Jack Rathbone | #3 | D

[aGENT]

1 minute ago, 204CanucksFan said:

Yeah... a realist. Edler is a soon to be 35 year old dman that is going to start declining sooner than later. And in a flat cap world that we live in at the moment we will have 22.7 mil to resign Pettersson, Hughes, Gaudette, Demko and Edler as well as fill the forward holes left by Pearson and Sutter (although I think Hogs and Podz should fill those holes nicely ) So we are going to have to make some tough choices. To me one of those would be let Edler walk and fill with a player on an ELC. Like sid said his salary demands will be critical in making a final decision but as you have pointed out he is currently still playing as a more than capable dman and unless he takes a massive discount we simply can't afford him.

I suspect he will. I also suspect both Hughes and Pettersson are going to be on bridge deals that will be lower than a lot of people are fearing.

[204CanucksFan]

6 minutes ago, aGENT said:

I suspect he will. I also suspect both Hughes and Pettersson are going to be on bridge deals that will be lower than a lot of people are fearing.

For me bridge deals are probably worst case scenario. You are probably right, they will sign bridge deal but those will still be around 7 each (Laine type money) and then 2-3 years later they are looking for 10+ each. And although those are probably inevitable numbers anyway I'd prefer to try and get Petey for 8×9.5ish and Quinn at 8×8.5ish. Maybe not realistic but a guy can dream. Thats why I think a player like Rathbone is going to be very important while still on his ELC. Same with Podz and Hogs. I'd hate to see the team in 3 years be trying to resign all 5 of those player and fit them under the cap

[Alienhuggyflow]

On 11/24/2020 at 8:07 PM, SID.IS.SID.ME.IS.ME said:

I’m a huge fan of Rathbone, but, at least right now, I don’t put his upside quite at the level of Adam Fox. 
 

Fox is just a more gifted playmaker. He shows the type of wizardry in the offensive zone that makes you say “how did he do that” and “how did he see that.” Just has a higher hockey IQ, better vision, and more creativity, than Rathbone.

 

And that’s not really taking anything away from Jack. He’s highly gifted. Just not at Fox’s level, as a playmaker.

 

I’ll put it this way: I was not surprised at all to see Fox break 40 points as a rookie defenceman. But I would be surprised to see Rathbone match those numbers. And even if Hughes wasn’t in Vancouver.

 

Rathbone is more likely a 30-40 point defenceman, and maybe a high end #3, if he reaches his potential.

 

(Of course, he may blow right past my projections, but that’s just where I see him.)

 

On the other hand, age-for-age, I’m more impressed by Rathbone’s defensive game than I was by Fox’s. I think Rathbone has the better base, as a defensive player, and with the right focus and determination, he might further hone his defensive play to a level that greatly surpasses what Fox brings, away from the puck. Rathbone is also a significantly more physical and aggressive defender, and uses his body better, than Fox.

 

As far as his shot, Fox himself admits that Rathbone has a better shot than he does. 
 

And I'd say that Rathbone is more of a pure skater than Fox, just in terms of his overall smoothness, and the sweetness of his skating mechanics.
 

What separates them the most is that hockey brain, which puts Fox in the elite class, and Rathbone more in the gifted and very good class, but not elite.

Thanks for responding. I am stoked if his D game is at or better than Fox.  Yeah Fox was sheltered a bit compared to Hughes and Makar but any other season and he's pretty easily a calder favourite at least for his position.  

Rathbone was one of the few prospects I followed that wasn't local or getting tons of hype. I remember reading about him 2 years before his draft and there was 1st round hype among a few but after he decided to stay in HS that talk went away fast. 

I was still shocked he fell that far and TBH was a bit surprised he signed here, only because of his Family and his bond with his Autistic Brother. Kind of shows the rep our team has among prospects and just overall. 

 

[Alienhuggyflow]

On 12/10/2020 at 11:01 AM, Coconuts said:

Gotta wonder whether Rathbone is kept around whether he makes it as a regular this season or not, given the talk of taxi squads. Though how that'll work is still unclear. 

 

I suppose the question will be whether the Canucks see more value in him getting reps in with the Comets vs training with NHL guys and getting games here and there. Assuming he doesn't blow us away and make the team, which could also happen. 

