Shooting at Santa Fe, Texas, high school. 10 reported dead.

[ForsbergTheGreat]

13 hours ago, Toews said:

You are right. I certainly haven't researched the topic because restricting access to guns for those who are mentally ill is simply common sense to me. 

 

You are free to post whatever material you find that tries to justify those with mental illness needing to own guns. 

The issue with the initial proposal was the definition of what was being considered mentally Ill. Infact they weren’t just focusing on mental health issues.  Something a simple as anyone who had financial troubles at one point in their life was being lumped into the same group as people with severe Schizophrenia.

 

Theres a reason why organization that’s are typically extremely anti gun were against the propsal. Not just any organizations, I’m talking about organizations that specialize in mental health.

 

Yes people with a history of mental illness need to be screened but you need more specific definitions and reasons why.  Sure it makes common sense that someone with a past of harming others or say a dissociative disorder, to not have the right to buy firearms. But what about someone with slight anxiety who’s prescribed medicinal weed. they technically fall in the grouping of someone with mental illness. Case by case there’s a large amount of context needed. 

 

Before someone uses the term common sense we should try to have a full understanding of the topic. Sometimes things just arent so black and white like the media likes to portray things. And again that’s part of the big problem. The media (both sides) isn’t trying to find resolution. They are just trying to pin sides against each other as it creates ratings. Instead people getting together to find common ground you get two sides digging trenches.  If an adult conversation (not just calling each other names or stating high level facts without context) could be had amongst the pro vs anti I truly do beleive you could find some movement on both sides.

 

even on this board I think people could find common ground (not that it has any effect and what the US does). But the discussions need to be kept civilized, relevant and people on both sides need to be not closed minded.

 

anyways. I’m on vacay now and likely won’t be able to reply for a few weeks but if a civilized discussion wants to be had about gun issues in the us im happy to engage in. 

 

[Wilbur]

16 hours ago, Lancaster said:

If you're alright with having the 2nd amendment to only apply to muskets, then surely it's perfectly fine to have the 1st amendment to only applicable to direct speech, rallies, and the printing press..... TV, radio, the internet, etc.... they shouldn't be protected by the 1st since those weren't envisioned back during the day.

 

 

Most of the deaths caused by guns are mental health related or with external factors (eg. bullying, abuse, etc).  Using firearms as a means to cause carnage is just a symptom of a greater underlying problem.  The individual is hurting inside... thus the need to deal with it internally (suicide) or externally (going postal).  

While I'm pro-2nd.... I wish for a world with minimal pain and suffering.... banning or limiting a specific thing doesn't balance the equation.

If people on both side of the argument spent just a fraction of their energy and resources on providing help to the poor, becoming big brother/sister to children needing strong role models, providing after school programs to at-risk kids, to operating abuse hotlines, engaging their neighbours to form a positive community..... (gun) violence would be drastically reduced.  

 

 

 

While I agree that those would help reduce gun violence, many of the same Americans opposed to gun control would see this as Socialism, something they fear even more.

[Warhippy]

So what do we know about this kid?

 

Anyone?

[RUPERTKBD]

Once again, people are quick to blame "mental heath issues" as the culprit for a mass shooting (and gun violence in general) and once again, I'll point out that this correlation is an all too common misconception:

 

http://www.amhca.org/blogs/joel-miller/2017/10/03/gun-violence-and-mental-illnessmyths-and-evidence-based-facts

 

Quote

 

Some of the most common misperceptions surrounding gun violence and mental illness include: 

• Most persons with serious mental illness, such as schizophrenia or bipolar disorder, are at high risk of committing violence toward others. 
• Serious mental illness is one of the primary causes of gun violence in the U.S. 
• People with serious mental illness are more likely to perpetrate violent crime than to be victims of violent crime. 

