/-. A couple generational guys like Crosby or Kane winning young are the exception, not the rule. Ovechkin didn't win until 33. Mackinnon was 26, Stamkos 30 and 31, O'Reilly 27/AP 28, Crosby again at 28 and 29....

 

And in a couple-few years we can focus on a couple key "prime aged" UFA's (and other trades then/in the interim) to flesh everything out.

Edited November 15, 2022 by aGENT

[NHL97OneTimer]

Finding a trade for Miller without taking on salary beyond this year is the key to this club moving forward.  I'm not concerned about their ability to manage the cap moving......so I would take a bag of broken sticks for Miller at this point if they can't get anything serious back, but it would sure be nice to get some picks.  I'm a Miller fan and see this as a low point for him.  I wanted to keep him on the team but I really didn't like the term of the deal and I don't see him as a player to have on the roster with a rebuild being imminent.

 

Brock is the next obvious person to drop.  If we can land some picks, that would be huge but he's not doing us any favours in terms of trade value at the moment.  Playing him in the position to succeed between now and the trade deadline is huge.

 

Garland I'm on the fence with.  I like him but if he would fetch a reasonable return in terms of picks, they have to take it.

 

Petey - don't want to lose him, but if he won't be a Canuck for the long haul despite the record or need to rebuild, then I'm more than fine with trading him.  I'd rather have someone on the team that bleeds blue and green and the reality is that he would fetch a lot and speed up the rebuild.  But my hope is that he commits to the city without holding it ransom.....then happy happy.

 

Demko - unless there's an injury that's not going to improve over the next few years, it's an easy decision to keep him and just let him rest more this year.

 

So now the guys that are pulling us down moving forward:

 

OEL - 4 more years left after this year which sounds horrible, but if we're relying on drafting D for a future contender, we're at least 4 years out anyway.  OEL won't complain and he'll likely provide some stability for the most part.  We can't afford to buy him out if it means the pain is extended beyond another 4 years.

 

Myers - often dumped on but he's been decent and hasn't complained, just not matching his salary.....similar to OEL.  Ride out one more year after this is also not an issue.

 

Pearson - same as above.  If we can get something for him, great.  if we can't, not a biggie with one more year left

 

Poolman - another target to move with two years left, but at $2.5M/yr, again not a big deal if we just want plugs and to rack up draft picks over the next couple of years.

 

Ferland, Virtanen and Holtby come off the books this year (~$6M/yr back)

 

So overall - we have some good assets to help with a rebuild and contract-wise a 4-5 year plan works well with our current roster in my opinion.  But getting value for Brock, Garland and hopefully Miller are the keys moving forward.  If we have to give Miller away, that's probably better than being on the hook for the next 7 years as many had predicted.

 

This week is hopefully when the plan starts to unfold.....

 

 

[DSVII]

The next moves will be telling whether management can stomach a rebuild. Or even a reset for one year.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if we do a meaningless hockey trade or futures for immediate help.

 

Please prove me wrong JR.

[MaxVerstappen33]

Thomas Drance keeps trying to one up himself on Canucks doom. Then he tries to come off as edgy with absolutely asinine solutions. 

 

He just told Mark Spector that he would be willing to give up Petterson to cap dump OEL. Mark Spector didn't even know what to say in reply. He just sighed. 

 

This is just ridiculous doom signalling nonsense. 

Edited November 20, 2022 by MaxVerstappen33

[Coconuts]

On 11/11/2022 at 9:33 PM, Wise Guy said:

The real question should be: 

 

Do You Have the Liver For a Rebuild?

Do folks have a liver for mediocrity?

[Russ]

Yes I want a rebuild.  We are bottom 10 every year for the last decade and we haven't even pretended to try and be in a rebuild

 

[Alflives]

6 minutes ago, Russ said:

Yes I want a rebuild.  We are bottom 10 every year for the last decade and we haven't even pretended to try and be in a rebuild

 

Talk to our owner.  He will not allow rebuilding moves.  

[Fred65]

Don't have the stomach, heck I dodn't have the time 

[Harold Drunken]

[TripleSedins]

I think there is a few issues with suggesting a retool or rebuild. 
 

The main issue I see is that they are in a tough position to make trades given their cap situation and the state of the contracts they currently have on the roster. They will not be on the upper hand in trade scenarios until they have cap flexibility. We've seen this is in the move made to rid themselves of the Dickinson contract. 

 

The Myers trade talk is a non-starter because of his 6 mil cap hit . Myers is the level we should expect "internal competition" to be at (making Myers an occasional scratch); you can't do this when he's being paid 6 Mil.

The organization lacks the confidence to make or consider big decisions about players who have actual value (trading of talent for appropriate "goodness of fit" players that fit their direct). Before a retool we need a clear direction which management fails to develop year after year. What is the plan, because management has made a poor job of making it transparent. 

 

[Harold Drunken]

15 hours ago, TripleSedins said:

I think there is a few issues with suggesting a retool or rebuild. 
 

