[Trade] Panthers trade F Dave Bolland and F Lawson Crouse to Arizona

[Warhippy]

6 minutes ago, PhillipBlunt said:

But those differences do exist. Gudbranson is a far greater physical force. So if you take Hamhuis' excellent stay at home defensive acumen and combine it with a massive frame and willingness to use it, you do get better.

 

That does wonders for the Canucks reputation for being mentally fragile. All teams had to do before was rough up a couple of players, see no response from the team, and rinse and repeat. Now, I can't wait to see how that tactic plays out.

 

The Canucks do have enough players in the minors that are capable of slotting in somewhat effectively on the blueline now. And they boast a healthy amount of skill and speed, and in Pedan's case, size to go with his speed (north/south).

Actually, we have gaunce Grenier and Subban.  That's not world beating depth.  Yet.  But it's coming.  It's just going to be another season or two.

 

Agreed and yes I like Guddy.  But in terms of what we gained vs lost.  Age is the only serious difference besides size for skill.  Throw in Tryamkin and Pedan and it's a large blue line with snarl; but can they win?  We don't know yet.  See Garrison

 

I just don't see how everyone is thinking we got so much better; when we really haven't.

[Aircool]

3 hours ago, Warhippy said:

I say again.  Almost every team in our division got a lot stronger this off season.

 

We took a small step forward, the other 3 teams in the bottom of our division took strides.

 

If you cannot win in your division you cannot make the playoffs.  Hard to see how we won't fight for every point this year

 

Also, like to point out yet again.  How valuable cap space really is.  Names traded for simply cap space in the last 5 months include

 

Crouse

Chychrun

Tueroveinen

 

And I believe one or two more picks/prospects.

I have to fundamentally disagree with putting Chychrun in that list, I do agree that cap space can be valuable in this way though.

 

The Chychrun trade can only be logically considered a win for Detroit... There really isn't any other conclusion. Arizona made a fair value trade for the draft pick, and then on top of that they took Datsyuk's cap hit for free. I mean they moved 4-5 draft slots from 21/22 to 17 I think. That's not THAT valuable. I would bet a HUGE amount of money that Ken Holland was smiling after the trade call. No doubt in my mind he was extremely happy, because he found the sucker who didn't hold his feet to the fire and gave him great value.

[Warhippy]

7 minutes ago, ForsbergTheGreat said:

Seriously hippy. When it comes to the Canucks with you it's always the sky is falling.  Every move every other teams make is a game changing genius move that hurts Canucks chances.  Every move the Canucks make is the worst and we're screwed. Sure it's your opinion but it's always with a negative bias. Is there any joy in being a Canucks fan. Why even bother? unless you get fulfillment from self pity. 

Seriously Forsberg, when it comes to reality I am realistic.  I don't blow smoke up my teams butt and Apollo them into a pile driver position to give myself false hope.

We had our turn at the top again and we're now rebuilding for it.

 

Every move they make is not the worst but again putting words in my mouth must be a fun Thursday morning activity fr you.  Try yoga or macrame.  Far more relaxing.

 

If you don't like it find the ignore button.  Fact is we need more realistic people around here and less cheerleading because the most upbeat people here are also the same ones that are throwing out the raymond ballard and a 1st for Crosby types.

 

I can't do that, our team is treading water.  Crouse/Bolland is a great deal for the Yotes.  Wish we could have made a similar one.  The division is improving where they need while we fill holes we have to fill before stockpiling depth.

 

it's cyclical.  Don't like it, to bad.  Yotes scored a solid deal and got better where they needed and deeper in their pool doing it.

[Sean Monahan]

@Warhippy did you actually list Bolland as an asset?

[wai_lai416]

1 hour ago, Bigturk8 said:

I agree with most of your post, but the bolded section is debatable.

I would say our D is largely the same. Gudbranson should fill Hammers void and until proven otherwise, I see Larsen in the same light as Weber from last season. Personally, I think our D will be better because I expect Tryamkin to exceed some expectations this season, but that's not concrete and therefor I won't use it for my current assessment.

I would; However, say that our forward group is stronger, specifically the top 6.

Last season:
Sedin - Sedin - Hansen
Baertschi - Sutter - Vrbata

This season:
Sedin - Sedin - Eriksson
Baertschi - Sutter - Hansen

I would argue that Hansen will actually give us better production on the second line than Vrbata did, and Eriksson is an upgrade on Hansen on that first line. It's not a massive improvement, but I do see it as an improvement none the less.
 

sry i don't see any difference in the top 6.. Eriksson will give you 25-30 goals assuming he's healthy.. Hansen prolly could have hit the 25 goals if he was healthy all of last year playing the entire year with the sedin.. now that he's demoted to the second line.. he'll more than likely be back to where he was in his entire NHL career.. a 10% shooter.. it's not a coincidence his shooting percentage shot up to 18% playing with the twins because he's getting the easy shots.. he always had the speed.. just never the finish unless it's served up to him.. always was.. always will be.. which will put him in the 12-15 goal range.. which is exact same production as last year as the injured vrbata.. so do we gain anything in terms of offense?? no not really..

