Jack Rathbone | #3 | D

[Kootenay Gold]

12 minutes ago, Gawdzukes said:

Watch all the idiots who don't understand waivers and depth players complain if he gets picked of waivers like the Great Gadjovich.

I doubt that he would clear waivers as some team needing an offensive D-man might grab him.

 

I do like Rathbone as a person and if he was 6'3, 215 lbs and was able to process the game at an NHL pace we would not be having this discussion IMO. That being said; we already have an slightly undersized elite LD-man in Hughes and there really is no room for another one of similar style that does not have that elite ability of Hughes.

 

What the Canucks could really use is a large mobile D-man with a lot of truculence in their top 4. That type of player, if acquired, will make Jack expendable.

[SID.IS.SID.ME.IS.ME]

1 hour ago, AnthonyG said:

Mind sharing somecnumbers? I’m just curious to see what these numbers are. Or if you have a link for where you do your research?

 

I appreciate your overall response, well written and a very fair/non bias summary

 

For free access (most of the better analytics will have paywalls) you could look at Natural Stat Trick or some of the limited access on Evolving Hockey.

 

Here’s last season’s Canucks defencemen, relative to team stats (5v5):

 

https://www.naturalstattrick.com/playerteams.php?fromseason=20222023&thruseason=20222023&stype=1&sit=5v5&score=all&stdoi=oi&rate=r&team=VAN&pos=D&loc=B&toi=0&gpfilt=none&fd=&td=&tgp=410&lines=single&draftteam=ALL

 

And here’s OEL’s player page (with GAR based stats per season):

 

https://evolving-hockey.com/stats/players/?_inputs_&player="Oliver Ekman-Larsson"

 

MoneyPuck also has some good data available for free. You can apply filters to look at OEL relative to the league or relative to other Canucks:

 

https://www.moneypuck.com/stats.htm

 

There are others too (free hockey analytics sites), but I’m drawing a blank right now. I have the links on my laptop but I’m away and just using my phone. I’m sure others will chime in with some suggestions.

 

 

 

 

[rizzuto&hatoum]

Back to Rathbone - He needs to differentiate himself from the other smaller LD like Hughes, Hirose by being more physical. He used to step up and take out the right winger in the neutral zone. Those type of hits were in his highlights package before but he hasn't done that recently. 

[stawns]

3 hours ago, rizzuto&hatoum said:

Back to Rathbone - He needs to differentiate himself from the other smaller LD like Hughes, Hirose by being more physical. He used to step up and take out the right winger in the neutral zone. Those type of hits were in his highlights package before but he hasn't done that recently. 

his differentiation is he loves to shoot, whereas both Hirose and Hughes are playmakers.

[Bobby James]

On 4/25/2023 at 1:56 AM, Ray_Cathode said:

Over this past year, OEL was pretty much the worst defenceman in the NHL. Other than his massive contract, what justification is there for playing him?

You go on to answer this yourself, but he reportedly had a bad foot injury in the offseason and it never fully recovered and he tried playing through it. Like most players often try doing. 

 

With OEL we have 2 seasons with him on Van. In his first he was a pleasant surprise, carried Meyers and played really solid. In his second he was very bad, looked slower and weaker. We now know that he was playing injured, so they shut him down and he will hopefully be 100% next season. 

 

To me it is obvious you try him out again next year as our #2 LD. We are stuck with the money, so it just makes way more sense to me to try and revitalize this dude's career. New management, new coaches and new leadership. I'd rather see what OEL can really do when pushed hard in a hockey market. 

 

If it doesn't work out and we still decide to buy him out, at least each year that goes by the buyout penalty isn't as bad. 

[Ray_Cathode]

On 4/25/2023 at 9:48 AM, AnthonyG said:

Curious what metrics you use to confidently say OEL was the worst dman in the league? 
You watch all 32 teams 82 games?

Trash goaltending has no impact at all in any of the numbers you look at to render your verdict of “pretty much the worst dman in the NHL”?

Funny how the ‘trash’ goaltending affected +/- of OEL twice as much as the next worse defenceman. Maybe you might want to go back and examine pk goals against the Canucks and see how often those goals were cross crease passes when OEL was on the ice. Now, it turns out that he got an ankle injury in a tournament prior to this season, but that doesn’t negate the fact that he played like crap. At the time that he went on LTIR, he had the worst +/- of all defencemen playing an equivalent number of games. Now this is apart from his massive contribution to the Canuck’s league worst pk at the time. When he finally went on LTIR everything improved for the Canucks except the pp. Now, the blame for playing OEL hurt can be shared with the medical staff and management - but that, too, doesn’t erase how bad he was, it just provides a rationalization for it.