The main issue I see is that they are in a tough position to make trades given their cap situation and the state of the contracts they currently have on the roster. They will not be on the upper hand in trade scenarios until they have cap flexibility. We've seen this is in the move made to rid themselves of the Dickinson contract. 

 

The Myers trade talk is a non-starter because of his 6 mil cap hit . Myers is the level we should expect "internal competition" to be at (making Myers an occasional scratch); you can't do this when he's being paid 6 Mil.

The organization lacks the confidence to make or consider big decisions about players who have actual value (trading of talent for appropriate "goodness of fit" players that fit their direct). Before a retool we need a clear direction which management fails to develop year after year. What is the plan, because management has made a poor job of making it transparent. 

 

Myers could be moved if some salary is retained, probably around $2m, considering he only has one year after this left on his contract that wouldn't be so bad. We would probably have to anyways as so many teams are cash strapped.  A playoff bound team would take a flyer on Myers if they had an injury or needed depth. 

[Nucker 67]

And please, don’t tell us Vancouver can’t handle a full-on rebuild. People said the same thing about the Toronto Maple Leafs before a strong and confident Brendan Shanahan was hired to do exactly that. After a couple of years of pain, the Leafs wound up with Mitch Marner and Auston Matthews 

 

Link to the article:  https://thehockeynews.com/news/proteau-vancouver-canucks-should-start-selling-and-rebuild

 

What the heck is this crap? ^^  A snippet from a The Hockey News article from yesterday. Of course, no mention of: you need to win the 1st overall pick to get a player like Matthews - and Bettman gifted them that right away.

 

I guess whoever wrote this article (Adam Proteau) really loves Shanny. No doubt a huge Leafs. 

[steviewonder20]

1 hour ago, NUCKER67 said:

And please, don’t tell us Vancouver can’t handle a full-on rebuild. People said the same thing about the Toronto Maple Leafs before a strong and confident Brendan Shanahan was hired to do exactly that. After a couple of years of pain, the Leafs wound up with Mitch Marner and Auston Matthews 

 

Link to the article:  https://thehockeynews.com/news/proteau-vancouver-canucks-should-start-selling-and-rebuild

 

What the heck is this crap? ^^  A snippet from a The Hockey News article from yesterday. Of course, no mention of: you need to win the 1st overall pick to get a player like Matthews - and Bettman gifted them that right away.

 

I guess whoever wrote this article (Adam Proteau) really loves Shanny. No doubt a huge Leafs. 

I don’t disagree with anything said in that article. Of course there is no guarantee of getting a generational talent, but this is the year to get what we can, dump who we can, and build up our picks and prospects. Another desperate attempt to get Aquaman some playoff revenue and a mid-range pick just continues the unbearable mediocrity of the past years. Ffs, management needs to do this properly: Bo, Myers, Garland and BB will bring us a good return.

[Nucker 67]

Just now, steviewonder20 said:

I don’t disagree with anything said in that article. Of course there is no guarantee of getting a generational talent, but this is the year to get what we can, dump who we can, and build up our picks and prospects. Another desperate attempt to get Aquaman some playoff revenue and a mid-range pick just continues the unbearable mediocrity of the past years. Ffs, management needs to do this properly: Bo, Myers, Garland and BB will bring us a good return.

I've seen Garland to BOS rumours, as Conor is currently building a new home in the Boston area where he's from. I wonder what the return would be, but I'm guessing not great. Garland hasn't had a very good season so far. 

 

 

[EP Phone Home]

You hear the majority of this fanbase begging for one yet you never hear it from ownership or the management. Different philosophy must be looked at instead of pretending we are a contender, the trust is gone and fans what a clear direction of where this franchise is headed. 

[ToTellTheTruth]

On 11/25/2022 at 9:11 AM, NUCKER67 said:

I've seen Garland to BOS rumours, as Conor is currently building a new home in the Boston area where he's from. I wonder what the return would be, but I'm guessing not great. Garland hasn't had a very good season so far. 

 

 

Anything is worth the cap space

[Intoewsables]

Rebuilding right now would be foolish. We have the best group of forwards in the entire league and one of the best goalies as well. We've had an unprecedented string of injuries and bad luck, but when it all balances out in our favour again, we'll be among the top of the league for sure. We should be looking to add to the team and help out the PK so we can get into the playoffs and win the Cup!

[AriGold]

2 minutes ago, Intoewsables said:

Rebuilding right now would be foolish. We have the best group of forwards in the entire league and one of the best goalies as well. We've had an unprecedented string of injuries and bad luck, but when it all balances out in our favour again, we'll be among the top of the league for sure. We should be looking to add to the team and help out the PK so we can get into the playoffs and win the Cup!

 

[Warhippy]

Hey this came back, yay.

 

I still wanna do it.

 

Demko gone for 6+ weeks and off his game.  No defense or depth.  No cap space to fix it.  Horvat on the block and Kuzmenko being found money with that ridiculously cheap contract.

 

Cash in!!!!

[MaxVerstappen33]

Rebuild confirmed he says. Not so fast. I guess it's possible ... Maybe ?