But here are the facts: 

• Most persons with serious mental illness are never violent.  However, small subgroups of persons with serious mental illness are at increased risk of violence during certain high-risk periods, such as during a first-episode of psychosis and the period surrounding inpatient psychiatric hospitalization. 
• People with serious mental illness are rarely violent. Only 3 to 5 percent of all violence, including but not limited to firearm violence, is attributable to serious mental illness.  The large majority of gun violence toward others is not caused by mental illness. 
• People with serious mental illness are far more likely to be victims of violence, including but not limited to firearm violence, than the perpetrators of violent acts. 
• Rates of violent crime victimization are 12 times higher among the population of persons with serious mental illness than among the overall U.S. population. 

And here are some suggested policy and program interventions: 

• Firearm prohibitions should be expanded to include: 

• More individuals with a history of violent behavior, which greatly increases the risk for perpetration of future violence toward others.   
• Specifically, individuals convicted of violent misdemeanor crimes and those subject to ex parte domestic violence restraining orders should be temporarily prohibited from purchasing or possessing firearms. 
• Individuals with a history of risky substance use, which heightens risk of violence toward others.   
• Specifically, individuals convicted of multiple DWIs or DUIs and multiple misdemeanor crimes involving controlled substances should be temporarily prohibited from purchasing or possessing firearms. 

The recently developed federal Interdepartmental Serious Mental Illness Coordinating Committee should review available behavioral health resources and their effectiveness, and recommend changes to reduce barriers to accessing behavioral health care and increase integration of existing resources. 

I believe that one major misconception is that firearms policy is so polarizing that any effort to make changes at the policy level is futile.  But polling data suggests that when the dialogue about gun policy moves beyond broad statements to specific policies, broad support exists for many gun violence prevention policies like those mentioned above. 

The time is now to key stakeholders – families, communities, and government at every level come together who are committed to reducing firearms morbidity and mortality. 

 

The bolded sentence is a drum that I have been beating for quite some time. Just recently there was a story about a guy who murdered his three children and his ex's boyfriend. This was a guy with a history of abuse, both towards his spouse and his children. It's these types of otherwise "normal" people who need to be prohibited from owning firearms.

 

I'm not saying this will "fix" the firearm problem in the US, but it's a start and more importantly, it's a start that focuses on one of the actual causes of these incidents, rather than one that simply makes a convenient scapegoat.

 

By all means, increase funding for mental health issues. It's something that needed. It's just not a solution to gun violence.

[Gurn]

42 minutes ago, Warhippy said:

So what do we know about this kid?

 

Anyone?

He started of life with promise and hope for the future, but gradually changed to a mixed up kid that used a weapon to express his dissatisfaction for how his life was turning out?  Pressure of unrealistic expectations, media be it tv, games, religion  or web, combined with the hormones of being a teen can cause some disturbing thoughts. 

[Shift-4]

On 18/05/2018 at 10:08 AM, Rob_Zepp said:

The same could be said to those that voted him in

[Rob_Zepp]

17 minutes ago, Shift-4 said:

The same could be said to those that voted him in

Not sure about that - I think people just get tired of bad government.   They wanted change.   Obama really didn't do much of all as President to make the average person in the US any better off and that left a lot of people in the mood for vote for hope and change.   What they got?   Well, some are likely having buyer regret but polls indicate not as many as one may think.   

[riffraff]

1 hour ago, RUPERTKBD said:

Once again, people are quick to blame "mental heath issues" as the culprit for a mass shooting (and gun violence in general) and once again, I'll point out that this correlation is an all too common misconception:

 

http://www.amhca.org/blogs/joel-miller/2017/10/03/gun-violence-and-mental-illnessmyths-and-evidence-based-facts

 

The bolded sentence is a drum that I have been beating for quite some time. Just recently there was a story about a guy who murdered his three children and his ex's boyfriend. This was a guy with a history of abuse, both towards his spouse and his children. It's these types of otherwise "normal" people who need to be prohibited from owning firearms.

