Olli Juolevi | #48 | D

[Jtutino]

I think the Canucks fans have a right to be concerned with Ollis development, The kid has only played 56 games of pro hockey and has spent more time the last 2 years rehabbing than he has on the ice. Take this summer, hes be working just to get back to where he was. My hopes for Olli this year is that he gets to play at least 60 games whether that be in Vancouver or Utica. I like his offensive game but like most young D turning pro, he needs to work on his game in his own zone. that -12 in 18 is ugly.

[NewbieCanuckFan]

7 minutes ago, Jtutino said:

I think the Canucks fans have a right to be concerned with Ollis development, The kid has only played 56 games of pro hockey and has spent more time the last 2 years rehabbing than he has on the ice. Take this summer, hes be working just to get back to where he was. My hopes for Olli this year is that he gets to play at least 60 games whether that be in Vancouver or Utica. I like his offensive game but like most young D turning pro, he needs to work on his game in his own zone. that -12 in 18 is ugly.

Plus/minus without context are mostly meaningless.  Take a look at Horvat’s huge minus that one year for example.  Then look at when we had a NHL coach in charge in subsequent seasons.  Sutter used primarily as a shutdown guy freeing Horvat up offensively.  A least Willie D got a good start on his retirement fund with that NHL paycheck for three seasons.

 

 

Edited July 26, 2019 by NewbieCanuckFan

[Noble 6]

1) Saying that it's more likely Juolevi turns into a solid defenseman than a great one is not writing him off as a bust.

2) Believing that Juolevi still can be a top pairing/#1 defenseman does not make you a better or "true" Canucks fan.

3) Thinking that Juolevi has not lived up to expectations and won't turn into anything special in the NHL does not make you less of a Canucks fan. 

4) In general, there are far more positive posts than negative ones in this topic; Juolevi having a lower ceiling, stunted development, etc. is not being rammed down anyone's throat. 

Edited July 26, 2019 by Horvat is a Boss

[Kanukfanatic]

32 minutes ago, ForsbergTheGreat said:

I’m sorry my tone offends to the point where your reading comprehension goes out the window. If you are looking for a safe place where only positive things are discussed then maybe you shouldn’t be on an internet discussion board. 

 

Stating that he’s more likely to be a solid 2nd pairing D rather than a #1 D, is not calling the kid a bust. 

Stating that he’s not likely to reach the levels of a p/gp PWF is at, is not writing him off.  

 

If that’s the conclusion some people get out of those statements then I’d suggest for people to not be so damn sensitive.  Not every prospect is going to pan out an become a future HHOF, deal with it. 

You just can't resist the sarcasm and condescension eh? Lol.  

 

If you actually have anything worthy of reading, your personal attacks are probably why some people don't bother.

Edited July 26, 2019 by Kanukfanatic

[Kanukfanatic]

37 minutes ago, ForsbergTheGreat said:

 

No Josi a true number one D who puts up 60 point seasons while playing 25 min a night. That is not what Juolevi was drafted to be. That is your own made up narrative.

 

Not even JB expects that out of juolevi. JB clearly stated in his draft year that he didn’t believe Juolevi would be a #1 guy, that he could be a top pairing D but not #1. It’s people like you that create these fairytales.

 

Tryamkin the next chara, jake the next bertuzzi, zhukenov the next datsyuk. Seriously why can you just let the players develop and not set these high, unrealistic expectations....and if the don’t turn out, oh well move on no GM is perfect, so why do some feel the need act as if he is.  

 

 

Now you know what JB expects? Pray tell.....please enlighten us all.  

[Jtutino]

8 minutes ago, NewbieCanuckFan said:

Plus/minus without context are mostly meaningless.  Take a look at Horvat’s huge minus that one year for example.  Then look at when we had a NHL coach in charge in subsequent seasons.  Sutter used primarily as a shutdown guy freeing Horvat up offensively.  A least Willie D got a good start on his retirement fund with that NHL paycheck for three seasons.

 

 

I agree plus minus isnt everything, but its not a meaningless stat either. when the other team scores 12 more times 5 vs 5 in 18 games its not a good thing. He wasnt in a shutdown role either. Im not saying he will always be a liability but he still has alot of learning to do on that side of the puck. I dont need stats to tell me that, just give it the eye test. 

[ForsbergTheGreat]

19 minutes ago, Kanukfanatic said:

You just can't resist the sarcasm and condescension eh? Lol.  

 

If you actually have anything worthy of reading, your personal attacks are probably why some people don't bother.

I could really care less if you bother or not I’m not here to make you happy. 

