2023 James Norris Memorial Trophy finalists unveiled

[Miss Korea Bob.Loblaw]

3 minutes ago, Curmudgeon said:

Most of the voters are in bed asleep when Canucks game even start. They have little to no idea how good Petey and Quinn are. It has always been that way and it always will be. 

Kopitar and Karlsson are in Califronia - how are they asleep for Vancouver games and not LA/SJ?

[Elias Pettersson]

9 minutes ago, Bob.Loblaw said:

Kopitar and Karlsson are in Califronia - how are they asleep for Vancouver games and not LA/SJ?

Don't the California teams play alot of games on the weekend in the afternoon?

[Master Mind]

14 minutes ago, Curmudgeon said:

Most of the voters are in bed asleep when Canucks game even start. They have little to no idea how good Petey and Quinn are. It has always been that way and it always will be. 

Two of the three finalists are on San Jose and Colorado.

 

Not a good time to try that argument.

[Crabcakes]

1 hour ago, -AJ- said:

Some of those names are amazing defensively, but they actually lack on the offensive side, which I do think has become a vital part of the perfect defenseman. Guys like Fox and now Makar emulate a defenseman who can do it all. Karlsson, at least this season, does not. He was a rover this year, not a defenseman.

This is the thing, they want the Norris winner to be able to carry a line and perform well regardless of who his partner is.  Quinn Hughes is regarded as a D who needs a solid partner.  This is his reputation in the east who don't see him play much.  He has been with a 3rd pair quality partner and put up 76 points and a +15.  A knock on him may be not enough goals though (7)

 

I'd like to know how Quinn stacked up in the vote

[-AJ-]

6 minutes ago, Crabcakes said:

This is the thing, they want the Norris winner to be able to carry a line and perform well regardless of who his partner is.  Quinn Hughes is regarded as a D who needs a solid partner.  This is his reputation in the east who don't see him play much.  He has been with a 3rd pair quality partner and put up 76 points and a +15.  A knock on him may be not enough goals though (7)

 

I'd like to know how Quinn stacked up in the vote

I would bet that he was at least top 10 this year and I wouldn't even be shocked if he was as high as 5th. I personally had him ranked 7th this year.

[Diamonds]

Karlsson will probably win it due to scoring 100+ points, but personally I don't think he should.

 

I voted for Makar because even though he only played 60 games, he scored 66 points and averaged almost 3 minutes on the PK to go with his league-leading 26:23 average TOI. He truly played all situations and dominated. 

[HighOnHockey]

7 hours ago, Jester13 said:

These awards are sure starting to seem like reputation awards, these days. 

Haven't they always?

[IBatch]

10 hours ago, -AJ- said:

I would bet that he was at least top 10 this year and I wouldn't even be shocked if he was as high as 5th. I personally had him ranked 7th this year.

That's a fair ranking AJ.    QHs is very special, and takes his defensive game seriously - unlike other "rovers" in the past the won Norris trophies, Subban, Scott Neidermayer,  he doesn't actually spend much of any time around or behind the other goalies net.    He's not a pinching defenseman really either - not often anyways,  instead gains their zone and creates space with his passing game.    Actually like to see him do it more often, but think he lacks foot speed, isn't  Karlsson,  Coffey, Neidermayer, Zubov, Housley or Leetch - can't skate back fast enough.    If he works on that, top speed, for sure he could add that to his tool box.   To me he's more of a Brian Campbell, and will only get better and better at this.   Campbell was a Canuck killer before he went to Florida ... could control the pace of the game in all three zones using his edges and his passing.    
 

Karlsson was by far SJ best player this year ... his plus minus is gross, but when you compare some of his linemates it's not so bad at all.   Thought his chance of 100 slipped away at the TDL ... lost even more talent on his team.    It's a pity he's back but been wasted in SJ.   Hope he gets traded.    He's also showing the young group we have today aside from maybe Makar,  what a truly great offensive defenseman looks like.   And that he is.   Karlsson prior to Cooke severing his Achilles tendon, deserved to be in the same conversation as Ovi and Crosby - a generational talent just entering his prime years.    What he'd done to that point was truly special.   And OTT probably would have won a cup and EK the Smythe IF they scored one more goal in game 7 versus PIT.   That wasn't a great OTT team, just pretty mediocre aside from EK.    Stone wasn't there yet and neither was Zib.    Anderson reminded me a lot of McLean.    They had that going for them.   

