Rob_Zepp Posted August 31, 2018 Share Posted August 31, 2018 51 minutes ago, tas said: not to nitpick, but the 2016-17 blue jackets compiled 108 points. that would constitute a good team. They were indeed a very good team - he has had that in his career. That was also a year he was a +10. When people like to point out +/- I find it is always a good idea to look at the team the individual was playing for. Gagner's worst three +/- years coincided with years his team went a combined -200. Even Nik Lidstrom would have been a minus on those teams. I am not advocating for Gagner being a "foundational" player for the Canucks or any other team in the NHL, I do, however, believe he is a legitimate NHL player who gets too much abuse on CDC. He can move up and down the lineup and be an nice bridge piece while other youth develops. He is on team friendly term contract with a low AAV with no strings attached. I think you could not ask more of a "placeholder" type player - particularly when you add in he seems like a genuinely nice guy which likely translates into the room. He was sixth in forward points on the team last year....a year in which he had a career low shooting percentage too boot. All I am wondering is why all the hate? He is doing what he has always done. He had never been a franchise changing player, bruising winger etc. etc. He simply is a bonafide NHL player who fills in gaps where he is asked to and seemingly never with a peep of complaint (dude always seems happy). Will he be a part of a Vancouver resurgence to playoff success? Not a chance. That isn't what they need from him right now so neither is that expected. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tas Posted August 31, 2018 Share Posted August 31, 2018 1 minute ago, Rob_Zepp said: They were indeed a very good team - he has had that in his career. That was also a year he was a +10. When people like to point out +/- I find it is always a good idea to look at the team the individual was playing for. Gagner's worst three +/- years coincided with years his team went a combined -200. Even Nik Lidstrom would have been a minus on those teams. I am not advocating for Gagner being a "foundational" player for the Canucks or any other team in the NHL, I do, however, believe he is a legitimate NHL player who gets too much abuse on CDC. He can move up and down the lineup and be an nice bridge piece while other youth develops. He is on team friendly term contract with a low AAV with no strings attached. I think you could not ask more of a "placeholder" type player - particularly when you add in he seems like a genuinely nice guy which likely translates into the room. He was sixth in forward points on the team last year....a year in which he had a career low shooting percentage too boot. All I am wondering is why all the hate? He is doing what he has always done. He had never been a franchise changing player, bruising winger etc. etc. He simply is a bonafide NHL player who fills in gaps where he is asked to and seemingly never with a peep of complaint (dude always seems happy). Will he be a part of a Vancouver resurgence to playoff success? Not a chance. That isn't what they need from him right now so neither is that expected. for what it's worth, I have no strong opinion on gagner either way. he's just a temporary space filler. I just took umbrage with your false claim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob_Zepp Posted August 31, 2018 Share Posted August 31, 2018 Just now, tas said: for what it's worth, I have no strong opinion on gagner either way. he's just a temporary space filler. I just took umbrage with your false claim. Yes, he spent one of his 10 years in the league with an OK team. That makes the claim entirely false and all of his time with Edmonton is forgotten due to that one season. Thanks for that clarity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aGENT Posted August 31, 2018 Share Posted August 31, 2018 11 minutes ago, Rob_Zepp said: They were indeed a very good team - he has had that in his career. That was also a year he was a +10. When people like to point out +/- I find it is always a good idea to look at the team the individual was playing for. Gagner's worst three +/- years coincided with years his team went a combined -200. Even Nik Lidstrom would have been a minus on those teams. I am not advocating for Gagner being a "foundational" player for the Canucks or any other team in the NHL, I do, however, believe he is a legitimate NHL player who gets too much abuse on CDC. He can move up and down the lineup and be an nice bridge piece while other youth develops. He is on team friendly term contract with a low AAV with no strings attached. I think you could not ask more of a "placeholder" type player - particularly when you add in he seems like a genuinely nice guy which likely translates into the room. He was sixth in forward points on the team last year....a year in which he had a career low shooting percentage too boot. All I am wondering is why all the hate? He is doing what he has always done. He had never been a franchise changing player, bruising winger etc. etc. He simply is a bonafide NHL player who fills in gaps where he is asked to and seemingly never with a peep of complaint (dude always seems happy). Will he be a part of a Vancouver resurgence to playoff success? Not a chance. That isn't what they need from him right now so neither is that expected. I've been trying to illustrate that point since before we signed him...good luck. He's shown up and done exactly what his middling pay and term dictate. Be a solid veteran stop gap the coach can trust, who can play all three positions in a pinch, up and down all four lines and be expendable when no longer needed. Nobody's trying to sell him as a savior or all star, nor is his pay or term that of a player anyone should expect that of. Is he a player to get excited about? Not really. But I have no idea why he gets all the hate either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ForsbergTheGreat Posted August 31, 