[PGT] Another loss...now 7-7-6

[Robongo]

30 minutes ago, oldnews said:

You're rewriting a story without any context bongo.

Cap space.  Ehrhoff and his eventually bought out 40 million deal (because he's nothing resembling the player the Sedins made of him) - or Bieksa.  That was the option - one or the other - you couldn't have/afford both.  So what exactly is your point?  That's not a systematic dismantling - it's simple reality - and it doesn't fit your oversimplified narrative.

Garrison or Vrbata?  You don't have the cap to sign Vrbata unless you deal Garrison - nevermind that Garrison wasn't part of the 2011 superb core you were alluding to being dismantled.  Is Vrbata part of the subtle tank?  Your point just isn't very clear.  I realize you think next to nothing of Sbisa, but JB doesn't share your take, so when he added Sbisa to the blueline, I doubt he considered it a significant setback.  Likewise with replacing Bieksa with Bartkowski (btw, I was in complete support of the decision to deal Bieksa for a 2nd - if you read the actual trade thread as opposed to attempting to put straw words in my mouth, you'll find that).

I love Bieksa, but was never under the impression that he hadn't declined.  I not only suggested that it was time to deal him, but also that he just hadn't looked himself for quite some time, particularly his mobility after a couple serious cuts to his legs..  I'm not game to pile on the compulsive hate train around here, but again, feel free to quote me being his biggest 'apologist'. 

The blueline has not been "dismantled".   Most people here - especially the tank crew ironically - are calling for it - wanting Hamhuis and Edler shipped.  The fact that 3 of the top 4 remain here doesn't exactly make your claim.

Actually, anyone that had watched Bieksa earn his very first ridiculous overpaid contract, which was a one off before his 2011 deal ,was sounding the alarm that his 2011 year was a one off. Bieksa the year before was complete garbage and he earned his 4.6 mil deal because of Hamhuis. Yes, he played well, but he has shown since that that was a complete one off. There was in fact , enough room to resign Ehrhoff, but Gillis gave him the ultimatum to sign for Bieksa value and be a "team player" or bounce.

Garrison or Vrbata was the choice you say?  Well, again you're forcing your own narrative that isn't based on reality. It wasn't Garrison or Vrbata, it was actually Garrison or Miller. We hired a coach that thought he could make something out of a Linden Vey , which we all know was a complete and utter failure. They decided to lose depth on the blue line to go with a goaltender in which the GM was more than familiar with, JB has openly alluded to this fact, but please continue to claim it was Garrison or Vrbata .

Sbisa was a complete disaster, every single metric both regular stats/advanced stat and the eye test confirmed it. Just because you are in complete denial of this doesn't make it any less true. Regardless, your comments about Bieksa's "cuts" as blame for his decline demonstrate you have not played a lick of sports in your life. You are a keyboard warrior , if you've gone through a surgery and attempted to play sports after you would see how ridiculous your statement was. Likewise, if you asked Bieksa what he thought of your lame ass assessment that he was worse off from his injuries he would laugh in your face

The blueline HAS been dismantled, actually. In 2011 our Top pairing was Hamhuis/Bieksa, Edler/Ehrhoff.

Do we have Bieksa? Nope! Do we have Ehrhoff? Nope.  So your 3/4  of our top 4 that you claim is complete and utter crap. We have 3 top 4 defenceman this year at best and Hamhuis is no longer capable of carrying a pairing on his own. We literally had the top offensive blueline in the entire league, but no , it wasn't dismantled, I'm just a dimwit and you're the smartest person on this board

[Hairy Kneel]

Lots of terrible hockey we've been playing this trip, lots of finger pointing and second guessing by everyone. 

It's hard to imagine that these sentiments haven't rolled into the dressing room...We need Prust and Sutter and we need Edler and Hammer to find their game back.

The shorthanded goals against are the key danger signals of an unprepared team. Mental errors like that and line changes...fixable things. Keystone cop stuff. 

[ice orca]

8 hours ago, LaBamba said:

As bad as we are, games at hand aside we are still only 5 points out of 2nd in the western conference.

Its still early, there is so much more season to play.

The panic is unwarranted. 

Look at the next bunch of games, Hawks, Devils at home on a back to back then a roadie Wild, Dallas, Ducks, Kings. We could be challenging Edmonton after that.