 

I'm not saying this will "fix" the firearm problem in the US, but it's a start and more importantly, it's a start that focuses on one of the actual causes of these incidents, rather than one that simply makes a convenient scapegoat.

 

By all means, increase funding for mental health issues. It's something that needed. It's just not a solution to gun violence.

The above uses 3-5% only, of gun violence is committed by individuals with mental health issues.

 

relative to the population of highschool age studensts in the US do those numbers not add up?

 

there must be something off in the mind of any individual who shoots up a school.

[thedestroyerofworlds]

2 hours ago, Rob_Zepp said:

Not sure about that - I think people just get tired of bad government.   They wanted change.   Obama really didn't do much of all as President to make the average person in the US any better off and that left a lot of people in the mood for vote for hope and change.   What they got?   Well, some are likely having buyer regret but polls indicate not as many as one may think.   

Six years of cocaine turtle Mitch and a GOP majority house played a major role did they not?

[kingofsurrey]

3 hours ago, Rob_Zepp said:

Not sure about that - I think people just get tired of bad government.   They wanted change.   Obama really didn't do much of all as President to make the average person in the US any better off and that left a lot of people in the mood for vote for hope and change.   What they got?   Well, some are likely having buyer regret but polls indicate not as many as one may think.   

That is a sad statement on humans.

[RUPERTKBD]

2 hours ago, riffraff said:

The above uses 3-5% only, of gun violence is committed by individuals with mental health issues.

 

relative to the population of highschool age studensts in the US do those numbers not add up?

 

there must be something off in the mind of any individual who shoots up a school.

There's something "off in the mind" of someone who beats up his wife and kids as well, however they don't fit the description of mentally ill. We just call them A-Holes...

 

The numbers don't lie. Mental Health is a convenient scapegoat, but it's an erroneous one.

[Toews]

6 hours ago, ForsbergTheGreat said:

The issue with the initial proposal was the definition of what was being considered mentally Ill. Infact they weren’t just focusing on mental health issues.  Something a simple as anyone who had financial troubles at one point in their life was being lumped into the same group as people with severe Schizophrenia.

 

Theres a reason why organization that’s are typically extremely anti gun were against the propsal. Not just any organizations, I’m talking about organizations that specialize in mental health.

 

Yes people with a history of mental illness need to be screened but you need more specific definitions and reasons why.  Sure it makes common sense that someone with a past of harming others or say a dissociative disorder, to not have the right to buy firearms. But what about someone with slight anxiety who’s prescribed medicinal weed. they technically fall in the grouping of someone with mental illness. Case by case there’s a large amount of context needed. 

 

Before someone uses the term common sense we should try to have a full understanding of the topic. Sometimes things just arent so black and white like the media likes to portray things. And again that’s part of the big problem. The media (both sides) isn’t trying to find resolution. They are just trying to pin sides against each other as it creates ratings. Instead people getting together to find common ground you get two sides digging trenches.  If an adult conversation (not just calling each other names or stating high level facts without context) could be had amongst the pro vs anti I truly do beleive you could find some movement on both sides.

 

even on this board I think people could find common ground (not that it has any effect and what the US does). But the discussions need to be kept civilized, relevant and people on both sides need to be not closed minded.

 

anyways. I’m on vacay now and likely won’t be able to reply for a few weeks but if a civilized discussion wants to be had about gun issues in the us im happy to engage in. 

 

If there are problems with the law then it can be suitably amended yet no attempt was made to do so.

 

And no attempt will be made to replace this law with something more effective. The NRA has Trump in their back pocket so he will sit their twiddling his thumbs while more kids keep dying.

[Rob_Zepp]

1 hour ago, thedestroyerofworlds said:

Six years of cocaine turtle Mitch and a GOP majority house played a major role did they not?

There is always excuses when on fails I guess.

[Rob_Zepp]

1 hour ago, kingofsurrey said:

That is a sad statement on humans.

