Is our core five good enough to win?

[alt kilgore]

On 12/25/2022 at 7:56 PM, Angry Goose said:

Cup? No-you would need an elite supporting cast to do that.  

 

Can they re jig the roster to make it a (decent) playoff team? Possible

 

 

I say YES too.

Its a matter of degrees and critical mass.  There is a tipping point where there is an opening to be a decent playoff team....which means there is a shot at the Cup at least....or 8 more years of misery, where Petey, Hughes, Miller, Bo are gone or have seen their best days. And we just have faith in some unknown future star(s).

 

Look JB screwed up big time. In the worst possible ways. ie. trading away picks and prospects and draining the farm, signing washed up vets for term and topping up the cap, then trying to correct his last mistakes by adding even worse anchors, and still missing the playoffs.  OEL trade was one of the worst in our history, and cost us a huge handicap for the next 5 seasons, all for one year of cap savings that is now over. Garland is fine but not worth the cap for what he brings either.  Plus gave them a top ten pick who turned out to be Dylan Guenther, who is captaining our World Junior team. That move, and cap anchor, will cost us Bo Horvat. JB, the gifts keep coming.

 

But its a matter of degrees, and critical mass. With JB's accidental rebuild, Petey and Hughes fell in our lap.  Demko was a steal. JR could have gone full blow up but also saw the glass was slightly over half full, and saw possibilities. So he made some moves the other way. Some bad...signing Boeser (in hindsight), trading Dicky and a second rounder for Stillman. But more good moves. Signing Miller which I still like. His contract is not unreasonable and he adds a key element to this team. Signing Mik, Kuz, and the steal of Pederson and Bear for a fifth. Then add actual serviceable third and fourth liners like Lazar and Joshua. Dermott may work out.  Even finding Martin and Delia as solid backups.

 

So if, and its a big IF, if JR can somehow manage to upgrade our D to find a real  partner for Hughes with assets  like Bo, and whomever else like a Garland, or even Boeser.  I also think that Myers, with his size and experience, with only one year left at 6 mill, is someone we can trade at the TD without retaining salary. Some team at the TD will think they need him enough to swallow that.  (Even if they regret it later). So after that, I think we could be a 70% shot at a deep playoff team.  So even if a proper rebuild, waiting another eight years, with a different core entirely, may make us more like a 90% shot team, its not worth the wait now. Its tipped over to a 'might as well go for it now' scenario.

 

All we need is Ellen Degnerous and the radical left wing media to get on board, and we could do it.

 

[Viper007]

14 hours ago, kilgore said:

 

I say YES too.

Its a matter of degrees and critical mass.  There is a tipping point where there is an opening to be a decent playoff team....which means there is a shot at the Cup at least....or 8 more years of misery, where Petey, Hughes, Miller, Bo are gone or have seen their best days. And we just have faith in some unknown future star(s).

 

Look JB screwed up big time. In the worst possible ways. ie. trading away picks and prospects and draining the farm, signing washed up vets for term and topping up the cap, then trying to correct his last mistakes by adding even worse anchors, and still missing the playoffs.  OEL trade was one of the worst in our history, and cost us a huge handicap for the next 5 seasons, all for one year of cap savings that is now over. Garland is fine but not worth the cap for what he brings either.  Plus gave them a top ten pick who turned out to be Dylan Guenther, who is captaining our World Junior team. That move, and cap anchor, will cost us Bo Horvat. JB, the gifts keep coming.

 

But its a matter of degrees, and critical mass. With JB's accidental rebuild, Petey and Hughes fell in our lap.  Demko was a steal. JR could have gone full blow up but also saw the glass was slightly over half full, and saw possibilities. So he made some moves the other way. Some bad...signing Boeser (in hindsight), trading Dicky and a second rounder for Stillman. But more good moves. Signing Miller which I still like. His contract is not unreasonable and he adds a key element to this team. Signing Mik, Kuz, and the steal of Pederson and Bear for a fifth. Then add actual serviceable third and fourth liners like Lazar and Joshua. Dermott may work out.  Even finding Martin and Delia as solid backups.

 

So if, and its a big IF, if JR can somehow manage to upgrade our D to find a real  partner for Hughes with assets  like Bo, and whomever else like a Garland, or even Boeser.  I also think that Myers, with his size and experience, with only one year left at 6 mill, is someone we can trade at the TD without retaining salary. Some team at the TD will think they need him enough to swallow that.  (Even if they regret it later). So after that, I think we could be a 70% shot at a deep playoff team.  So even if a proper rebuild, waiting another eight years, with a different core entirely, may make us more like a 90% shot team, its not worth the wait now. Its tipped over to a 'might as well go for it now' scenario.

 

All we need is Ellen Degnerous and the radical left wing media to get on board, and we could do it.

 

Wright is captaining the team, not Guenther.  He did have a hatty tonight, but mostly cause Bedard is feeding him during the PP.