[ice orca]

8 hours ago, dura_mater said:

I've heard Chychrun is suppose to be better than Ekblad.  I realise Matthews will be a great #1 center but I'd take the #1 defenseman.  I can't recall if the Canucks have ever had a #1 defenseman.

Chychrun is starting to slide now, Cox has him at 5 as well as a couple of others early yet tho. If you have the chance get Matthews you get him, most pundits have him on the same level as McJesus, Eichel. Pick your poison I guess either would be a dream addition. Lots of hockey to go yet this year. We can start to see the holes this team has on the d-line as well as a true replacement for Hank.

[Shift-4]

Slept on it.

Still feeling horrid

The trials of a Canuck fan  lol

[stawns]

I actually thought it was a somewhat entertaining game last night.  Hutton had another poor game, and I think the grind of his first big road trip is wearing on him.  However, I thought all the other young guys played well last night, and it was the best game for Virt and baer in awhile.  

Hoping Luca is ok and was taken out as a pre-caution.  I hate the NHL now when you make a solid body check you have to fight.....especially a goon.  The league should treat that like a hit to the head, imo.  Up until he had to leave, he was the best dman for the Nucks.

despite the final score, I thought the Nucks played with some purpose and energy.  I said at the start of the season that I could stomach losses if they play hard........I can stomach last night's loss.

[Alflives]

2 minutes ago, stawns said:

I actually thought it was a somewhat entertaining game last night.  Hutton had another poor game, and I think the grind of his first big road trip is wearing on him.  However, I thought all the other young guys played well last night, and it was the best game for Virt and baer in awhile.  

Hoping Luca is ok and was taken out as a pre-caution.  I hate the NHL now when you make a solid body check you have to fight.....especially a goon.  The league should treat that like a hit to the head, imo.  Up until he had to leave, he was the best dman for the Nucks.

despite the final score, I thought the Nucks played with some purpose and energy.  I said at the start of the season that I could stomach losses if they play hard........I can stomach last night's loss.

The thing is one of his teammates should have stepped up and fought the goon for him.  When there is a big hit, all the players (on both teams) know what's coming.  One of our guys, should have stepped up for his mate; it's that simple.  We are not tough enough.  I don't mean fighting tough. 

[cbdoubleu]

Down to 5 D, missing key guys in Sutter and Vrbata, and missing a guy like Prust in a physical game like this, the Canucks did all they could. Pavy won this one for the Jets early on, and we just didn't have any push left in the 3rd period.

Tough come home 1-4-2 feeling good about anything. Couldn't kill a penalty when we needed to. Power play was a momentum killer. The shorties we gave up. Lost at least 4-5 points in the final minutes of 3 different games. The hardest part is despite how poorly they played in key stretches of games, they were in every one of them and found ways to not get it done.

 

 

[Bang Bang Boogie]

10 hours ago, oldnews said:

But, but...

AV 'never gave the young guys a chance'.

AV 'defended the 0-0 tie'.

AV 'couldn't make adjustments'.

AV 'lost the room'.

AV 'didn't hold the vets accountable'.

Etc, etc, ad infinitum.

 

The Rangers have a much better roster than the Canucks.  They have an elite #1 defenseman and goalie, along with consistent scorers throughout their lineup.  They are contenders built to win now, and the Canucks are a team in transition. Switch AV and WD, I don't think the results will be much different.

[stawns]

12 hours ago, DeNiro said:

Willie has been given his task by management. It almost seems as if he's rejecting managements wishes.

If Benning wanted to play a team full of vets again he would have re-signed Matthias and Richardson, and not traded Bieksa.

Either Willie adapts to what management wants or I think he'l be finding a new job this summer.

Honestly, I feel that's a foregone conclusion, especially with Green getting interest from other clubs.  I think JB and trev want TG to take over the reigns of this organization.

[CanucksJay]

4 minutes ago, Bang Bang Boogie said:

The Rangers have a much better roster than the Canucks.  They have an elite #1 defenseman and goalie, along with consistent scorers throughout their lineup.  They are contenders built to win now, and the Canucks are a team in transition. Switch AV and WD, I don't think the results will be much different.

