Jake Virtanen | #18 | RW

[aGENT]

You know you don't have much to go on to defend Virtanen when all you ever do is post face palm pics.

No stats, no variables, no nothing from JV supporters. But that's none of my business. 

No,  I think it's more a case of that there's only so much you can say in the face of such an abject, premature, over reactionary and ignorant statement.

And in fairness, a picture is worth a thousand words

[guntrix]

No,  I think it's more a case of that there's only so much you can say in the face of such an abject, premature, over reactionary and ignorant statement.

And in fairness, a picture is worth a thousand words

Right, because what's been said is completely ignorant.

I'd welcome a good debate but it's impossible to establish one if one side only has hypotheticals and statements about potential to back up their claims.

[canuckledraggin]

You know you don't have much to go on to defend Virtanen when all you ever do is post face palm pics.

No stats, no variables, no nothing from JV supporters. But that's none of my business. 

Go look up games played, TOI, quality of linemates, quality of competition, hits, goals,assists and all that corsi crap. And you still won't have a clue about who the better player is for a couple of years. 

Making assertions about 19 year olds after a handful of games does deserve an epic facepalm.

[Alflives]

You know you don't have much to go on to defend Virtanen when all you ever do is post face palm pics.

No stats, no variables, no nothing from JV supporters. But that's none of my business. 

these are great!  I'm still giggling like a little girl - Nylander and Ehlers like.

[hatedkid666]

Virtanen has like 100 hits tonight 80 of them being big ones

[uselessstats]

Right, because what's been said is completely ignorant.

I'd welcome a good debate but it's impossible to establish one if one side only has hypotheticals and statements about potential to back up their claims.

in order to engage in a debate there has to be more to the discussion than just hyperbole and rhetoric.  You post offers nothing more than flowery words like "monstrous mistake", "miles better", and "everyone is too blind".  Not really anything to base a discussion on really, as it's just one person's exaggerated opinion of what the future may look like.

 

Why would you expect a "good debate" when all your post is is the message board equivalent of a two year old's tantrum?

[DownUndaCanuck]

Got to give credit to him, Virtanen had a great physical game and gets his first NHL point but that penalty could have easily cost us the game and if that's anyone else, he gets benched.

The kid is still nowhere near NHL ready and needs to go back to junior. Just look over to McCann for a direct comparison. Same coach, same team, McCann's even playing with less offensively skilled linemates and he's shining whereas Virtanen has been good physically but brought no offence to the table. McCann needs to stay, Jake needs to go and hone his offensive skills. Throwing hits isn't enough to keep you in an NHL lineup anymore, and certainly shouldn't have been enough to be a top-10 pick (but let's forget about that now).

Give Virtanen a couple more games. He would essentially have to have a McCann-like game to stay in the NHL for the rest of the season IMO, because hitting isn't enough.

[Mr.DirtyDangles]

Got to give credit to him, Virtanen had a great physical game and gets his first NHL point but that penalty could have easily cost us the game and if that's anyone else, he gets benched.

The kid is still nowhere near NHL ready and needs to go back to junior. Just look over to McCann for a direct comparison. Same coach, same team, McCann's even playing with less offensively skilled linemates and he's shining whereas Virtanen has been good physically but brought no offence to the table. McCann needs to stay, Jake needs to go and hone his offensive skills. Throwing hits isn't enough to keep you in an NHL lineup anymore, and certainly shouldn't have been enough to be a top-10 pick (but let's forget about that now).

Give Virtanen a couple more games. He would essentially have to have a McCann-like game to stay in the NHL for the rest of the season IMO, because hitting isn't enough.

IMHO the Only way he is going to truly hone his offensive game is buy playing against the big boys. Going back to junior will help zero in his progression playing against lesser talent honestly.  He can handle the physicality and the touch and finesse will come. I see him doing exactly what Bo did,  work his way game by game into a mainstay.

McCann's play is throwing a huge wrench into JB and TL's plans. There is  going to be some serious nail chewing going on in the war room.  When Higgy comes back everything changes again.

Could be a hell of a lot worse

 

 

[Winter Soldier]

Got to give credit to him, Virtanen had a great physical game and gets his first NHL point but that penalty could have easily cost us the game and if that's anyone else, he gets benched.

The kid is still nowhere near NHL ready and needs to go back to junior. Just look over to McCann for a direct comparison. Same coach, same team, McCann's even playing with less offensively skilled linemates and he's shining whereas Virtanen has been good physically but brought no offence to the table. McCann needs to stay, Jake needs to go and hone his offensive skills. Throwing hits isn't enough to keep you in an NHL lineup anymore, and certainly shouldn't have been enough to be a top-10 pick (but let's forget about that now).