[iceman64]

Honestly, in my mind we could use some tougher skilled players, especially since we're the 4th smallest team in the league. 

 Anddddd we all know how that goes in the playoffs...

[alt kilgore]

9 hours ago, Viper007 said:

Wright is captaining the team, not Guenther.  He did have a hatty tonight, but mostly cause Bedard is feeding him during the PP.

My mistake. He’s an alternate C. Must have heard it wrong on the feed.

 A hatty is a hatty though. You can’t be saying you’d rather have OEL and his contract over Guenther in our system.

 

i admit it’s probably sour grapes in that it sure would be nice to be able to enjoy the world junior Canadian team watching an actual Canucks prospect again. Who was the last one? Virtanen? Who was a disaster. And before that Hodgson?

[komodo0921]

On 12/25/2022 at 1:44 PM, Alflives said:

I say yes! 

We just need a much better supporting cast.  

But these five guys can get ‘er done. 

I see a Cup parade down Georgia in 2024. 

I say no because they aren't winning.

Pretty simple

[MikeyD]

On 12/25/2022 at 2:44 PM, Alflives said:

I say yes! 

We just need a much better supporting cast.  

But these five guys can get ‘er done. 

I see a Cup parade down Georgia in 2024. 

I say they have about a snowball's chance in hell. 

 

Pettersson is absolutely vital. We need more guys similar to that. 100% effort every game.

 

I think Quinn Hughes is also fine.

 

Horvat and Miller aren't consistent enough in their efforts and don't focus on enough details to take us to a cup. Can they? Sure. But the best teams in the league get that buy-in nearly every night. 

 

Demko I need more sample size from. Probably good enough though. He's streaky which is my one criticism about him. 

 

But with that said, all of these players have a different level they could take it to, however getting all of them to hit it at the exact same time would earn them miracle run status. I personally think we need to switch out Bo and Miller with two players that may not be as offensive but are absolute engines that can drive play. If we did that then I think we'd become contenders. If we can find two Petey-lite's, we'd be contending for a while. 

[Sativika]

Does anyone know, or have any concrete "speculation" if you will, of why Schmidt, Holtby. Hamonic, or anyone else?!?!?!!???..............didn't like it here? I recall the term  "toxic atmosphere " in the past regarding such.  If indeed such is infiltrating the room/organization, then for pity sakes what can it be? Who or what is the catalyst that started it all. Is it anything to do with the previous management group? The current owner?  Certain players? What? What? WHAT? Ahem.....uhmmmmm...........erm.............

 

Go Canucks Go!

[Toyotasfan]

This core isn’t even good enough to get into the playoffs. 
Pettersson is a piece that can lead a team, the rest is just average and replaceable parts. Hughes with the right partner can be salvaged, Demko is a question mark. Miller is good when he gives 100% , Horvat is at his peak right now, trade him.

[Alflives]

2 minutes ago, Toyotasfan said:

This core isn’t even good enough to get into the playoffs. 
Pettersson is a piece that can lead a team, the rest is just average and replaceable parts. Hughes with the right partner can be salvaged, Demko is a question mark. Miller is good when he gives 100% , Horvat is at his peak right now, trade him.

You do realize Hughes is a ppg D man who plays 25+ minutes, PP, PK, and has been stuck with #7 D men for his partner

(at 5 on 5) since Tanev left, right?  

[Toyotasfan]

1 hour ago, Alflives said:

You do realize Hughes is a ppg D man who plays 25+ minutes, PP, PK, and has been stuck with #7 D men for his partner

(at 5 on 5) since Tanev left, right?  

Don’t get me wrong, I like Hughes, If I was a coach however, I would never put him on the ice with 5 minutes to go in a situation where he was defending a lead. If Schenn was faster, Hughes would have a partner that could really elevate him to another level. How is it OEL and Hughes are not our top pair? 

[Gurn]

31 minutes ago, Toyotasfan said:

How is it OEL and Hughes are not our top pair? 

They both play the left side, and when Quinn tried the other side, he got hit more often and harder.

 

[Drakrami]

Easiest way to analyse this is to compare it with previous year's champ. MacKinnon, Makar, Rantanen, Landeskog, Toews. Their top 5 is pretty much on another tier from ours, almost incomparable. 

 

Let's do another Kucherov, Point, Hedman, Stamkos, Vasilevsiky. Pretty much the same thing... Their top 5 is pretty much on another tier from ours, almost incomparable. 

 

Let's go back to 2019. O'Reilly, Tarasenko, Pietrangelo, Schwartz, Binnington (god mode Binnington, not 2023 Binnington)

This one is much closer, in fact our core is better. But how much of their run is because of Binnington that was on fire? 

[D-Money]

Usually some of the core players on a true contender are in the running for the NHL awards for MVPs (Hart, Norris, Vezina, Selke), even in years where they don’t win. Avs have had MacKinnon for Hart (with Rantanen at least making the discussion) and Makar for Norris (and Toews was also 8th in voting). Tampa has had Kuch for Hart (with Point also in consideration), Hedman for Norris, and Vasi for Vezina. St. Louis had O’Reilly for Selke, Pietrangelo for Norris, and even Binnington would have won the Vezina if he played like he was for the full season.