I think he's at least on the taxi squad given the 14 day period to get anyone from the comets to Canada. Plus getting practise time and reps with the big club since there's gonna be injuries and a need for fresh bodies seems like a good plan, granted he shows well in camp.

It's kind of scary but exciting to think our 5-7 D might all be rookies at different parts of the season. 

Tho given what we've been party to with our rookies the last 4 years, would it really surprise anyone if Joulevi or Rathbone, completely blow away expectations? 

[Alienhuggyflow]

1 hour ago, 204CanucksFan said:

For me bridge deals are probably worst case scenario. You are probably right, they will sign bridge deal but those will still be around 7 each (Laine type money) and then 2-3 years later they are looking for 10+ each. And although those are probably inevitable numbers anyway I'd prefer to try and get Petey for 8×9.5ish and Quinn at 8×8.5ish. Maybe not realistic but a guy can dream. Thats why I think a player like Rathbone is going to be very important while still on his ELC. Same with Podz and Hogs. I'd hate to see the team in 3 years be trying to resign all 5 of those player and fit them under the cap

I think if they do a bridge on both and they both hit their ceiling nothing will really change as far as what projections are that much.

What I mean is pretty sure Benning and the Nucks are not only expecting but hoping they earned a big raise after the bridge deals expire. I think at some point Petey will earn around the same cap% as Auston and Quinn will be in the top tier for Dmen. Hopefully by then the cap has gone up to the expected 90ish predicted pre-pandemic. 

I think it's fine to have a few high contracts as long as they aren't all in the same position and there is still guys on their ELCS like you mentioned.

[Kootenay Gold]

6 minutes ago, Alienhuggyflow said:

I think he's at least on the taxi squad given the 14 day period to get anyone from the comets to Canada. Plus getting practise time and reps with the big club since there's gonna be injuries and a need for fresh bodies seems like a good plan, granted he shows well in camp.

It's kind of scary but exciting to think our 5-7 D might all be rookies at different parts of the season. 

Tho given what we've been party to with our rookies the last 4 years, would it really surprise anyone if Joulevi or Rathbone, completely blow away expectations? 

I think there is a very good chance that we see the Canucks carry as many as 9 D men if the NHL allows taxi squads. The 4 regulars would be Edler, Hughes, Myers and Schmidt, with Benn probably seeing partial duty with the Canucks slotting a rookie or two into certain games vs certain teams and also as needed due to injuries. I think both practising with the Canucks and getting some ice time at the NHL level along with lots of video review of their performances and skills development would be a good thing. The Canucks will need the added depth of skilled NHL ready players if they want to challenge for Lord Stanley's Cup. My guess of those on the taxi squad would be Juolevi, Rafferty, Rathbone and Chatfield or Brisbois.

 

[Alienhuggyflow]

51 minutes ago, Kootenay Gold said:

I think there is a very good chance that we see the Canucks carry as many as 9 D men if the NHL allows taxi squads. The 4 regulars would be Edler, Hughes, Myers and Schmidt, with Benn probably seeing partial duty with the Canucks slotting a rookie or two into certain games vs certain teams and also as needed due to injuries. I think both practising with the Canucks and getting some ice time at the NHL level along with lots of video review of their performances and skills development would be a good thing. The Canucks will need the added depth of skilled NHL ready players if they want to challenge for Lord Stanley's Cup. My guess of those on the taxi squad would be Juolevi, Rafferty, Rathbone and Chatfield or Brisbois.

 

Yup makes sense. Im anxious to see Brisbois at camp. I know he wasn't great in the RTP but I was pretty surprised at his defensive #s in Utica, they were quite good but admittedly didn't see many Comet games last season.

[elvis15]

7 hours ago, SID.IS.SID.ME.IS.ME said:

It’s funny. I have a great appreciation for Edler’s game, but even I was surprised when I started looking through his numbers at 30+ years of age. Was expecting to maybe see him top-50, but not so much top-30, and top-15 (at least for last year). Looking at his age curve and career results, he may very well be one of those Dmen who has a steady period of high level play through his mid 30s, and then hits his real decline in his late 30s (it’s not the norm, but many higher end players follow this curve, versus the standard decline pattern that starts in the mid-to-late 20s). It’s hard to say, but if I were to bet, I’d say that, barring injury, Edler might very well be able to play another 3-5 years as a top-4, and even maintain NHL quality to age 40 (or even beyond—before actually dropping to “replacement level”), if he takes care of himself, and still has the drive to continue his career.

