Olli Juolevi | #48 | D

[HockeyHarry]

AHL is a total beast to adjust to and his injuries and time off doesn’t help that adjustment. I remember Salo in Finland saying it took OJ awhile too adjust too the Finish league but after a few months he figured it out and was really Solid after that first learning period. 

 

I agree Juolevi early AHL plus minus doesn’t tell the full story. Hes still trying too get the rust out and wasn’t 100%...I feel it’ll take this whole season for the rust too fully disappear and his body to get back into Hockey shape......grrr....It’s frustrating, but unfortunately that’s the reality.  we gotta be patient......and I believe his plus minus will even out and he’ll be solid ready for the NHL the we prospect fans can move onto the Woo whining.

 

On the plus side of Juolevi’s 1st real Contract should be dirt cheap....which Canuck will be greatful for.  

 

Im a Canuck homer and think our awesome prospects and young core are going too get pretty expensive in the next 5 years, but year after year of winning the Stanley Cup it’ll be worth it.

[HorvatToBaertschi]

12 hours ago, HockeyHarry said:

OJ plus minus will be fine in a full season and it should even out....he’s had no real long stretches to gain a rhythm. 

 

But his plus minus should be watched. 

Horvat has been a minus player his entire NHL career. It’s absolutely meaningless without any supplementary data. 
 

I wouldn’t be one to think that Bo is below-average in the defensive zone. He isn’t. 

[HockeyHarry]

1 hour ago, HorvatToBaertschi said:

Horvat has been a minus player his entire NHL career. It’s absolutely meaningless without any supplementary data. 
 

I wouldn’t be one to think that Bo is below-average in the defensive zone. He isn’t. 

So your saying his Canuck line mates suck and Canucks have been a losing team since Horvat been on the Canucks and that’s why he’s a minus player, I actually agree with your assessment as the facts show that to be true. If you look at the D pairing plus minus you see Bo was a victim of Horrible linemates that being the Defence  pairings. 

 

Edited December 10, 2019 by HockeyHarry

[Gurn]

59 minutes ago, HockeyHarry said:

So your saying his Canuck line mates suck and Canucks have been a losing team since Horvat been on the Canucks and that’s why he’s a minus player, I actually agree with your assessment as the facts show that to be true. If you look at the D pairing plus minus you see Bo was a victim of Horrible linemates that being the Defence  pairings. 

 

Or in the absence of Sutter and partially Beagle, Bo is having to play against the opponents best offensive line?

[Phat Fingers]

18 hours ago, HockeyHarry said:

So a bad plus minus means your teammates suck and your goalie sucks but Your awesome and it’s never your fault it’s everyone else’s fault.

 

good players even out the plus minus over the seasons ups and downs. But if it doesn’t even out that player is a Defensive liability.

 

Harry, hey bud, thought you should know your troll is showing.  How about zip that up and walk away.

[HockeyHarry]

3 minutes ago, Phat Fingers said:

Harry, hey bud, thought you should know your troll is showing.  How about zip that up and walk away.

I’m not trolling.

 

im just saying plus minus does matter.

 

are you trolling me?

[Phat Fingers]

1 minute ago, HockeyHarry said:

I’m not trolling.

 

im just saying plus minus does matter.

 

are you trolling me?

No, your trolling.  Seen all the signs before.  I just like to point it out to others in case they aren't meaning to troll.  

[HockeyHarry]

Is debating trolling?

 

quoting and alerting a poster is asking for a reply.

so I reply to the topic. Juolevi plus minus was the topic.  plus minus is important imo. Others don’t see Plus minus as important.

 

if you look at the top plus minus Nhlers the top plus guys are all Hall of Famers. So there must be something to it. Saying it’s not an important stat is crazy imo.

 

Juolevi will be fine in the plus minus he just needs more time and needs to be rust free and in game shape which takes time. 

 

But his plus minus does need too be watched.

Edited December 10, 2019 by HockeyHarry

[Ihatetomatoes]

18 hours ago, 48MPHSlapShot said:

Simply looking at the timeframe and not the number of games played is being intellectually dishonest. He only played 18 games last year before being sidelined with a potentially career threatening injury. He's only played a combined 34 games total at the AHL level, with equates to less than half of a full season. Even then, going back to his days in junior and in liiga, his +/- has always been solid. 

Intellectually dishonest?

 

Claiming his +/-  was solid before his injury is being straight up dishonest unless you consider being -12 in 18 games solid.

 

He's now -21 in 35 total AHL games. I'm not going to argue about +/- as a stat I'm just saying his +/- wasn't solid before his injury and it isn't solid this year. 