 

17 minutes ago, Kanukfanatic said:

Now you know what JB expects? Pray tell.....please enlighten us all.  

Because that’s what he stated. Shocking hey. 

 

“I don’t know if there’s a true No. 1 defenseman (in the draft),” Benning told TSN 1040 radio. “If you look through the league right now, there’s maybe eight or ten No. 1 defensemen in the whole league.”

 

I know, Rocket science. 

[guntrix]

1 hour ago, Kanukfanatic said:

But most of the fans on here know OJ has not blossomed as a prospect right out of the gate. They talk about how his injuries may have slowed down his progress towards being an NHL D man.

 

You and a few others just seem to want to continue to hammer home that OJ, as a prospect has just disappointed so far. I mean, look at your condescending words above when you call posters who choose to be positive "live in a fairytale land". That is stupid imo and an attempt to belittle positive attitudes.

 

The difference in opinions is, the upbeat more positive fans try to see the glass as half full. With an off season of training and hopefully being healthy, hopefully OJ develops well and becomes a great player for the Canucks. Something we sorely need on the back end.

 

Instead you and a few others choose to see the glass as half empty by saying we should all be disappointed in OJ and you continue to harp on it over and over. Look at your next bolded statement - that is just YOU who says others can't accept OJ "struggled living up to what we hoped for". You say it over and over.  We all know his injuries have resulted in his development being stunted. Who cares? We hope he develops well this year. Positive fans don't need to hear over and over and over how certain negative "fans" think OJ is not doing well.

 

No offence, but YOU don't need to manage MY expectations...or anyone else's imo.

 

 

 

Except seeing the “glass half full” or “half empty” doesn’t make anyone any more or less of a fan. I personally have yet to engage in this because I’d like to see how Juolevi does this coming season though I agree that it’s a warranted discussion to have given the circumstances. Heck, it’s probably the best even-sided discussion this forum’s got going on atm.

 

I’ll never understand this forum’s knack for jerk-fests and hand-holding. What’s the point of a discussion board if posters take offense to actual discussions?  

[Kanukfanatic]

12 minutes ago, ForsbergTheGreat said:

I could really care less if you bother or not I’m not here to make you happy. 

 

 

 

Keep up the negativity boyo.  

[Rob_Zepp]

21 hours ago, ForsbergTheGreat said:

The puzzling part is people actually believe that. I guess it’s because it’s been parroted over and over to the point where people around here think its fact. Tell a lie enough times and it becomes the truth, I guess. 

 

Nothing about his U20 year in Finland was historical. It was solid at best and it really takes only two seconds to look up the stats debunk this made up theory. Here I’ll do the work for you. 

 

https://www.eliteprospects.com/league/liiga/stats/all-time-season?position=d&age=u20&sort=ppg

 

Tell me how this is historical. It’s not.  He put up .5 p/gp.  Impressive for a U20. But He matched the same point production as “legend” ville pokka.  Laaksonen Sabre’s 3rd round pick from 2017 just produced a more “historic” season. Yet no knows even heard of him on these boards. 

 

The fact that you compare his season to EP actually record breaking season is insulting. 

 

Can you please stop fabricating narratives. While it may give you favor to some on these boards, its negatively adding fuel to abs simply causing more people to be falsely misguided. 

 

Fabricating?  TPS Turku has been a team since 1922 - that nearly 100 years.   It has scores of notable Dman alumus inclusive of Sami Salo and Kimmo Timonen.   OJ's rookie season when he was still a teenager was the second highest scoring season in that nearly 100 year history of one of the top teams in Finland year in and year out.  I don't know what your definition of historic is, but that works for most people.   Further, his one year there he was  the highest scoring defenceman on his team, as well as team leader in plus/minus. Against men. Nice work, kid even if some people wish to continue creating a negative narrative for you.    

[Kanukfanatic]

13 minutes ago, guntrix said:

Except seeing the “glass half full” or “half empty” doesn’t make anyone any more or less of a fan. I personally have yet to engage in this because I’d like to see how Juolevi does this coming season though I agree that it’s a warranted discussion to have given the circumstances. Heck, it’s probably the best even-sided discussion this forum’s got going on atm.

 

I’ll never understand this forum’s knack for jerk-fests and hand-holding. What’s the point of a discussion board if posters take offense to actual discussions?  

Discussions are great.

 

Constant whining and moaning about young prospects that seem to have in some way personally insulted a poster by not doing better are hilarious.

 

But done over and over and over makes those posters just starved for attention I suppose.