 

EDIT: Even by advanced metrics, Edler is actually trending upwards as he gets older, and hits his mid-30s. Over the last three seasons, his WAR is something like 0.3, 1.5, and an eyepopping 2.4 last season (anything over 2 is pretty much elite). It almost seems like the arrival of Hughes, and the rise of the young core, has helped Edler re-establish himself in a role where he can provide a ton of value to the team, while gracefully taking a step back, and ceding that #1D spot and the primary offensive responsibilities to Hughes.

It's been said by a number of us here that Edler has too often been overused. That's not a dig on the coaching staff, but it's just to say Edler's been our best D-man, but has to be relied upon too much. He should really have the responsibility of a #2 or 3 d-man. Tanev has done a lot the last few years to help on the defensive side, but that's still left Edler to shoulder the offensive load. Now, Hughes (and even having Myers to eat minutes) has been able to take over that half as well, so hopefully the extra defensive load on Edler with Tanev gone won't be an issue.

 

But back to Rathbone, he'll have to bring more than his skating and shot to make the lineup. He does have a good chance and the opportunity is there, but how much room do we have to shelter him offensively?

[elvis15]

1 hour ago, Alienhuggyflow said:

I think he's at least on the taxi squad given the 14 day period to get anyone from the comets to Canada. Plus getting practise time and reps with the big club since there's gonna be injuries and a need for fresh bodies seems like a good plan, granted he shows well in camp.

It's kind of scary but exciting to think our 5-7 D might all be rookies at different parts of the season. 

Tho given what we've been party to with our rookies the last 4 years, would it really surprise anyone if Joulevi or Rathbone, completely blow away expectations? 

The taxi squad thing will be interesting if the AHL isn't playing games (to start or at all). Those players will be practicing and scrimmaging, but it's not the same development as game time.

[J.I.A.H.N]

42 minutes ago, elvis15 said:

The taxi squad thing will be interesting if the AHL isn't playing games (to start or at all). Those players will be practicing and scrimmaging, but it's not the same development as game time.

It will be interesting if Rathbone shows as a rookie or as a top end, skilled, ready to play talent

 

IMO,. from all the comparisons he has been given, I am thinking he will be pushing for the #5 spot, and maybe get some PP time over Edler

 

Pretty brave of me to say that...heh?

[Coconuts]

10 hours ago, SID.IS.SID.ME.IS.ME said:

I think we should wait and see what kind of salary demands Edler makes before deciding he should walk.

 

He’s still a very good player, and also a huge part of the leadership group. Guys like Juolevi and Rathbone are a long way away from proving they’re good enough to displace Edler.

 

Consider Edler’s past season. Even with Hughes taking over primary power play duties, Edler put up 33 points in 59 games. That’s 38th among all NHL defencemen. Decidedly “first pairing” numbers. And they look even better when you consider per game and per 60 rates (he then becomes top-30). And when you look at even strength rates, Edler was top-15 among NHL Dmen in 5v5 points/60. Getting close to #1D numbers, all considered, even while making way for Hughes to be the top dog on the PP and during prime offensive 5v5 minutes.

 

And last season wasn’t even a one off.

 

The previous year, Edler was 42nd in defensemen scoring and 25th in points/60.

 

The year before, he was 41st in defenceman scoring.

 

”Steady Eddie” has been steadily giving us “first pairing” quality play and production for the past several years, and he’s really showed very little decline in his play, since turning 30. In some ways, he’s actually stabilized and looks better now than he did during various stages of his late 20s (at least in terms of his overall performance and results—of course there are signs of aging in his game, and I won’t deny this).

 

I think Edler, barring a significant injury, has quite a few good years left in him, and if he’s willing to give us those years, on some relatively cheap short term deals, there’s no way I’d say no.

 

And even if Juolevi and Rathbone pass him (which I doubt happens any time soon), Edler is certainly capable of playing his off side. We have this belief that he can’t play the right side, because he struggled in the past. But that was also playing his off side in a top-4 role. If Rathbone and Juolevi are leapfrogging Edler, then Edler won’t be playing top-4. And he’s more than capable of playing 3RD, if needed. Especially now, as a cagey vet, versus back in the early 2010s, when he was a relatively young Dman playing some tough minutes on his off side with LHDs like Hamhuis and Ballard.