Give Virtanen a couple more games. He would essentially have to have a McCann-like game to stay in the NHL for the rest of the season IMO, because hitting isn't enough.

How many goals did Horvat score in the first half of last season?

[Gaudette Celly]

 

The kid is still nowhere near NHL ready and needs to go back to junior. Just look over to McCann for a direct comparison. Same coach, same team, McCann's even playing with less offensively skilled linemates and he's shining whereas Virtanen has been good physically but brought no offence to the table. McCann needs to stay, Jake needs to go and hone his offensive skills. Throwing hits isn't enough to keep you in an NHL lineup anymore, and certainly shouldn't have been enough to be a top-10 pick (but let's forget about that now).

Give Virtanen a couple more games. He would essentially have to have a McCann-like game to stay in the NHL for the rest of the season IMO, because hitting isn't enough.

When offensive stats are clearly your sole determinant of whether a player is NHL-ready, it makes sense why you just don't get it.  Guess what -- there isn't one cookie-cutter mold of player that everyone is required to fit.

Jake got his first pro and first NHL points before Bo, fwiw.

[filthycanuck]

If Jake stays and ends the year with 15-20 pts but hits everything that moves, Im cool with that. His offence will come in time but hes bringing something that fat boy Kassian didnt, and thats truculence.

[filthycanuck]

This is the most intelligent thing that you've posted and I agree that he and McCann need to get more minutes before we know what type of players that we have in these 2. We still don't have a clue what they are capable of, because of their deployment. I don't blame WD, he's trying to protect these kids, but after hearing his comments on the radio today, it sounds like he is ready to give them a bigger role.  http://www.tsn.ca/radio/vancouver-1040-i-1410/desjardins-we-always-like-to-roll-4-lines-1.381661

If you look at the team, both of the kids are given spots under the 23 man roster. Higgins comes back and probably takes Baertschi's spot on LW and if you want to replace one of the kids you need a RW and/or a Center from Utica, to come up. 

Vey is the obvious choice for C. Green has been playing him lots and he had a nice snipe last game, but he's already in the minors. In my mind you leave him there as long as you can, because he's not an upgrade over McCann.

Jensen and Grenier are the choices for RW. So then you have to decide whether either of those players are better than Jake. In my estimation they are all equal in skill , but Jake is more physical.

If your worried about burning a year from the ELC, there's always the argument that it doesn't matter as much, because they won't be putting up big numbers, therefore they won't demand as much come their next contract negotiation.

I feel as though the succession plan is to put the kids in now and speed up the rebuild by a year or 2. When you have leaders like the Sedins on your team, you want to get your top prospects with them early and often.

 

I agree, thats the biggest point of them staying, who are they going to bring up? Our 4th line had 6pts with McCann, Vey will NEVER match that production, simply put, hes a downgrade, a massive one at that compared to McCann.

To me the ELC doesn't matter if the kids are contributing, management owes it to the fans to bring the best possible product. If they weren't producing, fine, 9 game look send them down, thats ok. But the thing is McCann and Virtanen have brought something to the table in their own way, and there arent players in the farm that provide significant upgrades over them. These young players, Hutton, McCann, Virtanen are keeping fans interested in this team, could you imagine the uproar if Vey comes back to the big club in expense of McCann?

 

[DownUndaCanuck]

When offensive stats are clearly your sole determinant of whether a player is NHL-ready, it makes sense why you just don't get it.  Guess what -- there isn't one cookie-cutter mold of player that everyone is required to fit.

Jake got his first pro and first NHL points before Bo, fwiw.

Someone please tell me what Virtanen brings to the table RIGHT NOW? He hits, that's it. He doesn't play fantastically defensively, kill penalties or win faceoffs. Those are the extra attributes Horvat had in his 9 game stint that kept him around.

Virtanen skates well and hits. He doesn't kill penalties, obviously doesn't take draws and in today's NHL that's not enough - rookie or not. Why have a hitter playing 10 minutes a night when we could develop this kid slowly in junior and bring up someone who brings more to the table like Gaunce or even Cracknell? They are both big bodies who can hit, but also kill penalties and more importantly, score NHL level goals.

Offensive ability is nothing when it comes to judging whether someone's NHL ready or not. There are some big intangeables I think of, which include good defence, killing penalties, hard hitting, generating offensive chances and faceoffs. Horvat could do 4 of those 5 in his stint last season which is why he stuck. McCann has shown he can score goals and play solid defence AS WELL AS perform really well in the faceoff dot. That's why he should stick around. What else does Virtanen bring apart from hitting?

Sorry but that's just not good enough YET. Give him time, let him marinate in junior and don't bring him up until he can do more for this team.

