[Discussion] Our Weakest Link: Defense. Can We Afford to Lose Forwards for D Via Trades?

[Hairy Kneel]

Too many holes on D to add one player. This is a write off year so run with what we have, grab a UFA if we can at the end of the year.

Add OJ or Sauntner/Chatfield options, wait for Hughes and possibly Tryamkin. Maybe luck out and add Woo sooner than later.

[JeremyCuddles]

5 hours ago, billabong said:

i look at our D and just want to shake it like a etch a sketch and start over again

 

move del zotto and hutton for sure and maybe tanev and/or edler at the deadline then re-sign him in the summer

 

 

 

Actually never thought to do this, sign me up 100%. I always look at it like "move him or keep him". Why not both? Lol. 

[Blömqvist]

9 hours ago, coolboarder said:

We have Hughes in the wing, developing his game in NCAA and I can see him make the team as soon as he decide to sign with us, OJ is in Utica developing his game and should be up with the big club sooner than later, and Tryamkin has 2 season left from his KHL contract and just too far away for an immediate help.  We still see a big hole in our D and our forward group is set for years to come with great prospects in Lind, Dalhen, Gaudette, Gadjovich, and Palmu.   Woo is years away and we still don't know what Brisebois, Chatfield can bring to this club as MDZ, Pouliot and Edler are hurting this team with bad D zone coverage and giveaways.  If there's injury to Edler/Tanev, there's suddenly not enough depth as it happened last year.  

 

There are two options we can do: trade Sutter for a top 4 D or Horvat for a top D. If we were to trade away Horvat, we have Gaudette replacing Horvat if he pans out and I'd like to see a few games from Gaudette first before trading away Horvat.  If Gaudette does pan out, we can afford to lose a C for a top pairing D and bump down Edler in the depth chart.  I don't think Horvat has NTC or NMC so his value is at its highest.   So hence, my question is to you, what could we fetch for a D if we offer Horvat as a part of the deal?    What is he worth for a straight up one on one deal and who might this D be?  Petterson is a 1C for sure with Horvat being 2C if Petterson keeps it up for first two months.  The earlier we discuss this, the better the deal would be if it ever comes up in near future.    For now, the D is obvious the weakest link and we do not want to become an Oilers/Maple Leafs with great offense but bad defence.   I'm more interested in what we can get for Horvat and would it make any difference if we ever decide to make this move?  If Eriksson ever rebounds to his normal level by playing with Petterson, we can then get something from Eriksson next summer and his stock might rise again would also be an option.  

 

My answer: yes, we can afford to lose Horvat and still have Guadette as our 2C without missing any beat.   If any team is desparate for a 1C, let them think that Horvat is 1C in exchange for #1 D.   I just do not think that Horvat is 1C as proven when playing against a harder match-up.   

 

The best thing we can do is to hold onto both Horvat and Gaudette as our 2A centre and 2B centre, respectively, with Pettersson as our bonafide #1C. That way, moving forward we'll have one of the best centre groups in the league. 

 

The main thing here is that there are always teams in the playoff hunt that are looking to add a 3C at the deadline. So, at the deadline Benning should look at trading away Sutter for a defense prospect and call up Gaudette to play the remainder of the season in the 3C role. We wouldn't be adding immediate Top-4D help but we would add a player that can potentially play a Top-6D role for us this year and maybe might take a step next season or the year after.

 

One target that makes sense is Philadelphia's Philippe Myers. The Flyers have an abundance of defense prospects and good young defensemen on their team, so they have been patient with Myers' development. He is currently spending his second season in the AHL. Philadelphia's GM has said that they want to upgrade their centre depth by adding a defensive centre and Sutter just might fit the bill. 

[Zoolander]

I would say no. We can`t trade young forwards for defencemen right now. 

 

We don`t have enough proven forwards to make the deal and still be safe. 

 

This year, we should stockpile forwards and see which ones develop (whether it be in Van, Utica, USHL, etc). 

 

However, if we tank this year and get Hughes... then yea we`re set up front and can sell off some players up front.

[logic]

I would be trading guys like Gadjovich, Lind, Dahlen, Gaudette before Horvat 

[The Lock]

Right now, we have too much chaos in our roster period to really be worried about our defense. Outside of 3 or 4 forwards, we have little to no scoring. We have a weak defense and, what I would consider to be, the worst goalie tandem in the league currently (seriously, place Markstrom on another team and ask yourself if you would prefer Markstrom to their starter).

 

We don't have a couple of holes on defense to plug, our boat;s at the bottom of the lake in the middle of an archaeological site. Save the trades for a later time when we can actually benefit from filling holes.