[ForsbergTheGreat]

46 minutes ago, Rob_Zepp said:

Fabricating?  TPS Turku has been a team since 1922 - that nearly 100 years.   It has scores of notable Dman alumus inclusive of Sami Salo and Kimmo Timonen.   OJ's rookie season when he was still a teenager was the second highest scoring season in that nearly 100 year history of one of the top teams in Finland year in and year out.  I don't know what your definition of historic is, but that works for most people.   Further, his one year there he was  the highest scoring defenceman on his team, as well as team leader in plus/minus. Against men. Nice work, kid even if some people wish to continue creating a negative narrative for you.    

  Nice attempt at changing the goal posts. You said historical stats in the league. 

 

“historical values for a teen in that league”

 

Now you try to spin as a team stats. Quite pathetic really. Just admit you were wrong and move on..... 

 

......But wait there’s more...

 

Juolevi wasn’t the highest scoring defense on his team.  He was fifth. Heikkinen, jonsson, Tallinder and Eronen had higher point totals. 

 

Oh and juolevi wasn’t a team leader in plus minus. He was a plus 7. Seven players on his team had better +/-  

 

lol. Like I said. You are the king of fabrication. The problem is there are too many suckers on this board that fall for it. 

 

P.S. ben Hutton’s rookie year he was the highest scoring defensemen on our team. “Historic”

Edited July 26, 2019 by ForsbergTheGreat

[Kootenay Gold]

2 hours ago, Kanukfanatic said:

But most of the fans on here know OJ has not blossomed as a prospect right out of the gate. They talk about how his injuries may have slowed down his progress towards being an NHL D man.

 

You and a few others just seem to want to continue to hammer home that OJ, as a prospect has just disappointed so far. I mean, look at your condescending words above when you call posters who choose to be positive "live in a fairytale land". That is stupid imo and an attempt to belittle positive attitudes.

 

The difference in opinions is, the upbeat more positive fans try to see the glass as half full. With an off season of training and hopefully being healthy, hopefully OJ develops well and becomes a great player for the Canucks. Something we sorely need on the back end.

 

Instead you and a few others choose to see the glass as half empty by saying we should all be disappointed in OJ and you continue to harp on it over and over. Look at your next bolded statement - that is just YOU who says others can't accept OJ "struggled living up to what we hoped for". You say it over and over.  We all know his injuries have resulted in his development being stunted. Who cares? We hope he develops well this year. Positive fans don't need to hear over and over and over how certain negative "fans" think OJ is not doing well.

 

No offence, but YOU don't need to manage MY expectations...or anyone else's imo.

 

 

 

I very much agree with your post but perhaps a better word choice would be delayed vs stunted. Stunted implies not getting to full potential and I still have a wait and see mentality with that premise

[Jtutino]

12 minutes ago, Rob_Zepp said:

Fabricating?  TPS Turku has been a team since 1922 - that nearly 100 years.   It has scores of notable Dman alumus inclusive of Sami Salo and Kimmo Timonen.   OJ's rookie season when he was still a teenager was the second highest scoring season in that nearly 100 year history of one of the top teams in Finland year in and year out.  I don't know what your definition of historic is, but that works for most people.   Further, his one year there he was  the highest scoring defenceman on his team, as well as team leader in plus/minus. Against men. Nice work, kid even if some people wish to continue creating a negative narrative for you.    

When he played for TPS he wasnt the highest scoring d on the team. He was the 4th highest scoring D.

[Toews]

36 minutes ago, Rob_Zepp said:

Fabricating?  TPS Turku has been a team since 1922 - that nearly 100 years.   It has scores of notable Dman alumus inclusive of Sami Salo and Kimmo Timonen.   OJ's rookie season when he was still a teenager was the second highest scoring season in that nearly 100 year history of one of the top teams in Finland year in and year out.  I don't know what your definition of historic is, but that works for most people.   Further, his one year there he was  the highest scoring defenceman on his team, as well as team leader in plus/minus. Against men. Nice work, kid even if some people wish to continue creating a negative narrative for you.    

How many of the "alumus" were drafted prospects? You have no credibility on this board because rather than letting facts shape your opinion, you look for facts that support whatever narrative that you are pushing. Even most Finns will admit that their history of developing defenseman has been putrid at best, so you have an obvious sample size problem. Juolevi had a good season in Liiga, pretending he did something unheard of is disingenuous. 

Edited July 26, 2019 by Toews

[Putgolzin]

30 minutes ago, ForsbergTheGreat said:

  Nice attempt at changing the goal posts. You said historical stats in the league. 

 

“historical values for a teen in that league”

 

Now you try to spin as a team stats. Quite pathetic really. Just admit you were wrong and move on 

Was he wrong though?