[CanucksJay]

 

Someone please tell me what Virtanen brings to the table RIGHT NOW? He hits, that's it. He doesn't play fantastically defensively, kill penalties or win faceoffs. Those are the extra attributes Horvat had in his 9 game stint that kept him around.

Virtanen skates well and hits. He doesn't kill penalties, obviously doesn't take draws and in today's NHL that's not enough - rookie or not. Why have a hitter playing 10 minutes a night when we could develop this kid slowly in junior and bring up someone who brings more to the table like Gaunce or even Cracknell? They are both big bodies who can hit, but also kill penalties and more importantly, score NHL level goals.

Offensive ability is nothing when it comes to judging whether someone's NHL ready or not. There are some big intangeables I think of, which include good defence, killing penalties, hard hitting, generating offensive chances and faceoffs. Horvat could do 4 of those 5 in his stint last season which is why he stuck. McCann has shown he can score goals and play solid defence AS WELL AS perform really well in the faceoff dot. That's why he should stick around. What else does Virtanen bring apart from hitting?

Sorry but that's just not good enough YET. Give him time, let him marinate in junior and don't bring him up until he can do more for this team.

I agree with parts of what you are saying. Truthfully, Cracknell at this point brings more than Virtanen. It may not be fair for players like  Cracknell and Gaunce  but I believe that management is not only looking at Virtanen's immediate play in comparison to other players but also looking at the future potential if groomed the right way if he stays up and plays with the big club. At the end of the day, we want the team to do well and for the team to do well, we need the 7th overall pick to turn out like a 7th overall or better. I don't think management wants to chance that by sending him to Junior to work it out on his own. I think they want direct involvement in controlled situations (playing time, linemates, deployment) to ensure that they are doing everything they can so that he reaches his potential which is a big, fast, physical player that can also out the puck in the net. His ceiling is much higher than Cracknell or Gaunce and I think management is trying everything they can to help him reach that ceiling which in turn will be better for the club in the future. 

If based on current merit, I agree with you. Gaunce and Cracknell should be ahead of Virtanen. If looking at the bigger picture and overall team success in the future, I think Virtanen needs to stay up and learn the pro game the right way from solid vets that we currently have. 

[TOMapleLaughs]

Virtanen could kill penalties quite easily.  He could be on the power play and score easily.  And his hitting shouldn't be irrelevant, since now that Prust is out, there's not much physicality to be had on the team's group of forwards.

We should be patient with his development just like we were patient with Horvat's.  If he's sent down to junior, then he learns nothing new.  Esp. in Calgary.

If Cracknell comes in, it's to replace McCann as 4th line center.

Gaunce is developing as a depth winger it would seem.  He's still too slow.  He might be more adept to the NHL game than Bartschi though.  At least he won't fall down as much.

[aGENT]

Go look up games played, TOI, quality of linemates, quality of competition, hits, goals,assists and all that corsi crap. And you still won't have a clue about who the better player is for a couple of years. 

Making assertions about 19 year olds after a handful of games does deserve an epic facepalm.

 

When offensive stats are clearly your sole determinant of whether a player is NHL-ready, it makes sense why you just don't get it.  Guess what -- there isn't one cookie-cutter mold of player that everyone is required to fit.

Jake got his first pro and first NHL points before Bo, fwiw.

 

 

Someone please tell me what Virtanen brings to the table RIGHT NOW? He hits, that's it. He doesn't play fantastically defensively, kill penalties or win faceoffs. Those are the extra attributes Horvat had in his 9 game stint that kept him around.

Virtanen skates well and hits. He doesn't kill penalties, obviously doesn't take draws and in today's NHL that's not enough - rookie or not. Why have a hitter playing 10 minutes a night when we could develop this kid slowly in junior and bring up someone who brings more to the table like Gaunce or even Cracknell? They are both big bodies who can hit, but also kill penalties and more importantly, score NHL level goals.

Offensive ability is nothing when it comes to judging whether someone's NHL ready or not. There are some big intangeables I think of, which include good defence, killing penalties, hard hitting, generating offensive chances and faceoffs. Horvat could do 4 of those 5 in his stint last season which is why he stuck. McCann has shown he can score goals and play solid defence AS WELL AS perform really well in the faceoff dot. That's why he should stick around. What else does Virtanen bring apart from hitting?

Sorry but that's just not good enough YET. Give him time, let him marinate in junior and don't bring him up until he can do more for this team.

As has already been noted, if you look at his TOI, quality of linemates, QOC, corsi etc, you'll perhaps see that he brings a bit more than 'just hits' (though this team DESPERATELY needs the physicality he brings FWIW, especially now with Prust being out).