2018 Share Posted August 31, 2018 49 minutes ago, Rob_Zepp said: No more value than any other player's career totals. Point is, dude is still under 30 and has never played on a good team in his career. I don't view him as a long term solution for the Vancouver Canucks but as a bridge player to allow the youth to develop, I don't see why he gets all the hate. Guy is a legit NHL player who has seemingly harmed some people's sense of being to the degree he gets massive amounts of hate (name manipulation etc.) on CDC. Just seems to outweigh reality. You’re living in the past. What gagner did 5 years ago has no impact on what gagner provides us today. He gets hate because he’s no longer affective. It happens. Bobby Ryan is top 4 in total points in the 2005 draft. Should the sens have less hate on his because of that? Hockey teams and fans have a mentality of what have you done for me lately. And with gagner he’s done nothing for us. So the hate on him bringing nothing to the table for us is justifiable. 49 minutes ago, Rob_Zepp said: Yes I did know that about Sutter. He also has more than Luongo or Price too. Point? The point is pretty clear. Past points have little impact on player value today. Bring up “past” career points in a discussion of why people hate him “today” is a strange way to go about things. The two are not mutually exclusive. gagner brings nothing to this team that we don’t have. That’s whys he’s come expendable. JB went out and found better bottom 6 depth and with the way our youth have progressed faster than expected so we have no need for him in the top 6. We have plenty of mentors so really what does he bring a team like ours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlastPast Posted August 31, 2018 Share Posted August 31, 2018 Plus there is the fact he's making a shade over 3 mil. What do people expect for that kind of money ? I think there are people who don't get that the salary cap has gone up substantially over the past few years. It's almost as if they got a static dollar value in their head back when the cap was at 64 million and never adjusted it upward with the rising cap. Here's a heads up, what you got for 3 mil. 8 years ago will now cost a fair bit more. You could say the same for the MDZ deal ( among others not only on this team). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-AJ- Posted August 31, 2018 Author Share Posted August 31, 2018 1 hour ago, BlastPast said: Plus there is the fact he's making a shade over 3 mil. What do people expect for that kind of money ? I think there are people who don't get that the salary cap has gone up substantially over the past few years. It's almost as if they got a static dollar value in their head back when the cap was at 64 million and never adjusted it upward with the rising cap. Here's a heads up, what you got for 3 mil. 8 years ago will now cost a fair bit more. You could say the same for the MDZ deal ( among others not only on this team). I strongly agree with this sentiment, but still think Gagner should do a bit more to earn his salary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smithers joe Posted August 31, 2018 Share Posted August 31, 2018 as a place holder, my question is, who is he better than? whose place is he holding? is he a 2nd, 3rd or 4th liner? is he a holder of gaudette's spot, granlund's, pettersson's, virtanen's, goldobin's or baertschi's? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob_Zepp Posted August 31, 2018 Share Posted August 31, 2018 1 hour ago, ForsbergTheGreat said: You’re living in the past. What gagner did 5 years ago has no impact on what gagner provides us today. He gets hate because he’s no longer affective. It happens. Bobby Ryan is top 4 in total points in the 2005 draft. Should the sens have less hate on his because of that? Hockey teams and fans have a mentality of what have you done for me lately. And with gagner he’s done nothing for us. So the hate on him bringing nothing to the table for us is justifiable. The point is pretty clear. Past points have little impact on player value today. Bring up “past” career points in a discussion of why people hate him “today” is a strange way to go about things. The two are not mutually exclusive. gagner brings nothing to this team that we don’t have. That’s whys he’s come expendable. JB went out and found better bottom 6 depth and with the way our youth have progressed faster than expected so we have no need for him in the top 6. We have plenty of mentors so really what does he bring a team like ours. OK, you don't like him. Fair enough. Lately was he was top 6 in forward scoring for Canucks last year and wasn't horrible defensively on a horrible defensive team. He is not a big piece of anything moving forward or otherwise but until one of the "kids" knocks down the door and replaces him, I still fail to see the harm of having him around. Saying he brings "nothing" is disingenuous in my mind - he is a legit NHL player and still on the right side of 30. He can skate, take draws and have some decent offensive tendencies. He is not an abrasive player at all so perhaps that is what people don't like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tas Posted August 31, 2018 Share Posted August 31, 2018 1 hour ago, Rob_Zepp said: Yes, he spent one of his 10 years in the league with an OK team. That makes the claim entirely false and all of his time with Edmonton is forgotten due to that one season. Thanks for that clarity. that's not how truth and language work and you know it. don't be that guy, robb. I'm one of the people here that's normally on your side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlastPast Posted August 31, 2018 Share Posted August 31, 2018 I sometimes feel like some fans don't appreciate the "average" player appropriately and Sam G. is an example of that. A lot of fans worship the top 20-25% of players but anybody below that is a bum who shouldn't make a dime over league min. (I'm being facetious but that is sometimes how it comes across). Some players are just average or even below that but still have value and are useful in an appropriate role. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tas Posted August 31, 2018 Share Posted August 31, 2018 17 minutes ago, smithers joe said: as a place holder, my question is, who is he better than? whose place is he holding? is he a 2nd, 3rd or 4th liner? is he a holder of gaudette's spot, granlund's, pettersson's, virtanen's, goldobin's or baertschi's? I would say goldobin and granlund are competing for the same spots as gagner, and if they can't prove that they deserve it more than he does in training camp, preseason, practice and the gym, then they don't deserve it. you'd agree that gagner sets a fairly low bar, right? so those guys better be able to beat him out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob_Zepp Posted August 31, 2018 Share Posted August 31, 2018 Just now, tas said: that's not how truth and language work and you know it. don't be that guy, robb. I'm one of the people here that's normally on your side. I don't think of things as "sides" @tas - I just go post to post, thread to thread. My point was he has spent almost his entire career on poor teams - you are pedantically correct that he had one good team/season in his career but it doesn't distract from point his teams have been poor and that can play a role in someone's career totals. Anyway, sorry I got snippy with you - it wasn't the intent but when I re-read what I posted I come across that way big time. Next I will be posting like Toews - that days comes, I am out of here. So, sincere apology. Although some apparently disagree, I don't think he is a "useless" player at all. He remains exactly what he has always been - no more or no less. He was a top six forward in terms of production with a poor team last year (Vancouver) and will likely be again this season unless he gets out-competed for a job by one of the emerging young guns. His tenure with Canucks likely ends at TDL this year but his tenure seems to have brought more hate than required - at least in my opinion. I really don't mind being an outlier in terms of that opinion - happens in most threads for me so pretty used to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saved_by_Jesus Posted August 31, 2018 Share Posted August 31, 2018 45 minutes ago, Rob_Zepp said: I really don't mind being an outlier in terms of that opinion - happens in most threads for me so pretty used to it. Being reasonable in CDC = outlier Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kootenay Gold Posted August 31, 2018 Share Posted August 31, 2018 50 minutes ago, Rob_Zepp said: I really don't mind being an outlier in terms of that opinion - happens in most threads for me so pretty used to it. 3 minutes ago, Saved_by_Jesus said: Being reasonable in CDC = outlier Oh the joys of posting to a rabid fan base! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
higgyfan Posted August 31, 2018 Share Posted August 31, 2018 2 hours ago, aGENT said: I've been trying to illustrate that point since before we signed him...good luck. He's shown up and done exactly what his middling pay and term dictate. Be a solid veteran stop gap the coach can trust, who can play all three positions in a pinch, up and down all four lines and be expendable when no longer needed. Nobody's trying to sell him as a savior or all star, nor is his pay or term that of a player anyone should expect that of. Is he a player to get excited about? Not really. But I have no idea why he gets all the hate either. Nuck fans have always had a whipping boy. Yet another skill that Gags provides: sheltering the younger players from the landslide of caustic barbs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aGENT Posted August 31, 2018 Share Posted August 31, 2018 4 minutes ago, higgyfan said: Nuck fans have always had a whipping boy. Yet another skill that Gags provides: sheltering the younger players from the landslide of caustic barbs. Indeed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Putgolzin Posted August 31, 2018 Share Posted August 31, 2018 22 minutes ago, higgyfan said: Nuck fans have always had a whipping boy. Yet another skill that Gags provides: sheltering the younger players from the landslide of caustic barbs. What I would give for my old 53-point-season-but-I-can't-stand-him-cause-he-always-falls-down whipping boy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.I.A.H.N Posted August 31, 2018 Share Posted August 31, 2018 I don't get hate for your players on your team anyways...……... Whether it be Edler, Gagner, Eriksson, or who ever The guys goes out and does the best he can do every night....for that night We seldom know about small injuries or long term injuries a player plays with What we do know is he is the best we have for that position, and if we had better according to the GM and Coach I would expect they would have that guy there...….. Not everyone can improve, not everyone can fight, not everyone can speak out..... He is who he is He is an NHL hockey player, who is the best the Canucks could get, in their opinion, and under those circumstances...…. Why hate the player? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alflives Posted August 31, 2018 Share Posted August 31, 2018 8 minutes ago, janisahockeynut said: I don't get hate for your players on your team anyways...……... Whether it be Edler, Gagner, Eriksson, or who ever The guys goes out and does the best he can do every night....for that night We seldom know about small injuries or long term injuries a player plays with What we do know is he is the best we have for that position, and if we had better according to the GM and Coach I would expect they would have that guy there...….. Not everyone can improve, not everyone can fight, not everyone can speak out..... He is who he is He is an NHL hockey player, who is the best the Canucks could get, in their opinion, and under those circumstances...…. Why hate the player? I agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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