[Brobidus]

The 2019 UFA potentials look interesting:
- Erik Karlsson is very unlikely to sign with us, seeing as we aren't contending and all that. But we can pay him, and we have Swedish Gretzky, so there I'm saying there is a chance. 
- Tyler Myers seems to have found his game again. But since Winnipeg is contending, allbeit they probably can't resign him, I'd put our chances to signing him at almost zero. He has no ties to Vancouver.

- Anton Stralman, I think is the prize of the UFA market this year. Tampa is going to be in deep cap hell at some point, and they have such riches on their D that maybe resigning Stralman might not be a big priority. Still think he is a decent #2 defensive D like Tanev. Having both him and Tanev, paired with Juolevi and Hughes next year could be really neat. 

 

The most important trades we need to do this year are that of our own UFA's. We need to get MDZ and Edler onto contenders. I still firmly believe that we can profit from resigning Edler to a 2-3 year contract after that, so if we promise him a spot on the team, he might be willing to leave his family for 3-4 months. He really still should be a huge commodity. But resigning him is a priority in my eyes as he would complete our three top 6 LHD. That said, we should also consider trading Hutton at the end of the year, unless he is comfortable being the 7th D. 

RHD are an expensive asset, so I don't see us being able to trade anything for one. Not even Horvat. One option would be Jeff Petry if the Canadiens really want to go into a rebuild, then there's Faulk (an offensive RHD is what we need), or a guy like Andrew MacDonald from the Flyers. But my issue is that we still have Tanev, Guddy and Stecher. We all know that we get another RHD, then Stecher would be the one coming out. So honestly, I want to see what they do this year. I want to see if they show that they can improve, and then make a decision next year. All the above acquisitions shouldn't cost us too much of the farm either.

[Canckelhead]

We could trade Eriksson, he's a top 6 guy and should fetch a good Dman

[Glug Datt]

I'd be curious if Horvat could fetch Fabbro + a reasonable pick...

 

still not sure I'd want to lose Bo

[Alflives]

6 minutes ago, Glug Datt said:

I'd be curious if Horvat could fetch Fabbro + a reasonable pick...

 

still not sure I'd want to lose Bo

Bo would return a Seth Jones level of D Mann.  Fabbro is not good enough.  

[TheGuardian_]

Rumblings that Pred's 2016 pick, RH dman, Dante Fabbro might be available. They failed to sign him and he becomes a FA at the end of the year, ala Vesey. Like Stecher he is/was a Canuck fan in his youth and like Vesey he has been saying all the right things BUT does Nashville want to take another chance? I am sure his agent/buddy/advisor/friends have pointed out the Preds D is established and set while a spot on the Canucks may/could/will be available almost immediately.

 

 

[J.I.A.H.N]

12 hours ago, janisahockeynut said:

I think you have to take a look at the whole picture

 

1. We have a pretty good stable of young forwards

2. We have a pretty strong future group of Defensemen

3. Our rebuild is not over yet....give us this year and next, then if you can't see the light of day, then make a big trade

 

So ………….

Thought  #1, which no one has answered me as of yet. Can Tryamkin's contract be bought out?

Thought #2 We keep Horvat

Thought #3 We draft Kappo

 

How does our Defense look when our forwards mature, and always have the puck...……...

 

Hughes   Tryamkin

Edler       Gudbranson

Juolevi     Tanev

Briseboise  Stecher

Saunter    Chatfield

 

To me this seems like a pretty decent top 10 Defensive Pool

 

My dream is we move Baertschi (2nd), Sutter (2nd), MDZ (4th), Hutton (3rd), Pouliot (3rd), Nilsson(7th), Biega(5th) all for picks at the TDL, yes some will be for high picks, I don't care

 

Graduate who we can, and  bring back Tryamkin, sign Hughes, and hopefully bring up Guadette and Demko all at the end of the year

 

As for Horvat for a better Dman...…..I would rather just continue the rebuild

 

But Value? Horvat = Trouba………….IMO, but neither are going anywhere

IMO, all the above hi-lited players can be replaced internally or through UFA, and I think by the TDL, you could see

 

Baertschi traded and replaced by Dahlen

Sutter traded and replaced by Gaudette

MDZ traded and replaced by Juolevi

and we would not see much if any, drop in play

 

I think with the addition of Beagle, Rousell, and Schaller, and the defensive awareness of rookies, Pettersson and Gaudette, Sutter is expendable

I would also say that we could move Baertschi as short term, we can fill his void with Goldobin or Dahlen, and long term we can draft his replacement (Kappo, PLZ)

I also think that MDZ at 50% at the TDL, is marketable, and it is the 50% caphit that gives him value (maybe even a 3rd rounder)

Hutton still has some value as he is young and did enter the league with a good showing his first year...he is also a RFA