I looked at the link posted above - Juolevi really had a top 20 PPG in that league's history for a D man at U20? Am I reading this right? How is that not historic?

I can agree it's not historic like Pettersson's U20 in the SHL, but that still is pretty amazing. I would call it historic.

[Honky Cat]

4 hours ago, Fanuck said:

I would argue Honky,  that a HUGE number of posters here, not saying you, actually don't know much about hockey as opposed to just being in denial- to me these are very different concepts.   Yes, they are fans and know the basics like the rules and that the NHL has a salary cap, but they have little to no understanding of how teams develop assets within their organization.  

 

When I hear people categorizing OJ as a 'bust' at this stage in his career in immediately understand they have limited hockey knowledge .  Let me be clear,  I'm not saying OJ is or isn't a bust - only that it is clearly much, much too early to say either way.   Writing off a kid this early exposes more than a person's opinion - it underscores their entire understanding of the process imo.  

You see..this is the problem here..Any fair 'realistic' observations about this player (if they are not flattering) are looked at as 'whining'....Nobody has said that OJ is a 'bust' as a player, and nobody is writing him off...On the contrary,your failure (or denial) to not notice the red flags in his play, (Sami Salo spelled them out ) lead me to believe that you have limited hockey knowledge.

 

He's not even written to the roster anymore..Leapfrogged by other prospects in his position..Completely tumbled out of the 'best prospect, not in the NHL' lists..Its highly unlikely that he will live up to the lofty 5th OA...Fortunately, because of the success of recent Canuck draft picks,OJ can get out of the glare.

[Alflives]

2 hours ago, ForsbergTheGreat said:

First and foremost I’m a fan of the sport. I love hockey. Canucks are and always have been my #1. But being a fan of a team doesn’t mean you can’t appreciate players on other teams and skill sets they bring to the game. It doesn’t mean I have to be in a delusion that everything is rainbows and unicorns with this team. If that were the case we’d have had at least one silver trophy to show for it. 

So the Canucks are your number one team, which implies you have fall back teams you like too.  See that’s the difference between loving your home team, and liking them.  I hate the other teams’ prospects and want them all to bustaroo.  I love ours and want them to all be great.  As players age, I do appreciate their skills (like Foppa). As our guys age, I will accept they are crappy.  However, when the guys are young, I know our future success or failure depends on them.  Why, as a fan who loves his team, would I cheer against them?  

 

[Alflives]

1 hour ago, guntrix said:

Except seeing the “glass half full” or “half empty” doesn’t make anyone any more or less of a fan. I personally have yet to engage in this because I’d like to see how Juolevi does this coming season though I agree that it’s a warranted discussion to have given the circumstances. Heck, it’s probably the best even-sided discussion this forum’s got going on atm.

 

I’ll never understand this forum’s knack for jerk-fests and hand-holding. What’s the point of a discussion board if posters take offense to actual discussions?  

Do you love the Canucks, or do you have other teams you like too?  That’s the difference.  It’s a discussion board, but many Canuck’s fans don’t have other teams they cheer for too.  By the definition of fanatic, how can a true fan have more than one team they pull for?

Hence, those who attack our future (our young players) are not truly fans.  IMO.  

[PhillipBlunt]

2 minutes ago, Alflives said:

Do you love the Canucks, or do you have other teams you like too?  That’s the difference.  It’s a discussion board, but many Canuck’s fans don’t have other teams they cheer for too.  By the definition of fanatic, how can a true fan have more than one team they pull for?

Hence, those who attack our future (our young players) are not truly fans.  IMO.  

I've been resisting the urge to wade into this debate, but I feel the need to address a few things.

1. No one has attacked Juolevi here. People have given their opinion (on both sides of the ledger) regarding where he is development wise from a fan perspective. Now if someone stated that "Juolevi is a loser and should be frozen under the rink!", I'd call that an attack. Merely giving an opinion/observation/assumption is not an attack.
2. Being a fan of the sport before a team is always of benefit, as it gives one a greater viewpoint in which to perceive the play and performance of the players on the team that they enjoy. Personally, I love the game of hockey, and do appreciate what various players around the league bring. However, once a game is on that involves the Canucks, my bias is intact. That being said, if an opposing player makes a great play/hit/save, I can (and do) appreciate it, as it makes the game worth watching.
3. Once the playoffs started and I was watching, I pulled for certain teams in each series, and enjoyed it. Was it of the same fever pitch that I do when the Canucks play? No.

I hear what you're saying Alf, and do see that some folks out there tend to focus on the derision side of certain players.