 

I think so long as it’s financially feasible, and he continues to perform well through his 30s, there’s a place for Edler on this team.

 

(Certainly, if he decides to test the open market, we can’t afford him. There’s no way we can match “market value” on a player like Edler. In that scenario, I’d agree that we’d have to let him walk. But hopefully, Edler is willing to take a discount.)

 

I'm of the opinion that as long as he's an effective player we should keep Edler as long as he'd like so long as it's financially reasonable. He's our grizzled vet on the back end, and he's been fantastic these last three years as he's headed into his mid thirties. Could easily see him having another three or four seasons in him if he can keep his play anywhere near the level it's been, and respectable seasons if he falls off a bit. 

 

Sign him to 1-2 year deals, he'll earn more pretty much anywhere else. I want to see him hit 1000 games, the Canucks have never had a D reach that mark. Only the twins and Linden have played 1k in a Canucks uniform, and Edler's only 127 games off. 

Edited December 12, 2020 by Coconuts

[SID.IS.SID.ME.IS.ME]

18 minutes ago, Coconuts said:

I'm of the opinion that as long as he's an effective player we should keep Edler as long as he'd like so long as it's financially reasonable. He's our grizzled vet on the back end, and he's been fantastic these last three years as he's headed into his mid thirties. Could easily see him having another three or four seasons in him if he can keep his play anywhere near the level it's been, and respectable seasons if he falls off a bit. 

 

Sign him to 1-2 year deals, he'll earn more pretty much anywhere else. I want to see him hit 1000 games, the Canucks have never had a D reach that mark. Only the twins and Linden have played 1k in a Canucks uniform, and Edler's only 127 games off. 

I’d be good with that. Seeing Edler hit 1000 games in a Canucks uni would be cool. Or seeing him get to 500 points. Definitely want to push those all time records as high as possible, just to give Huggy a bit of a challenge.

 

EDIT: Pretty amazing to think that next season should see Edler break into the top-100 all-time career points for NHL defencemen. 

Edited December 12, 2020 by SID.IS.SID.ME.IS.ME

[Coconuts]

9 minutes ago, SID.IS.SID.ME.IS.ME said:

I’d be good with that. Seeing Edler hit 1000 games in a Canucks uni would be cool. Or seeing him get to 500 points. Definitely want to push those all time records as high as possible, just to give Huggy a bit of a challenge.

 

EDIT: Pretty amazing to think that next season should see Edler break into the top-100 all-time career points for NHL defencemen. 

If he doesn't I'm gonna be so disappointed, I think it'd be special as he was around to see the twins do an he was starting out as a Canuck as Linden's journey was coming to a close. He could def hit 500 with a few productive seasons. 

 

And really? God damn  

[Ray_Cathode]

5 hours ago, Alienhuggyflow said:

Yup makes sense. Im anxious to see Brisbois at camp. I know he wasn't great in the RTP but I was pretty surprised at his defensive #s in Utica, they were quite good but admittedly didn't see many Comet games last season.

I thought Brisbois was further along defensively than Juolevi, but then he is more experienced, but Juolevi likely has the higher top end granted that he is healthy. I think the start of the season  Granted no injuries I think we are likely to see: 

Hughes       Schmidt

Edler.           Myers

Juolevi.        Benn

 

At season start, unless one of the young guys blows the doors off. Since Benn couldn’t hold a spot last season, I think he’ll be cycled out and Rafferty and a Chatfield cycled in on the right side- depending on whether Green wishes to emphasize pure defence or peck movement and transition. If Juolevi doesn’t grab the job or if there is an injury on the left D, we’ll see Rathbone on the left side. If the young guys prove out, Indon’t think Benn will see much play. Club needs require the development of their young D - especially for cap requirements - not only do we have a flattened cap from COVID, but we have upcoming big contracts for Demko, Pettersson, and Hughes and the room has to come from somewhere.