 

Before this year, EK was already part of a select group of D's ... Potvin, Orr and Coffey, only other guys to be in the top 11 in scoring 3 times.   Now he's done it four times.   Makar won't likely do that.  

 

Lidstrom and others won a Norris being a minus player.    What also needs to be considered is the team they have infront of them.   SJ would arguably be the worst in the league without EK's other worldly performance this season.    

[IBatch]

9 hours ago, Diamonds said:

Karlsson will probably win it due to scoring 100+ points, but personally I don't think he should.

 

I voted for Makar because even though he only played 60 games, he scored 66 points and averaged almost 3 minutes on the PK to go with his league-leading 26:23 average TOI. He truly played all situations and dominated. 

Only thing is there is too much season he didn't play.    Who knows how it would have gone for him.   Fox is a deserving candidate for sure.    It's truly nice to be able to even debate this.   It's been way way way too long waiting for another group of young D's to come in and be special right off the hop.   Took Lidstrom quite a while to get there.   Borque, Orr and Coffey not so much.   Ten years ago, a lot of these guys would have won the Norris ... Heiskanen.   Fox.   Makar.   EK.    QHs.   Take your pick. 

 

Heiskenan, Fox, Makar, QHs, Dahlin ... and some bright lights coming in too.   It's really nice that the talent level is finally catching up with expansion.   Just hope that continues. 

[HorvatToBaertschi]

And not a care was given in the defensive zone by any of those 3.

[shiznak]

If there was a snub for the Norris, it was actually Lindholm not Hughes.

 

[shiznak]

12 hours ago, Curmudgeon said:

Most of the voters are in bed asleep when Canucks game even start. They have little to no idea how good Petey and Quinn are. It has always been that way and it always will be. 

This is such a bad take.

 

You do realize that the Canucks do travel to other cities, right? Where voters get to see them play earlier than the normal 7pm start time, on the Western Coast. Not only that, but we live in a world where we can literally rewatch games at anytime of the day. 

Edited May 5, 2023 by shiznak

[J.I.A.H.N]

I am a Bobby Orr fan, as you all know.....

 

I question, whether this  award is for the best Defenseman in the league, or the Best Defenseman in the Season.................

 

As much as it pains me, I think Karlsson had a incredible season ,25 points better than runners up, Quinn Hughes and Josh Morrissey

 

But Hampus Lindholm +49 and Devon Toews + 39 were heads and tails better than anyone else at even strength..to me, this is the big one, as it suggests, that they make their team better, while on the ice. 

 

The NHL is all about Promotion and Fox is in a big market, so go figure........IMO, he is the middle of the top 10, not top 3, same as Hughes. 

 

No doubt Makar is special......

 

Power play points + Plus/Minus is my guide, to is having a great season (Analytics would have a field day with my formula)

 

1st...................Lindholm.........................+49 and 17 PPP = 66

2nd..................Fox..................................+28 and 29 PPP = 57

3rd...................Hamilton..........................+23 and 28 PPP = 51

 

Hughes............................+15 and 34 PPP = 49

Karlsson...........................-26 and 27 PPP = 1

 

IMO, Hughes had the better season, as playing a bottom team with those numbers is far more impressive.............but you can spin it a thousand different ways!

 

 

 

[Alflives]

10 minutes ago, J.I.A.H.N said:

I am a Bobby Orr fan, as you all know.....

 

I question, whether this  award is for the best Defenseman in the league, or the Best Defenseman in the Season.................

 

As much as it pains me, I think Karlsson had a incredible season ,25 points better than runners up, Quinn Hughes and Josh Morrissey

 

But Hampus Lindholm +49 and Devon Toews + 39 were heads and tails better than anyone else at even strength..to me, this is the big one, as it suggests, that they make their team better, while on the ice. 