Don't disagree at all.

[riffraff]

1 hour ago, RUPERTKBD said:

There's something "off in the mind" of someone who beats up his wife and kids as well, however they don't fit the description of mentally ill. We just call them A-Holes...

 

The numbers don't lie. Mental Health is a convenient scapegoat, but it's an erroneous one.

I tend to agree. I certainly agree with the first paragraph.

 

i presume that mental health is used as a scapegoat so that people can somehow rationalize/comprehend the extreme violence of its attached to some sort or medical/scientific reasonings.

 

 

[Kragar]

19 hours ago, Whaleroad Train said:

Another mass shooting occurs and once again the American public will refuse to see the real reason for it happening.  It's not the guns, nor is it the politicians.  It's the American attitude to the value of a human life.  If a criminal breaks into a man's house to steal a mobile phone, the home owner will quite willingly kill the thief to prevent this from happening.  The thief on the other hand will also be armed and quite happily kill the home owner to prevent him stopping the theft.  The public will see nothing wrong in the home owner killing to protect a $100 mobile phone.  The law will see nothing wrong with the home owner protecting his property.  This is America's problem.  As a race they now see another human's life as almost worthless. Until this changes then the killing will continue unabated.

I disagree with most of what you post here, but you're right: it's not guns, and it's not the politicians.  The worst (by body count) US school killing didn't even involve guns.  Some tweaks to the laws may help a little, but it is the societal issues that are the underlying problem.  Depression/hopelessness, numbness to violence, breakdown of families, standard of living, lack of socialization, to name a few.  WTF is wrong with some kids, thinking that this is how they want to make their mark?

[Alflives]

12 minutes ago, Kragar said:

I disagree with most of what you post here, but you're right: it's not guns, and it's not the politicians.  The worst (by body count) US school killing didn't even involve guns.  Some tweaks to the laws may help a little, but it is the societal issues that are the underlying problem.  Depression/hopelessness, numbness to violence, breakdown of families, standard of living, lack of socialization, to name a few.  WTF is wrong with some kids, thinking that this is how they want to make their mark?

Your last sentence is a good question.  Maybe the glorification of war and violence in American culture has a lot to do with kids committing these horrible crimes?  Maybe the blurring of the separation between criminal and hero in pop culture contributes too? 

[RUPERTKBD]

55 minutes ago, riffraff said:

I tend to agree. I certainly agree with the first paragraph.

 

i presume that mental health is used as a scapegoat so that people can somehow rationalize/comprehend the extreme violence of its attached to some sort or medical/scientific reasonings.

I think that's bang on. The worry is that people put all this focus on the mental health angle and overlook the real issues that lead to these mass shootings, including the fact that guns are far too easy to acquire in the US.

[Kragar]

Just now, Alflives said:

Your last sentence is a good question.  Maybe the glorification of war and violence in American culture has a lot to do with kids committing these horrible crimes?  Maybe the blurring of the separation between criminal and hero in pop culture contributes too? 

Could well be, yes.  How many of these kids who do this crap are outcasts/loners?  There's so much drama (real or not) when you're a teenager, it's easy to be overwhelmed by feelings.  Add into that the exposure to violence (news, movies, music, video games...) in culture, and the internet.  I guess family interactions play a big part in this.  If one has a decent relationship with parents, grandparents, and other adults in the family, that often means there are a number of moderating influences that tone down the moodiness of teens.  On the other hand, if one spends more time talking to other angsty kids, IMO especially over the internet where you lose so much of a personal nature, the drama gets magnified, perhaps being enough to push one over the edge?

[RUPERTKBD]

Other countries have teenagers who are "loners/outcasts". Other countries' kids are exposed to violence. Other countries have Internet and video games. Other countries have family troubles....

 

Yet the vast majority of these incidents happen in the US. There must be something about the US that makes these school shootings so commonplace. I wonder what it could be...