[AnthonyG]

6 hours ago, Ray_Cathode said:

Funny how the ‘trash’ goaltending affected +/- of OEL twice as much as the next worse defenceman. Maybe you might want to go back and examine pk goals against the Canucks and see how often those goals were cross crease passes when OEL was on the ice. Now, it turns out that he got an ankle injury in a tournament prior to this season, but that doesn’t negate the fact that he played like crap. At the time that he went on LTIR, he had the worst +/- of all defencemen playing an equivalent number of games. Now this is apart from his massive contribution to the Canuck’s league worst pk at the time. When he finally went on LTIR everything improved for the Canucks except the pp. Now, the blame for playing OEL hurt can be shared with the medical staff and management - but that, too, doesn’t erase how bad he was, it just provides a rationalization for it.

Ironically Demko learned how to stop a puck after OEL went down. You’re going to say its all because of OEL?

Demko was trash up until his injury as indicated by his horrendous GSAA

AFTER his injury and when OEL was on LTIR, his GSAA jumped up to 9th in the league at 5v5 and 10th overall in all situations…. Seems like Demko was saving some peoples asses and his job wasnt easier because OEL went down.

17GP and he had 9GSAA. Do the math. Thats on pace for over 30GAA in a regular season.

[AnthonyG]

9 hours ago, Ray_Cathode said:

Funny how the ‘trash’ goaltending affected +/- of OEL twice as much as the next worse defenceman. Maybe you might want to go back and examine pk goals against the Canucks and see how often those goals were cross crease passes when OEL was on the ice. Now, it turns out that he got an ankle injury in a tournament prior to this season, but that doesn’t negate the fact that he played like crap. At the time that he went on LTIR, he had the worst +/- of all defencemen playing an equivalent number of games. Now this is apart from his massive contribution to the Canuck’s league worst pk at the time. When he finally went on LTIR everything improved for the Canucks except the pp. Now, the blame for playing OEL hurt can be shared with the medical staff and management - but that, too, doesn’t erase how bad he was, it just provides a rationalization for it.

Funny enough those PK numbers from the season opener to Demko’s injury…. Demko was the 2nd worst goalie in the league at letting in bad goals on the PK. -7GSAA he was also 3rd worst goalie in the league at all strengths with -10GSAA…. In 15 games played. So maybe you might want to take a look at stats before jumping on the bandwagon of uninformed and unintelligent fans who hate and single out a select few players without knowing how bad the “fan favourite untouchables” were.

[AnthonyG]

10 hours ago, Ray_Cathode said:

Funny how the ‘trash’ goaltending affected +/- of OEL twice as much as the next worse defenceman. Maybe you might want to go back and examine pk goals against the Canucks and see how often those goals were cross crease passes when OEL was on the ice. Now, it turns out that he got an ankle injury in a tournament prior to this season, but that doesn’t negate the fact that he played like crap. At the time that he went on LTIR, he had the worst +/- of all defencemen playing an equivalent number of games. Now this is apart from his massive contribution to the Canuck’s league worst pk at the time. When he finally went on LTIR everything improved for the Canucks except the pp. Now, the blame for playing OEL hurt can be shared with the medical staff and management - but that, too, doesn’t erase how bad he was, it just provides a rationalization for it.

It's time to put this to bed. I'm going to use the first 7 games of the season just to prove a point. We missed the playoffs by 12 points, there were 14 available points in those first 7 games in which we were leading in almost EVERY single game and blew it, which is where we really did lose the season, Demko's injury didnt help and Spencer Martin was the antichrist. 

 

You and others blame OEL as well as Myers.... 

I blame Demko and I can also point the finger as equally if not more at Hughes over OEL and Myers specifically based off of defensive stats

 

 

Demko 6 GP

All strengths -5.89GSAA (the worst GSAA)

5v5 -0.05GSAA (32nd) 

ES -0.11GSAA (30th)

PK -4.83GSAA  (the worst GSAA of all goalies)

GA 24 

xGA 17.15 

 

As you can see overall Demko was horrendous, at 5v5/ES he was basically even, nothing outstanding and not a complete sieve. PK he was the worst goalie in the league and that makes your PK systems and defense look like crap. He allowed the most goals in the league and had the highest xGA which in all fairness is a little unfair of a measure because not every goalie had played the same amount of games up to that point, however the drastic difference between his xGA and GA is a huge indicator of who's at fault.