 

They don’t have to get nominated every season, but they tend to peak around the time the team has playoff success. Go back to when Vancouver was a true contender. We had two Hart guys in the twins, and perennial Vezina and Selke guys in Luongo and Kesler. Do you see anything like that now?

 

I could see a path where Pettersson gets good enough to challenge for the Hart… but he’s not there yet. And if he can stay healthy and get a stronger team in front of him, maybe Demko… but I have serious doubts, especially since he’s starting to have injury trouble. As much as I like Hughes, I don’t see him having enough defensive impact to get to that level. And Horvat may be putting on a show for his contract season, but he’s never been considered as a top-30 Center in the league before now, let alone one of the absolute best.

 

So short answer: No. We need to acquire at least one more elite player to get there, and it almost certainly has to be done by drafting him. And to do that, you usually need to draft a number of guys, and how at least one of them becomes that type of player.

 

Edited January 5, 2023 by D-Money

[Nucker 67]

The Canucks core 5 are good enough to win.  It's the 17 other players on the roster that's the problem.

 

Big contracts to the wrong players and no prospects pushing for spots. 

[ToTellTheTruth]

On 12/27/2022 at 6:10 PM, Viper007 said:

You're not Telling the truth.  They played in the playoffs once.  Might need to change your name to IWillTellTheTruthSometimes or IWillBendTheTruthToFitMyNarrative.

 You count a once in a lifetime global epidemic that causes the NHL to increase the number of teams by 8 to try for playoffs?

The last time they EARNED a playoff spot was 2014/15.

[ToTellTheTruth]

On 12/27/2022 at 6:25 PM, iceman64 said:

I agree with most of that BUT there was issues around some of the players who went for nothing but others I shook my head at but at the end of the day as we stand now it's hardly as bad as the media hacks and some fans make it out to be, in fact I'm surprised we're even in the playoff conversation at all. I thought the broken locked in 2012 roster would screw us a lot longer than this. 

 However, if we dump the players we can for either D prospects or D picks and load up to beat the odds or better odds anyway to score a bigger D like schenner with a edge who has more skill and speed. 

 Anyway at least we have some trade bait which we didn't exactly have before but still the cap won't make any of it easier... 

 Good thing there's a few coming off the books soon so that's going to help! 

 We just need to tweak shi_ and adjust on the fly as needed, we don't have any other choice until D is looked after AND team D as well. 

 Elite teams are almost as good as D as they are on offense so there's the bar.. 

 

 

I am not sure that 2012 roster held the team back. I think it was signing an over priced Miller that was the big mistake. IMO if they didn't have a goalie they are in the McD/Eichel draft race. Maybe even the Mathews draft too. Then they would have had 3 draft picks, 2014, 2015, 2016 not named Virtanen or Juloevi and a team of mentors with millions in cap space with Markstrom and most of the 2014 draft class coming on.

Essentially the Tampa/Chicago/Pittsburgh retool models.

 

In my fantasy world the team in 2015/16 could have looked like

Larkin, Horvat, Tkachuk, Tryamkin, Tanev, Edler, Hamhuis, Garrison, Sedins, Hansen, Burroughs, Forsling, the Kesler replacements, Demko, the 2015 top 3 draft pick and 6+ million in cap space, overall a pretty good retooling and all within 3 years. Plus any returns from FAs leaving.

[Viper007]

5 hours ago, ToTellTheTruth said:

 You count a once in a lifetime global epidemic that causes the NHL to increase the number of teams by 8 to try for playoffs?

The last time they EARNED a playoff spot was 2014/15.

When the season ended they were still top 8 according to win % in the west so yes they did make it.  Then they proved even more by winning the play in round, then winning another round.

[cocanuck]

I still think we dont know the answer to this question.  We all agree there is talent on this team and im sure we can all agree that are still a few pieces away.   The main issue i see is that we really dont have a coach that will implement a more defensive responsible system and hold players accountable..  i love bruce and his personality but for this team to improve its really entirely on the defensive system and penalty killing.  This team will never be good unless those two things improve and that is where coaching can make the biggest impact..  its tough watching junior teams have better structure on the pk then the nucks have..  this team has a lot of good quality players sans a better defenseman or two and a touch more grit.  We can trade away our problems for other teams problems but i dont see much change until a coach who can teach structure  ( to use managements word ). changes.  I would love to see what a trotz or someone along those lines could do here.  Yes the offense may suffer but what are we winning with scoring a lot of goals now?

[sxqhfeh]

It’s too late for the Canucks to tank for Connor Bedard - Vancouver Is Awesome

[Rabid Rooster]

If Miller is essential as a core player, we’re hooped.

No matter if we lose all the games to the end of the season, Bettman will NEVER allow us a #1 pick. Not going to happen, period.