I was a HUGE AV critic and I can admit that I was wrong on many things. It wasn't that he didn't give young guys a chance. I was mad he didn't give Kassian a chance. But then again, who knew he was a coke head? I support his decision now. 

AV didn't hold the vets accountable but neither does Willie. It made me realize that maybe micromanaging vets mistakes is a surefire way to destroy a team and perhaps that's why coaches don't do it openly. Maybe he does behind closed doors while watching game film. 

I thought AV had lost the room but maybe the players just weren't capable of playing any better. They lost to LA despite being presidents champs and got swept by San jose. While we may realize now that the two teams are actually better than ours, at the time, it was a bitter pill to swallow and first option before dismantling the team is to try a new coach. That in hindsight was the wrong decision. 

AV is one of the best coaches in the game and he was great with the canucks.i do wonder if he has what it takes to get NYR a cup but I wish him luck. 

[oldnews]

1 hour ago, Bang Bang Boogie said:

The Rangers have a much better roster than the Canucks.  They have an elite #1 defenseman and goalie, along with consistent scorers throughout their lineup.  They are contenders built to win now, and the Canucks are a team in transition. Switch AV and WD, I don't think the results will be much different.

You're mistaking me for someone critical of WD / reading into that post. I'm not suggesting AV would be doing more with this lineup - what I'm suggesting is that AV fielded the same kind of complaints as WD around here incessantly - and he was/is  a great coach.

[CanucksJay]

38 minutes ago, oldnews said:

You're mistaking me for someone critical of WD / reading into that post. I'm not suggesting AV would be doing more with this lineup - what I'm suggesting is that AV fielded the same kind of complaints as WD around here incessantly - and he was/is  a great coach.

Lol, you and I have had many battles regarding AV. What can I say, you were right and I was wrong. That being said, I've learned my lesson and have been less critical of WD. 

[oldnews]

12 hours ago, Robongo said:

Actually, anyone that had watched Bieksa earn his very first ridiculous overpaid contract, which was a one off before his 2011 deal was sounding the alarm that his 2011 year was a one off. Bieksa the year before was complete garbage and he earned his 4.6 mil deal because of Hamhuis. Yes, he played well, but he has shown since that that was a complete one off. There was in fact , enough room to resign Ehrhoff, but Gillis gave him the ultimatum to sign for Bieksa value and be a "team player" or bounce.

Garrison or Vrbata was the choice you say?  Well, again you're forcing your own narrative that isn't based on reality. It wasn't Garrison or Vrbata, it was actually Garrison or Miller. We hired a coach that thought he could make something out of a Linden Vey , which we all know was a complete and utter failure. They decided to lose depth on the blue line to go with a goaltender in which the GM was more than familiar with, JB has openly alluded to this fact, but please continue to claim it was Garrison or Vrbata .

Sbisa was a complete disaster, every single metric both regular stats/advanced stat and the eye test confirmed it. Just because you are in complete denial of this doesn't make it any less true. Regardless, your comments about Bieksa's "cuts" as blame for his decline demonstrate you have not played a lick of sports in your life. You are a keyboard warrior , if you've gone through a surgery and attempted to play sports after you would see how ridiculous your statement was. Likewise, if you asked Bieksa what he thought of your lame ass assessment that he was worse off from his injuries he would laugh in your face

The blueline HAS been dismantled, actually. In 2011 our Top pairing was Hamhuis/Bieksa, Edler/Ehrhoff.

Do we have Bieksa? Nope! Do we have Ehrhoff? Nope.  So your 3/4  of our top 4 that you claim is complete and utter crap. We have 3 top 4 defenceman this year at best and Hamhuis is no longer capable of carrying a pairing on his own. We literally had the top offensive blueline in the entire league, but no , it wasn't dismantled, I'm just a dimwit and you're the smartest person on this board

Bongo, this is the last time I'm going to waste on this.  Throw in another emoticon if you will, but while you're at it - try integrating some facts.

Your facts are mangled badly - Bieksa, after signing his deal in the summer of 2011 - went on to score 44 points in 2011-12 - the year after his alleged "one off" during the Cup run.