He's creating a lot of space out there and is creating a fair amount offensive chances, particularly given the TOI he's largely received. Even if they're not converting to points...yet. IMO, it's only a matter of time as he both adapts and gets more opportunity that all the space he's creating for line mates and offensive chances he's creating on his own with his speed, physicality and IMO above average passing, start to translate to points.

As for McCann, I'm not even particularly sure why you're bringing him up. That he's had a great start and put up some points is a good thing but it has little bearing on how well Virtanen has played. Virtanen's also not a centre so I'm not sure why your mentioning faceoffs either (though he actually won one he took in the Detroit game the other night and is at 100% FYI).

Edited October 28, 2015 by J.R.

[Blömqvist]

 

Virtanen could kill penalties quite easily.  He could be on the power play and score easily.  And his hitting shouldn't be irrelevant, since now that Prust is out, there's not much physicality to be had on the team's group of forwards.

We should be patient with his development just like we were patient with Horvat's.  If he's sent down to junior, then he learns nothing new.  Esp. in Calgary.

If Cracknell comes in, it's to replace McCann as 4th line center.

Gaunce is developing as a depth winger it would seem.  He's still too slow.  He might be more adept to the NHL game than Bartschi though.  At least he won't fall down as much.

I was thinking just that. He could score a lot more goals if he plays in the right situations. He could be a shorthanded threat with his speed on the PK, and with his lethal shot, why not set him up as the second defenseman on the #2PP unit and have Hutton feeding him one-timers?

I don't think management wants to put him or McCann in situations where they are expected to score. They definitely are preaching patience and letting the young guys play their games to the simplest of means, thereby allowing them to learn the pro routine and play the pro game at a pro pace. As you said, it worked for Horvat's development last year and now he is starting to get a bit more responsibility with PK and PP roles, along with a decent amount of minutes against quality competition. We as fans just need patience and to lower our expectations.

[Boudrias]

Likely both Virtanen and McCann get 40 games. It is not about what Virtanen brings to the team as much now as in the future.

His physical play is impressive and it keeps him in the line up as he gets comfortable in the NHL. Fans should be encouraged.

[sharbinder]

 

Someone please tell me what Virtanen brings to the table RIGHT NOW? He hits, that's it. He doesn't play fantastically defensively, kill penalties or win faceoffs. Those are the extra attributes Horvat had in his 9 game stint that kept him around.

Virtanen skates well and hits. He doesn't kill penalties, obviously doesn't take draws and in today's NHL that's not enough - rookie or not. Why have a hitter playing 10 minutes a night when we could develop this kid slowly in junior and bring up someone who brings more to the table like Gaunce or even Cracknell? They are both big bodies who can hit, but also kill penalties and more importantly, score NHL level goals.

Offensive ability is nothing when it comes to judging whether someone's NHL ready or not. There are some big intangeables I think of, which include good defence, killing penalties, hard hitting, generating offensive chances and faceoffs. Horvat could do 4 of those 5 in his stint last season which is why he stuck. McCann has shown he can score goals and play solid defence AS WELL AS perform really well in the faceoff dot. That's why he should stick around. What else does Virtanen bring apart from hitting?

Sorry but that's just not good enough YET. Give him time, let him marinate in junior and don't bring him up until he can do more for this team.

 

Does anyone recall the playoffs against Calgary in April. When ever they would come down on the defense after a dump in. All of our Dmen including Tanev/Bieksa would panic & fumble the puck or turn it over trying to make a quick pass. Well if you go back & watch the 2nd/3rd period of the Montreal game, this is exactly what the Canadiens Dmen were doing. Jake instills fear & intimidation to the other team. They do not want to get hit that hard over and over again. So in turn it creates space for the other players to make plays & to get quality shots on net. Something without Jake, we do not have.

 

Check.... & Mate.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Gaudette Celly]

Someone please tell me what Virtanen brings to the table RIGHT NOW?

You could figure that out for yourself if you were to start watching games instead of the statlines.  Believe it or not, the value of players in the game of hockey involves more than just who the last one is to touch the puck before it goes into the net, and Virtanen does have that proven ability as well.  It's been repeated throughout 500+ pages here what Virtanen brings currently, plus what skills and significant upside he brings for the future.  Get yourself a stream or something and see what happens when he's out there -- he IS making an impact "RIGHT NOW" and will do so even more once he gets settled into the league.

Speaking of statlines, Virtanen has the same number of points as Sam Bennett, despite Bennett having played two more games and getting 50% more icetime, including over a minute of powerplay time per game.  Bennett was considered by many to be the top prospect going into the draft but he's not "a hitter", so by your standard he is bringing even less, absolutely nothing "to the table"?