[Sedinery33]

So the Arizona now has approx. 20 Million dollars tied up on players who may never see a game on the team, well Bolland might, but for how long...

 

Guess we know why they bought out Vermette

[Caboose]

Warhippy in this thread 

[aGENT]

22 minutes ago, Warhippy said:

Actually, we have gaunce Grenier and Subban.  That's not world beating depth.  Yet.  But it's coming.  It's just going to be another season or two.

 

Agreed and yes I like Guddy.  But in terms of what we gained vs lost.  Age is the only serious difference besides size for skill.  Throw in Tryamkin and Pedan and it's a large blue line with snarl; but can they win?  We don't know yet.  See Garrison

 

I just don't see how everyone is thinking we got so much better; when we really haven't.

You're forgetting Stetcher, Biega (who will likely be sent down) and possibly Virtanen (if Rodin beats him out for 12th spot).

 

Still not world beating but far from dire.

 

As for the D, at this point Guddy can only be viewed as an upgrade on Hammer IMO. Healthy Edler/Tanev should be on par and ideally Hutton continues to improve. 1st pair is equal, 2nd pair should be improved and 3rd pair should also be improved. 

 

Not it's still not going to likely produce a ton of offense but improved D is definitely improved.

 

5 minutes ago, wai_lai416 said:

sry i don't see any difference in the top 6.. Eriksson will give you 25-30 goals assuming he's healthy.. Hansen prolly could have hit the 25 goals if he was healthy all of last year playing the entire year with the sedin.. now that he's demoted to the second line.. he'll more than likely be back to where he was in his entire NHL career.. a 10% shooter.. it's not a coincidence his shooting percentage shot up to 18% playing with the twins because he's getting the easy shots.. he always had the speed.. just never the finish unless it's served up to him.. always was.. always will be.. which will put him in the 12-15 goal range.. which is exact same production as last year as the injured vrbata.. so do we gain anything in terms of offense?? no not really..

All the more reason to keep Hansen with the twins 5v5 IMO.

 

Sedin, Sedin, Hansen

Baer, Sutter, Eriksson

Etem, Horvat, Dorsett

Rodin/Virtanen, Granlund, Burrows

 

Zalewski

[SamJamIam]

ITT Warhippy talks BS like he's going for a world record

[stawns]

3 hours ago, timberz21 said:

Crouse is overrated.  Looked really good as a 17 years old, but seems like he hasn't progressed since.  Getting rid of Bolland will be huge for Florida in a year or two.

agreed

[HerrDrFunk]

26 minutes ago, Warhippy said:

You take 3 inches and 15 pounds off skip the years and they're mirror images of each other on the ice.  You trade a weber for a weber and say you got better and it doesn't fly.

 

Gudbranson has a high ceiling ahead of him no doubt, but claiming we're somehow deeper or better by swapping a 1-1 set of D men with VERY similar skill sets and offensive ability isn't making it factual.  Results will

So by that logic you would be cool with trading Horvat for Hanzal? After all, they have similar skill sets.

[WhoseTruckWasIt]

20 minutes ago, Warhippy said:

Seriously Forsberg, when it comes to reality I am realistic.  I don't blow smoke up my teams butt and Apollo them into a pile driver position to give myself false hope.

We had our turn at the top again and we're now rebuilding for it.

 

Every move they make is not the worst but again putting words in my mouth must be a fun Thursday morning activity fr you.  Try yoga or macrame.  Far more relaxing.

 

If you don't like it find the ignore button.  Fact is we need more realistic people around here and less cheerleading because the most upbeat people here are also the same ones that are throwing out the raymond ballard and a 1st for Crosby types.

 

I can't do that, our team is treading water.  Crouse/Bolland is a great deal for the Yotes.  Wish we could have made a similar one.  The division is improving where they need while we fill holes we have to fill before stockpiling depth.

 

it's cyclical.  Don't like it, to bad.  Yotes scored a solid deal and got better where they needed and deeper in their pool doing it.

For real?  You'd be happy to trade picks for a cap-dump and a bust?  Somehow I doubt that.  I'm pretty sure that you'd be pissed with Benning regardless of the trade he made.

[elvis15]

1 hour ago, PhillipBlunt said:

So you're going to base a player's talent and ability purely on what a general manager sent the other way? That is beyond ridiculous.

 

Benning and Chiarelli had different needs and traded the players at different times in reference to the season.

And it's your "grammar and spelling were bad" by the way. 

 

To only look at return is a terrible way to judge a player's value, for sure. In this case, it does give a bit of an indicator to who the better defenceman is though. If you follow that up by looking at the players themselves, or any other indicators you want to, Larsson comes out as the better player. 

[WhoseTruckWasIt]

5 minutes ago, elvis15 said:

And it's your "grammar and spelling were bad" by the way. 