You imply that you know the 'real reason' for Bieksa's decline (which you haven't actually shared) - and go off as if his reduced mobility had nothing to do with two serious cuts to his legs - and then make ludicrous, blind statements assuming I've 'never played sports' (patently wrong) and one of the biggest red herring types of 'criticism' you'll see on these boards.  [It is beside the point, but I've played and continue to play a lot of sports throughout my life - quite a bit of it at a very high level (I'm not going any further with your game - you go ahead and prop up your internet achievement resume if you think it makes some kind of point) - I have had serious sports related injuries and surgeries and know what it means to age and to recover - so your blind assumptions are just that.  I could suggest that you're a teenage keyboard warrior yourself with little idea what you're talking about, but I could care less about your age, your experience, how many hours you've spent playing sports, etc - it's beside the point.

How many teams in the NHL had three of their current top 4 in their lineup in 2011?  The idea that the blueline has been "dismantled" because since 2011, Ehrhoff walked (and was subsequently bought out by one of the NHL's worst teams) and Bieksa was dealt, who was clearly declining the past few years, is just nonsense.  Look at any team.  Have the 2013 Hawks been "dismantled" because Leddy, Oduya, Roszival have left?   Willie Mitchell, Regehr, Voynov - I suppose the 2013-14 Kings blueline has been 'dismantled' as well.

Miller and Vrbata were signed within days of each other.  It's pretty evident that Miller was going to be signed regardless of what happened with Garrison.  Miller was signed on the 1st of July, Vrbata on the 3rd - so you can puff all the smoke you want, but you're splitting hairs attempting to argue that it was Miller not Vrbata who the Garrison cap was spent on - and regardless, it is irrelevent.  You're so busy racing to argue every micropoint that you've once again lost the actual context in the process.

You clearly don't know what you're talking about, making claims that "every single metric" indicates that Sbisa is a 'disaster'.  It's that kind of overstated nonsense that I've responded to numerous times - looking at his actual underlying numbers - as opposed to making dramatic overstatements that you haven't backed up.

 

This (Sbisa) has been beaten to death on these boards, but I'll give a short and simple summary here:

 

Sbisa's corsi on of -7.49 was nowhere near the worst in the NHL. Actually, there were 82 NHL defensemen with worse underlying numbers.

 

http://www.behindthenet.ca/nhl_statistics.php?ds=30&s=30&rs=t&f1=2014_s&f2=5v5&f4=D&c=0+1+3+5+4+6+7+8+13+14+29+30+32+33+34+45+46+63+67#

 

His 48.3% offensive zone starts.....195 NHL defensemen had higher offensive zone starts.

 

http://www.behindthenet.ca/nhl_statistics.php?ds=30&s=63&f1=2014_s&f2=5v5&f4=D&c=0+1+3+5+4+6+7+8+13+14+29+30+32+33+34+45+46+63+67#snip=f

 

His .345 quality of competition....180 NHL defensemen faced weaker quality of competiiton.

 

http://www.behindthenet.ca/nhl_statistics.php?ds=30&s=14&f1=2014_s&f2=5v5&f4=D&c=0+1+3+5+4+6+7+8+13+14+29+30+32+33+34+45+46+63+67#snip=f

 

Given those cumulative underlying numbers - it would be difficult to qualify a claim that his were in the bottom 100, let alone

 

"By almost every conceivable measure...Sbisa isn't just bad, but one of the worst defencemen to get regular minutes in the NHL."

 

People like yourself and PITB like to dramatically troll the player, but the actual underlying numbers betray the manipulative, weak distortion of "advanced stats".

I've yet to see anyone attempt to explain how those numbers above translate into one of the worst defensemen - a 'disaster'  or however you choose to package that nonsense.

But carry on - it's been a slice (and enough time wasted).

[oldnews]

4 minutes ago, CanucksJay said:

Lol, you and I have had many battles regarding AV. What can I say, you were right and I was wrong. That being said, I've learned my lesson and have been less critical of WD. 

What I find odd is that WD seems to be taking a lot more crap than AV did, and early in his tenure, despite what he did with a team that a lot of people expected to tank - and despite the fact he's doing what most people here claimed they wanted - he has integrated a handful of youngsters into the lineup virtually every night - and they've been very competitive, despite injuries and some key guys not producing.   