[Fred65]

19 hours ago, Phat Fingers said:

Weak Fred, really weak.  How many games has OJ played in the AHL?  18 last year, injures and what 16 games so far this season.  

 

You also spin the details to first your narrative to make it seem worse than it really is.  

 

I could easily frame it as positive, 'in the first 16 games this season after recovering from season ending  knee surgery Olli Juolevi is already showing he is paying more attention to his play without the puck and his Minus is half of his total at the same point last year '

 

 

See Fred spinning is easy.  The difference is one of us is honest about it.

 

Plus minus is a team stat, it can only be effective in large sample sizes over a number of seasons to be an indicator of a players effectiveness with or without the puck when combined with advanced stats like Corsi.  

 

 

Phats I'm not trying to make things worse than they are, Hell I've been plonking my money down since 1973 for tickets,  I'm just looking at a measuring stick to grade people on. OJ has been consistently in the wrong end of the +/- for certainly the last 2 seasons*, and this is what Salo ( as coach in Salo ) said … "well he's getting better" which is a polite way of saying he's struggling. AS to your suggestion that +/- can only be used over a number of seasons, I call BS on that. In this case I was comparing Rafferty with OJ, same team, same coach, same position but different results. I hope, I hope OJ can become a serviceable D in the NHL, unfortunately at this stage of his career the facts look bleak. On the Utica roster currently  Rafferty has the best +/-  ( + 11) while OJ has the worse +/- (-9)

 

Do you believe that having a poor +/- is a bragging point ?

 

* 2018/2019 season OJ was a minus -12 or 1168 of a total of 1257 players in the AHL that season

[joe-max]

23 hours ago, Tre Mac said:

The bolded players are pretty notorious for bad defending so this is where +/- holds some merit.  

 

I tried to include the big name players, there are several others with equally or even worse +/- such as Travis Zajac, Max Lajoie, Mikkel Boedker, Valtteri Filppula or Boone Jenner, none of which are defensive liabilities.

I'm not trying to spin it into OJ is the bestest ever, nor do I think +/- is useless. If I had the choice between a +20 and a -20 player I would certainly trust the former more. But considering the circumstances (surgeries, not entirely up to speed yet, lack of development time, redeveloping trust into own body and abilities) I'd say it is way too early to call him defensively weak. He was mostly outstanding in junior, in Liiga and in international competition in +/-, his production is decent, there is much room to grow. He'll be solid.

[Elias Pettersson]

1 hour ago, Fred65 said:

Phats I'm not trying to make things worse than they are, Hell I've been plonking my money down since 1973 for tickets,  I'm just looking at a measuring stick to grade people on. OJ has been consistently in the wrong end of the +/- for certainly the last 2 seasons*, and this is what Salo ( as coach in Salo ) said … "well he's getting better" which is a polite way of saying he's struggling. AS to your suggestion that +/- can only be used over a number of seasons, I call BS on that. In this case I was comparing Rafferty with OJ, same team, same coach, same position but different results. I hope, I hope OJ can become a serviceable D in the NHL, unfortunately at this stage of his career the facts look bleak. On the Utica roster currently  Rafferty has the best +/-  ( + 11) while OJ has the worse +/- (-9)

 

Do you believe that having a poor +/- is a bragging point ?

 

* 2018/2019 season OJ was a minus -12 or 1168 of a total of 1257 players in the AHL that season

Juolevi was a +38 in 2015 with London.  He was a +26 in 2016 with London.  He was a +7 in 2018 with TPS.  He's been a solid +/- player his whole junior career and one year in the pro league in Finland.  These are also facts.

 

So far he is a -21 in 35 games with Utica in the AHL.  That's not a good stat but one could argue it is an outlier of his entire career due mainly to injury and playing in a different league.  Also, it could have something to do with the team he is playing on and the system involved.

 

In any event we will need further evidence to suggest that Juolevi is a bad +/- player.  With his injury situation and adapting to the pro league in North America he needs to play more than 35 games to get an accurate read on things.  Let's see where he is one year from now. 

[Alflives]

2 hours ago, Ihatetomatoes said:

Intellectually dishonest?

 

Claiming his +/-  was solid before his injury is being straight up dishonest unless you consider being -12 in 18 games solid.

 

He's now -21 in 35 total AHL games. I'm not going to argue about +/- as a stat I'm just saying his +/- wasn't solid before his injury and it isn't solid this year. 

OJ has been playing injured.  First it was his back, and then his knee.  Players play through, what they think are only minor problems, but it definitely affects their play, especially defensively.  Now OJ is finally healthy.  We will see him be a lot better defensively.  His first game back and he had 6 blocked shots.  