Pouliot is versatile, and would have some value, maybe less than a 3rd

Might not get anything for Nilsson, and it might be prudent to keep Biega, although he would be a great addition for a playoff team......I kinda hope for him to traded for him

 

Anyways......still would not want Horvat traded...….but no one is untouchable

[vannuck59]

11 minutes ago, janisahockeynut said:

Baertschi traded and replaced by Dahlen

Sutter traded and replaced by Gaudette

MDZ traded and replaced by Juolevi

and we would not see much if any, drop in play

Hey Im down with this , Trade one of these guys and I would be Happy , Trade for Fabbro  and I would Be ecstatic 

[smithers joe]

these are good future trades, but they need to wait till the new guys are ready to take on prime time. till then we go with what we have.

[Phil_314]

I'm curious as to why there's the idea that trading a currently point-per-game, 18 minutes a night guy in Horvat won't be greatly detrimental to the team, esp. when the proposed replacement for him is a currently AHL-caliber player in Gaudette.  It's not like Adam's the second coming of Claude Giroux at this point in that we could deal Horvat and have the team not miss a beat.  

 

Secondly, pretty sure I am not the only one who thinks that when it comes to finding potential top-4 fits that Hutton should at least get a shot.  Aside from a gaffe in pre-season he's looked much quicker and solid defensively, yet Green has him stapled to the press box.  It's not like either of Del Zotto or Pouliot have found the score sheet either so I hope that the team at least gives him a chance because sometimes the most effective ways to add could be internally, at least in this case.  Ben is not a bad option and he should at least cycle in during this road trip, 1) to keep guys fresh and 2) to see who may have the most top-4 long-term potential.    

[Rim Jobson]

13 hours ago, vannuck59 said:

Once again its not our goaltending its our defense .

So you believe our goaltending duo of Markstrom and Nilsson is at least adequate. That's ok - I beg to differ, and I hope Benning does too. Even with a better defense I wouldn't trust either of these goalies we have right now.

[Ojibwa72]

My thoughts are move MDZ and Edler at the deadline for prospects/picks to move up the young ones IF THEY ARE READY. Then in the offseason or next season move Tanev for prospect/picks to keep some experience at the back end. The forward group has looked good so far and will need experience and depth for injuries. I would only try to move someone in their final year of their contracts for a return unless someone comes forward with an offer too good to refuse. We are finally starting to build a core and get a prospect pool. No need to rush. Slow and steady wins the race (ex. the Jets will be a force for years with what they have done there). Also move Nilsson at this years deadline too even if its just picks.

[TheGuardian_]

Prospects should be packaged and traded before they lose the "prospective talent" possibility. Once they lose that then they are just a player and in most cases lose value.

A prospect, is Cassel's still a prospect? Leipsic and Motte are still considered prospects by some posters.

 

How long before they don't have value? An example, OJ as a #5 overall pick had huge trade value the 1rst year, the 2nd year he still had slightly less value, this his draft + 3 season, unless he makes a "noise" he is being considered in the league, as a failed #5 pick especially if undrafted or later round picks keep surpassing him. His draft number still has value in a trade for marketing but expectations of him being a top 2 dman have plummeted and so is his trade value.  

 

The team doesn't need to win a trade in that case, but a package sounds good when "included is the #5 pick". 

[Rob_Zepp]

11 hours ago, The Lock said:

Right now, we have too much chaos in our roster period to really be worried about our defense. Outside of 3 or 4 forwards, we have little to no scoring. We have a weak defense and, what I would consider to be, the worst goalie tandem in the league currently (seriously, place Markstrom on another team and ask yourself if you would prefer Markstrom to their starter).

 

We don't have a couple of holes on defense to plug, our boat;s at the bottom of the lake in the middle of an archaeological site. Save the trades for a later time when we can actually benefit from filling holes.

Wow, really?   Do you watch other teams?

[Alflives]

21 minutes ago, TheGuardian_ said:

Prospects should be packaged and traded before they lose the "prospective talent" possibility. Once they lose that then they are just a player and in most cases lose value.

A prospect, is Cassel's still a prospect? Leipsic and Motte are still considered prospects by some posters.

 

How long before they don't have value? An example, OJ as a #5 overall pick had huge trade value the 1rst year, the 2nd year he still had slightly less value, this his draft + 3 season, unless he makes a "noise" he is being considered in the league, as a failed #5 pick especially if undrafted or later round picks keep surpassing him. His draft number still has value in a trade for marketing but expectations of him being a top 2 dman have plummeted and so is his trade value.  

 

The team doesn't need to win a trade in that case, but a package sounds good when "included is the #5 pick". 

How old is OJ, 20?

He reminds me of Vlascic (sp?) in SJ.  He’s going to be quietly a very good top four Dman