 

So now that we have that out of the way

Lets talk about OEL, Hughes and for the hell of it Myers

 

OEL 7GP

All strengths

xGA: 7.86

GA: 13

 

5v5

xGA: 5.8 (highest on the team)

GA: 7 (highest on the team)

 

ES

xGA: 6.99 (highest)

GA: 8 (highest)

 

PK

xGA: 0.75

GA: 5

 

Looks bad doesn't it? Well... Wait until I show you Hughes stats who played 2 less games.

 

Let's do Myers next =)

 

Myers 4GP

All strengths

xGA: 5.09

GA: 5

 

5v5

xGA: 3.77

GA: 2

 

ES 

xGA: 4.4

GA: 3

 

PK

xGA: 0.69

GA: 2

 

It's quite clear OEL and Myers were doing their job on the PK. Goaltending was not. Their xGA is not crippling whatsoever, it's completely reasonable to see a your shutdown guys put in situations where they are at higher risk of being scored on. Especially when you consider the players they are tasked with shutting down.

 

Alright enough of that, lets see Hughes stats

 

Hughes 5GP

All strengths

xGA: 7.91 - almost 3 goals higher than his GP more than 1 goal per game against. At least OELs xGA and GP both started with a 7.

GA: 12

 

5v5

xGA: 4.74

GA: 5

 

ES

xGA: 4.97

GA: 6

 

His xGA is virtually the exact same as both Myers and OEL, they were all expected to be on for an average of 1 goal against per game.

 

Now for the PK =)

 

PK

xGA: 2.39 - The highest xGA on the team. Hughes was clearly a liability on the PK, Myers and OEL were not. Goaltending let them down. Also side note... Schenn had 2x higher xGA as Myers and OEL with 1.42xGA

GA: 4

 

You guys have some rose coloured shades on sippin on your haterade and you dont have the balls to call a spade a spade. Demko was trash, Martin was the 382140154 nails in the coffin. Hughes was not spectacular defensively all season. Myers and OEL were not nearly as bad as you all love to make them out to be. The facts are goaltending made them look far worse than they made the goalies look bad. 

 

Not to mention OEL was on for 3 low danger goals against. Hughes and Myers were on for 1. 1/4 of the goals against OEL were low danger, completely stoppable shots. All 3 of those were on the PK too. So his PK stats would have been nearly flawless if it wasnt for Demko.

 

 

 

 

Care to go do some actual research and come back with something real for once?

 

[Alflives]

1 minute ago, AnthonyG said:

It's time to put this to bed. I'm going to use the first 7 games of the season just to prove a point. We missed the playoffs by 12 points, there were 14 available points in those first 7 games in which we were leading in almost EVERY single game and blew it, which is where we really did lose the season, Demko's injury didnt help and Spencer Martin was the antichrist. 

 

You and others blame OEL as well as Myers.... 

I blame Demko and I can also point the finger as equally if not more at Hughes over OEL and Myers specifically based off of defensive stats

 

 

Demko 6 GP

All strengths -5.89GSAA (the worst GSAA)

5v5 -0.05GSAA (32nd) 

ES -0.11GSAA (30th)

PK -4.83GSAA  (the worst GSAA of all goalies)

GA 24 

xGA 17.15 

 

As you can see overall Demko was horrendous, at 5v5/ES he was basically even, nothing outstanding and not a complete sieve. PK he was the worst goalie in the league and that makes your PK systems and defense look like crap. He allowed the most goals in the league and had the highest xGA which in all fairness is a little unfair of a measure because not every goalie had played the same amount of games up to that point, however the drastic difference between his xGA and GA is a huge indicator of who's at fault.

 

So now that we have that out of the way

Lets talk about OEL, Hughes and for the hell of it Myers

 

OEL 7GP

All strengths

xGA: 7.86

GA: 13

 

5v5

xGA: 5.8 (highest on the team)

GA: 7 (highest on the team)

 

ES

xGA: 6.99 (highest)

GA: 8 (highest)

 

PK

xGA: 0.75

GA: 5

 

Looks bad doesn't it? Well... Wait until I show you Hughes stats who played 2 less games.

 

Let's do Myers next =)

 

Myers 4GP

All strengths

xGA: 5.09

GA: 5

 

5v5

xGA: 3.77

GA: 2

 

ES 

xGA: 4.4

GA: 3

 

PK

xGA: 0.69

GA: 2

 

It's quite clear OEL and Myers were doing their job on the PK. Goaltending was not. Their xGA is not crippling whatsoever, it's completely reasonable to see a your shutdown guys put in situations where they are at higher risk of being scored on. Especially when you consider the players they are tasked with shutting down.

 

Alright enough of that, lets see Hughes stats

 

Hughes 5GP

All strengths

xGA: 7.91 - almost 3 goals higher than his GP more than 1 goal per game against. At least OELs xGA and GP both started with a 7.