 

The NHL is all about Promotion and Fox is in a big market, so go figure........IMO, he is the middle of the top 10, not top 3, same as Hughes. 

 

No doubt Makar is special......

 

Power play points + Plus/Minus is my guide, to is having a great season (Analytics would have a field day with my formula)

 

1st...................Lindholm.........................+49 and 17 PPP = 66

2nd..................Fox..................................+28 and 29 PPP = 57

3rd...................Hamilton..........................+23 and 28 PPP = 51

 

Hughes............................+15 and 34 PPP = 49

Karlsson...........................-26 and 27 PPP = 1

 

IMO, Hughes had the better season, as playing a bottom team with those numbers is far more impressive.............but you can spin it a thousand different ways!

 

 

 

This is a very interesting way to look at the high end D. What about points + plus/minus? How does that look? 

 

 

 

[Jester13]

17 hours ago, Bob.Loblaw said:

You say that, but who do you think is the reputation vote?

Past award winners Fox and Makar. Both are amazing, but I don't see how a guy who played 60 games (as good as he is) should be up there when other guys like Hughes, JM, Hamilton, etc had such amazing seasons yet all get snubbed.

[Kevin Biestra]

24 minutes ago, J.I.A.H.N said:

Power play points + Plus/Minus is my guide, to is having a great season (Analytics would have a field day with my formula)

 

1st...................Lindholm.........................+49 and 17 PPP = 66

2nd..................Fox..................................+28 and 29 PPP = 57

3rd...................Hamilton..........................+23 and 28 PPP = 51

 

Hughes............................+15 and 34 PPP = 49

Karlsson...........................-26 and 27 PPP = 1

 

IMO, Hughes had the better season, as playing a bottom team with those numbers is far more impressive.............but you can spin it a thousand different ways!

 

I'm not getting why you would weigh power play points so heavily in the mix.

[J.I.A.H.N]

36 minutes ago, Alflives said:

This is a very interesting way to look at the high end D. What about points + plus/minus? How does that look? 

 

 

 

The reason I look at this way, is that it answers 2 questions (almost).............plus minus tells me what you are doing at even strength, and PPP tells me what you do on the Powerplay................I suppose you could add more to it, but I wanted to simplify it. Like I say, you could use a hundred different stats.

 

Pretty impressed with Lindholms contributions, this year..............especially since they have McAvoy

 

But there you go, another variable, that is not in my formula............strength of team.............which even makes Hughes look even better!

[J.I.A.H.N]

52 minutes ago, Kevin Biestra said:

 

I'm not getting why you would weigh power play points so heavily in the mix.

Good question.........well, I thinkit paints a more complete picture........I think PK does too, if you could quantify it better, but IMO, PK is more about system than one particular player, where as PP  can really show a players offensive talent. I agree, my method is incomplete, but I think it really separates the men from the boys.

[J.I.A.H.N]

1 hour ago, Jester13 said:

Past award winners Fox and Makar. Both are amazing, but I don't see how a guy who played 60 games (as good as he is) should be up there when other guys like Hughes, JM, Hamilton, etc had such amazing seasons yet all get snubbed.

If Hughes played 60 games in a season, would you still call him the best Canuck defenseman? Just asking!

[Miss Korea Bob.Loblaw]

1 hour ago, Jester13 said:

Past award winners Fox and Makar. Both are amazing, but I don't see how a guy who played 60 games (as good as he is) should be up there when other guys like Hughes, JM, Hamilton, etc had such amazing seasons yet all get snubbed.

I think Fox was a completely fair nomination.  You can only have 3.  Makar did have a very good season despite playing significantly less games.  I do think Morrissey got snubbed in favour of Makar.  I think Hamilton should be #5 on the voting list.  All the names you mentioned are top 5... except for Hughes.  Given his insanely high usage rate, I think he needed to produce more to crack the top 3.  His metrics (both offensive and defensive) were atrocious the first half of the season under Boudreau.  He was getting points but that was pretty much it.  If he had played the entire year under Tocchet's system, then I do think Hughes might've earned a Norris nomination.