[Fred65]

18 minutes ago, Alflives said:

OJ has been playing injured.  First it was his back, and then his knee.  Players play through, what they think are only minor problems, but it definitely affects their play, especially defensively.  Now OJ is finally healthy.  We will see him be a lot better defensively.  His first game back and he had 6 blocked shots.  

As of today he (OJ) has the worse +/- on the team. He has 0.48 Pts/G. Rafferty has the best +/- and 0.8 pts/G. That has to mean some thing surely to God. Most of the comments about OJ are excuses IMO

[Fred65]

23 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

Juolevi was a +38 in 2015 with London.  He was a +26 in 2016 with London.  He was a +7 in 2018 with TPS.  He's been a solid +/- player his whole junior career and one year in the pro league in Finland.  These are also facts.

 

So far he is a -21 in 35 games with Utica in the AHL.  That's not a good stat but one could argue it is an outlier of his entire career due mainly to injury and playing in a different league.  Also, it could have something to do with the team he is playing on and the system involved.

 

In any event we will need further evidence to suggest that Juolevi is a bad +/- player.  With his injury situation and adapting to the pro league in North America he needs to play more than 35 games to get an accurate read on things.  Let's see where he is one year from now. 

Sure who knows he might play like Bobby Orr next season ( and I hope he does) however back to reality he ain't doing much now. Your stats for junior are impressive ie he was a good junior

[Rollieo Del Fuego]

The reality is...we haven't seen the fully developed, healthy, able to turn without pain or stiffness...Juolevi...when we see him for decent sample size...a half season or more...

Then we can see if he remains a lower +/- player than his teammates....and if it matter's....in Hughes case it doesn't matter he brings so much on offense and the PP.

 

The end of the season might shed some light on what direction he is going....not much before...

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, Rollieo Del Fuego said:

The reality is...we haven't seen the fully developed, healthy, able to turn without pain or stiffness...Juolevi...when we see him for decent sample size...a half season or more...

Sadly we may never see him fully developed and healthy. 

[Phat Fingers]

4 hours ago, Ihatetomatoes said:

Intellectually dishonest?

 

Claiming his +/-  was solid before his injury is being straight up dishonest unless you consider being -12 in 18 games solid.

 

He's now -21 in 35 total AHL games. I'm not going to argue about +/- as a stat I'm just saying his +/- wasn't solid before his injury and it isn't solid this year. 

Says without mentioning that this seasons totals are roughly half of his last seasons totals.  Combined everything looks really bad and dramatic.  -21 in 34 games played, simply horrible, we must freak out now.  

 

Or using the exact same information you could say the last season OJ had -0.66 per games played.  Currently this season OJ has already dropped that to -0.44 per games played, a 33% improvement.  Not great, obviously we would all like to see OJ get to the plus side.   But he is trending in the right direction  and defence is the hardest position to play.  A ways to go, but he is still producing and he is now hopefully going to be healthy for the rest of the season.  

[Ihatetomatoes]

33 minutes ago, Phat Fingers said:

Says without mentioning that this seasons totals are roughly half of his last seasons totals.  Combined everything looks really bad and dramatic.  -21 in 34 games played, simply horrible, we must freak out now.  

 

Or using the exact same information you could say the last season OJ had -0.66 per games played.  Currently this season OJ has already dropped that to -0.44 per games played, a 33% improvement.  Not great, obviously we would all like to see OJ get to the plus side.   But he is trending in the right direction  and defence is the hardest position to play.  A ways to go, but he is still producing and he is now hopefully going to be healthy for the rest of the season.  

Not sure where you're getting -0.44 from. -9 in 17 games is -0.53.

 

He's had a 0.13 improvement.

[48MPHSlapShot]

5 hours ago, Ihatetomatoes said:

Intellectually dishonest?

 

Claiming his +/-  was solid before his injury is being straight up dishonest unless you consider being -12 in 18 games solid.

 

He's now -21 in 35 total AHL games. I'm not going to argue about +/- as a stat I'm just saying his +/- wasn't solid before his injury and it isn't solid this year. 

You're completely ignoring the context to suit your narrative. It's obvious to anyone with an honest bone in their body that I was referring to his +/- before he made the jump to the AHL. His time in junior, various tournaments, and his time spent in liiga. 

 

 

Also, it seems as though you're trying to imply that Juolevi has spent two full seasons in the AHL, which just isn't the case. He's only played 35 games in the AHL thus far, stretched across two seasons due to a career threatening injury last year and a soreness issue this year that could very well have been limiting his mobility. To blindly say or imply the idea that 'He's in his 2nd season and his +/- still sucks' is to completely ignore all context in order to push the narrative that his poor +/- is some sort of trend that has stretched across multiple years of his hockey playing career.