AV had a different team - more veterans in the heart of their careers and far less quality youth to draw upo.  I think they both did/are doing what's right under the circumstances.  I have a great deal of confidence in both of them - I think WD will continue to do a great job with this group moving forward, and I think AV has pretty much proven what a quality coach he is.

[DIBdaQUIB]

3 minutes ago, oldnews said:

What I find odd is that WD seems to be taking a lot more crap than AV did, and early in his tenure, despite what he did with a team that a lot of people expected to tank - and despite the fact he's doing what most people here claimed they wanted - he has integrated a handful of youngsters into the lineup virtually every night - and they've been very competitive, despite injuries and some key guys not producing.   

AV had a different team - more veterans in the heart of their careers and far less quality youth to draw upo.  I think they both did/are doing what's right under the circumstances.  I have a great deal of confidence in both of them - I think WD will continue to do a great job with this group moving forward, and I think AV has pretty much proven what a quality coach he is.

Do you think WD would be more effective in developing the youth if Management/Ownership took off the shackles of winning now and being a playoff team?  

WD said after last night that the current losing streak is how you develop the young guys.  Would he be freer to place them in key situations if winning wasn't still the over-riding goal?

[oldnews]

11 minutes ago, DIBdaQUIB said:

Do you think WD would be more effective in developing the youth if Management/Ownership took off the shackles of winning now and being a playoff team?  

WD said after last night that the current losing streak is how you develop the young guys.  Would he be freer to place them in key situations if winning wasn't still the over-riding goal?

I don't know Dib - but I think the two are or should be inseparable.  I believe that the way to develop young guys is to do so while attempting to win every game, where every shift is an example of attempting to win that game and every game you ice your best roster, where young players are expected to perform in ways that lead to winning hockey from the get-go and compete for and earn their ice time, and if they're not ready for that, their development either takes place elsewhere at a more appropriate level, or their icetime and situational use is limited so to maximize their chances of succeeding in the role they're capable of at the time.  For me it's not one or the other, but balancing the two so that you are integrating the young players, allowing them to make mistakes, but not getting carried away with lowered expectations or an end-goal that they'll be better if we just let go of the winning side.  So I suppose my opinion would be no, that you don't take off the shackles of winning - that you want them performing in precisely the environment where winning is a primary goal and expectation - and imo they'll be better players as a result.  I don't believe the long term goals of the franchise are compromised by attempting to remain more competitive, and I think regardless, there are a handful of very young players playing a lot of NHL minutes on this team, so I'm pretty comfortable with the balance they're striking - and I think as the season progresses they could benefit both ways - they may be in playoff contention, and they'll have developed players in that context that might just be ready for it if they do make the postseason.

[CanucksJay]

I think we are already seeing this happen. Virtanen made a critical error with either the game tied or down by 1 by pretty much centring the puck to the opposition right in the slot. Normally he'd be stapled to the bench immediately but I saw Willie continuing to use him last night as he ended with 12+ minutes. He did miss some shifts but I don't know whether that was from getting hit by the puck. I think he also used him for the last or 2nd last shift when the game was out of reach and there was no pressure on Virtanen and that line had a good shift. 

I think both he and management are starting to realize that the year will be best spent developing youth but maintaining a balance between staying competitive along with development. We don't want a losing culture and I think we are developing our players the right way. We are sheltering them in certain situations which is best for them at this point. 

[Erik Karlsson]

16 hours ago, DeNiro said:

Grenier has the 2nd most shots on net and gets 1 shift in the third.

No, we definitely don't want shots. Those don't lead to goals or anything...

Getting pretty sick of WD, I can't even watch the games anymore. Sven also had one of his best games tonight and sees no ice in the 3rd.

Hopefully WD is fired soon and we bring up Travis Green.

WD is just not a very good NHL coach, as we saw in the playoffs, one of the worst coaching performances I've ever seen.

[Patchoball Cannons]

Another game on this road trip where the refs affected the outcome. First it was the call that led to the 5 on 3 against the Leafs, then the no call on Pacioretty when he scored to make it 3-2, last but not least the call on Sbisa for a clean hit that leads to the Jets 1st goal last night. What made that call so much worse was that in response Peluso targets Sbisa's head then attacks him. No instigator, no call for the forearm to the back of the head. This league is so bloody inconcistent on everything but screwing the Canucks.