[J.I.A.H.N]

15 hours ago, Ray_Cathode said:

I thought Brisbois was further along defensively than Juolevi, but then he is more experienced, but Juolevi likely has the higher top end granted that he is healthy. I think the start of the season  Granted no injuries I think we are likely to see: 

Hughes       Schmidt

Edler.           Myers

Juolevi.        Benn

 

At season start, unless one of the young guys blows the doors off. Since Benn couldn’t hold a spot last season, I think he’ll be cycled out and Rafferty and a Chatfield cycled in on the right side- depending on whether Green wishes to emphasize pure defence or peck movement and transition. If Juolevi doesn’t grab the job or if there is an injury on the left D, we’ll see Rathbone on the left side. If the young guys prove out, Indon’t think Benn will see much play. Club needs require the development of their young D - especially for cap requirements - not only do we have a flattened cap from COVID, but we have upcoming big contracts for Demko, Pettersson, and Hughes and the room has to come from somewhere.

Hey Ray

 

Just a friendly bet............I bet that Rathbone makes the team out of camp

 

The only kicker may be the numbers, but I will bet he out plays Benn and Juolevi

 

and not that it will happen but it will be tried......

 

Edler - Hughes

Rathbone - Schmidt

Juolevi - Myers

 

 

Edited December 12, 2020 by janisahockeynut

[wildcam]

On December 11, 2020 at 3:12 PM, 204CanucksFan said:

For me bridge deals are probably worst case scenario. You are probably right, they will sign bridge deal but those will still be around 7 each (Laine type money) and then 2-3 years later they are looking for 10+ each. And although those are probably inevitable numbers anyway I'd prefer to try and get Petey for 8×9.5ish and Quinn at 8×8.5ish. Maybe not realistic but a guy can dream. Thats why I think a player like Rathbone is going to be very important while still on his ELC. Same with Podz and Hogs. I'd hate to see the team in 3 years be trying to resign all 5 of those player and fit them under the cap

I think most new contracts will be for 2-3 yrs and wait until there is more certainty with civid...Can't be playing with empty buildings...

Pettersson - 2 yrs X 7.2 million -- Next summer

Hughes - 2yrs X 6.2 million-- Next summer

 

Next contract..

Pettersson - 6 yrs X 9.5 million

Hughes - 6 yrs X 7.8 million

Edited December 13, 2020 by wildcam

[kloubek]

On 12/11/2020 at 9:10 PM, SID.IS.SID.ME.IS.ME said:

I’d be good with that. Seeing Edler hit 1000 games in a Canucks uni would be cool.

It would, and unless his play drops off a cliff I'm all for it. IF we can afford it. We aren't going to be in a position to pay him another 6m, even if his play remains flat. If he wants to reach that 1000 mark, he's going to have to leave some money on the table.

[Ray_Cathode]

On 12/11/2020 at 3:12 PM, 204CanucksFan said:

For me bridge deals are probably worst case scenario. You are probably right, they will sign bridge deal but those will still be around 7 each (Laine type money) and then 2-3 years later they are looking for 10+ each. And although those are probably inevitable numbers anyway I'd prefer to try and get Petey for 8×9.5ish and Quinn at 8×8.5ish. Maybe not realistic but a guy can dream. Thats why I think a player like Rathbone is going to be very important while still on his ELC. Same with Podz and Hogs. I'd hate to see the team in 3 years be trying to resign all 5 of those player and fit them under the cap

The cap being flat and damn near everyone up against will soften those deals. If no-one has the money, no-one has the money. Bridge deal may lead to bridge deal, particularly if governments get to like the idea of a compliant populace, and the plague rules are made more or less permanent, in the words of Rahm Emanuel, “Never let a crisis go to waste.”

[aGENT]

9 hours ago, Ray_Cathode said:

The cap being flat and damn near everyone up against will soften those deals. If no-one has the money, no-one has the money. Bridge deal may lead to bridge deal, particularly if governments get to like the idea of a compliant populace, and the plague rules are made more or less permanent, in the words of Rahm Emanuel, “Never let a crisis go to waste.”

Right with you there on the financials but the bolded tinfoil hat stuff...

 

WTF...?

 

Get that &^@#ing nonsense out of here. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 16, 2020 by aGENT

[Googlie]

Good write up in CanucksArmy:

 

https://canucksarmy.com/2020/12/15/why-quinn-hughes-playoff-success-jack-rathbone-confidence-camp-canucks/

 

 

Edited December 16, 2020 by Googlie
Attributing source