 

To only look at return is a terrible way to judge a player's value, for sure. In this case, it does give a bit of an indicator to who the better defenceman is though. If you follow that up by looking at the players themselves, or any other indicators you want to, Larsson comes out as the better player. 

There's no contest now, but they are both young and very experienced.  I think they both have the potential to vastly improve over the next few years, depending on a bunch of factors.

[PhillipBlunt]

4 minutes ago, D-Money said:

Kind of silly to state it like that. Jared Cowen is 25 and even bigger - do you consider him better than Hamhuis? How about Justin Falk (not Faulk)?

Note that ages were also included. A decade's difference in age is significant. Add to that, Gudbranson's deployment in Florida and his draft position, and a straight across wash, to me, doesn't quite fly.

[elvis15]

4 minutes ago, WhoseTruckWasIt said:

There's no contest now, but they are both young and very experienced.  I think they both have the potential to vastly improve over the next few years, depending on a bunch of factors.

Both can improve for sure, but Larsson's ahead and (barring injury or something similar) will likely stay ahead. He's younger, already plays tougher minutes and puts up better offensive numbers. I think fans here on CDC and with the other western teams will come to hate seeing him more frequently on the Oilers.

[Nuckles80]

3 hours ago, timberz21 said:

Crouse is overrated.  Looked really good as a 17 years old, but seems like he hasn't progressed since.  Getting rid of Bolland will be huge for Florida in a year or two.

Crouse has progressed. He was never cast as a top 6 winger, but rather a physical bottoms six with decent hands. He's basically what we want out of Guance, Not sure how you can evaluate his 'progression' as poor given he had 10 more points in junior in 5 less games and 11 points in 9 games (7 goals) in the playoffs. While he didnt 'tear it up' in his d+1 year, he did improve and none of us know what his focus was - perhaps FLA told him to work on his game away from the puck.

 

Crause is going to be a solid NHL'er- and a big man who can skate, like to be physical and has decent hands is always worth the risk.

[Pears]

Let's all just calm down and think about this for a minute. Let's compare players we lost vs players we acquired and hypothetically say no one improves or declines on last year, everyone puts up the same amount of points. 

 

Out: Vrbata, Hamhuis, McCann, Vey, Bartkowski, Weber, Cracknell, Prust = 115 points

 

In: Eriksson, Gudbranson, Rödin*, Megna, Larsen*, Sutter, Rendulic = 83 points

 

Noticeable difference in points? Yes. but Gudbranson, for example, should easily be able to top nine points next season. I included Sutter because he only played 20 games with us, and players like Rödin and Larsen should be able to make up for and possibly top the difference in points. All I'm trying to say is, there is no way we'll be as bad as last year.

[PhillipBlunt]

44 minutes ago, Warhippy said:

Actually, we have gaunce Grenier and Subban.  That's not world beating depth.  Yet.  But it's coming.  It's just going to be another season or two.

I was referring to defensive depth, I get what your saying. The Canucks are in a transition. The ascension that culminated in 2011, is now being met with a valley. Benning has done well to ensure that there are capable players who will fill the player pipeline.

44 minutes ago, Warhippy said:

Agreed and yes I like Guddy.  But in terms of what we gained vs lost.  Age is the only serious difference besides size for skill.  Throw in Tryamkin and Pedan and it's a large blue line with snarl; but can they win?  We don't know yet.  See Garrison

Me too. From a defense perspective, the Canucks did lose Hamhuis' experience, and in turn, his ability to pass on that knowledge to the young corps. That is valuable stuff. However, I think Benning felt that Gudbranson possesses enough leadership and presence to make up for that. This remains to be seen.

 

I do think that Gudbranson will, as I said before, negate most of the liberties teams took against the Canucks, which has a psychological toll, which does effect performance. Not something quantified by Corsi.

 

Having that size and strength will allow faster, more creative players like Juolevi, Subban, and Stecher far more room to make plays than say others had in the past.

 

Garrison is a larger defenseman, but played with little to no snarl.  

44 minutes ago, Warhippy said:

I just don't see how everyone is thinking we got so much better; when we really haven't.

The Canucks did get better though. Some of that was addition by subtraction, some of it was through trades and FA acquisitions. I don't see how they are in the exact same position they were last year though.

[WhoseTruckWasIt]

8 minutes ago, elvis15 said:

Both can improve for sure, but Larsson's ahead and (barring injury or something similar) will likely stay ahead. He's younger, already plays tougher minutes and puts up better offensive numbers. I think fans here on CDC and with the other western teams will come to hate seeing him more frequently on the Oilers.

I hear ya....I'm the one guy that liked the trade for Edmonton.  They moved a problem and got a franchise Dman coming into his prime.  I'm pretty hopeful that GudDman can become a top pairing player though.  Give it 3 years or so.  Meanwhile, Edmonton may continue to be a place where development is challenged.