GA: 12

 

5v5

xGA: 4.74

GA: 5

 

ES

xGA: 4.97

GA: 6

 

His xGA is virtually the exact same as both Myers and OEL, they were all expected to be on for an average of 1 goal against per game.

 

Now for the PK =)

 

PK

xGA: 2.39 - The highest xGA on the team. Hughes was clearly a liability on the PK, Myers and OEL were not. Goaltending let them down. Also side note... Schenn had 2x higher xGA as Myers and OEL with 1.42xGA

GA: 4

 

You guys have some rose coloured shades on sippin on your haterade and you dont have the balls to call a spade a spade. Demko was trash, Martin was the 382140154 nails in the coffin. Hughes was not spectacular defensively all season. Myers and OEL were not nearly as bad as you all love to make them out to be. The facts are goaltending made them look far worse than they made the goalies look bad. 

 

Not to mention OEL was on for 3 low danger goals against. Hughes and Myers were on for 1. 1/4 of the goals against OEL were low danger, completely stoppable shots. All 3 of those were on the PK too. So his PK stats would have been nearly flawless if it wasnt for Demko.

 

 

 

 

Care to go do some actual research and come back with something real for once?

 

Demko was trying to play through an injury. Our defensive system was nonexistent. I hope you’re right about OEL. 

[AnthonyG]

11 hours ago, Ray_Cathode said:

Funny how the ‘trash’ goaltending affected +/- of OEL twice as much as the next worse defenceman. Maybe you might want to go back and examine pk goals against the Canucks and see how often those goals were cross crease passes when OEL was on the ice. Now, it turns out that he got an ankle injury in a tournament prior to this season, but that doesn’t negate the fact that he played like crap. At the time that he went on LTIR, he had the worst +/- of all defencemen playing an equivalent number of games. Now this is apart from his massive contribution to the Canuck’s league worst pk at the time. When he finally went on LTIR everything improved for the Canucks except the pp. Now, the blame for playing OEL hurt can be shared with the medical staff and management - but that, too, doesn’t erase how bad he was, it just provides a rationalization for it.

And for the record… in 55mins short handed… OEL had an xGA of 6.04. Tell me again how OEL was a liability on the PK?

 

Hughes had 105 mins of PK time and an xGA of 16.13 over 2.5 times the xGA in twice the TOI. Hughes was more of a liability than OEL.

[-Vintage Canuck-]

 

[kenhodgejr]

On 5/20/2023 at 11:01 AM, -Vintage Canuck- said:

 

Happy Birthday Jack, hope its a good one.... Im excited for next season, I think it will be your breakout season! 

[CRAZY_4_NAZZY]

He has sort of become a forgotten figure on the backend with the glut of guys vying for that 3rd pairing/7th dman role.

I went to every home playoff game for Abbotsford, and Jack looked dialed in. He took a much more secondary role on the PP as Wolanin was the main quarterback but Jack made his presence known with his shot, quick puck decisions, and sound defensive reads in the dzone. I'm excited to see what he can do at camp, where a lot of people are overlooking him. Media seems to be pining a lot of Hirose, Wolanin, Brisebois, but I think Jack is going to come into camp with a bit of fire in his belly.

[kenhodgejr]

If Wolanen is playing for the Canucks this season then Jack should get to be a leader in Abbotsford. But with Hirose and Brisebois Im not sure where he will slot in 

[TopChed]

Mang this guy's not a fit hre. He probably has value somewhere n the NHL but not here. If Rathbone is getting games on the Nux something has gone horribly wrong. Honestly for his sake I hope he get's picked up off waivers and gets a fresh start. 

[DeNiro]

Rathbone will not be in Abby.

 

He’ll be playing for a different organization in the fall whether through trade or waivers.

[Fred65]

57 minutes ago, DeNiro said:

Rathbone will not be in Abby.

 

He’ll be playing for a different organization in the fall whether through trade or waivers.

This reflects badly IMO on the Harvard coaching. They were deficient in teaching him th full game. Coaches like to win most of all and to heck with the consequences

[DeNiro]

17 minutes ago, Fred65 said:

This reflects badly IMO on the Harvard coaching. They were deficient in teaching him th full game. Coaches like to win most of all and to heck with the consequences

He had the same coach as Adam Fox.

 

Its on him for not developing his full game.

[Fred65]

3 hours ago, DeNiro said:

He had the same coach as Adam Fox.

 

Its on him for not developing his full game.

True. However Rathbone is no Adam Fox, there is a chasim between what the two offer. Rathbone was in need to a more global game for his success